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Consider this, for the last 20 years world military spending has averaged around a trillion dollars each year. With the USA spending over 40% of this. Compared with this is the amount of money the USA has spend on cancer research in 2008, a paltry 5.3 million dollars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
But we wouldn't have to research cancer if it didn't exist. And if there was a God that cared about his creation then why would he make cancer in the first place, or the plague, or Aids, or any of the diseases out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by elscarta
This is not a man made problem, cancer is a disease and we did nothing to cause it, but we're stuck with it and people are dying on a daily basis. I'm wiling to bet that there's not one person on this earth that hasn't either lost a loved one to cancer or knows someone that has. It's hit all of us. If God really cared then why won't he put an end to it or at least give us a cure? Why? Because he walked away a long time ago and we have to fend for ourselves.
Yes, a lot of the suffering in the world today is because of choices we human beings make, but not disease.
He didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Of course, we did and do every day. Scientists and environmentalists are finding out more and more each day about how we poison ourselves and the result is cancer (among other problems). Plastics alone are the scourge of the earth. And who invented plastics? It wasn't God.Quote:
This is not a man made problem, cancer is a disease and we did nothing to cause it
Let's pretend God ends cancer and AIDS and MS and all those other diseases. Then what would you do?Quote:
If God really cared then why won't he put an end to it or at least give us a cure?
Of course, it is our choices that cause disease. A month ago I was in the CCU of an area hospital. I had two bleeding ulcers and was given blood transfusions. Did God give me those ulcers? No, they were my fault.
WG, I understand what you're saying, but I have to say, both my parents died of cancer and they lived very healthy lives.
I grew up eating food grown in their garden. Neither one of them smoked, they took their vitamins, they believed in herbal remedies, not drugs, we took walks together, went camping together. They loved nature and all the things that this beautiful world has to offer. Chemicals, synthetics, they weren't a part of our lives and yet they both died of cancer.
How was this cancer their fault? This is one of the many things that haunts me. My husbands mother smoked two packs a day and outlived both my parents. She ate canned meat, store bought bread, vegetables sprayed with pesticides and never took care of herself or the world around her. My parents did, but they died. My dad was 60, my mother 63.
George Burns lived to be 100, and he smoked, drank, and carried on...Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Your parents didn't have to DO anything in order to get cancer. They were residents of this earth; that was good enough. Maybe their immune systems couldn't handle something environmentally unfriendly that they came in contact with, breathed in, or ate. We don't know. But to blame God is not the way to explain it.
Environmentalists say that some facial cleansers have tiny, nearly invisible, balls of plastic in them to help with exfoliation. When the user washes her face, those tiny balls go down the drain and into the sewer system and eventually work their way to the ocean where they sink to the bottom. Plankton and other small creatures eat them as they vacuum up the ocean floor, not realizing the glossy balls are not food. The tiny plastic balls don't get digested but just sit inside the gut of these sea creatures that are eaten by bigger sea creatures that are eaten by even bigger sea creatures. Eventually fishermen catch some of those sea creatures that are now carrying lots of those tiny balls inside them. Depending on where those balls have wandered inside the sea creature, humans who eat those sea creatures will also eat those tiny balls. We don't know yet the effects those tiny plastic balls have on humans, but, like other poisons we eat in the form of additives and insecticides and waste products, they probably don't help us much and may turn out to be another reason why humans get cancer.
More on plastic -- A mass of plastic garbage that is floating in the Pacific Ocean and covering an area larger than Texas is killing marine life and growing larger each day.
Frankly Green: Video: Plastic Forms Pacific Ocean Death Zone
And plastic is only one of the environmental concerns that cause disease.
How is the cancer God's fault?Quote:
How was this cancer their fault?
As I mentioned in my last post a paltry amount of money is spent on cancer research compared to military spending. I firmly believe that we could have cured all types of cancer by now and probably most other diseases, if research was better funded. Read the link below to see where research into cancer is heading.
2009 Nobel Prize for Medicine
But even if all disease could be eradicated we would all still eventually die. Death is part of the human condition. So why does it matter so much what the cause of death is?
Life certainly is not fair. Some are dealt Royal Flushes, while others not even a pair, but it is not the hand that you are dealt with that matters, but how you play it!
You can't blame God (or anyone/anything/situation) for all your problems or losses (if you believe in God) and I know it is hard not to be angry with him with all these things but maybe praying and trying to make the best of things is the best way to go. Cancer, AIDS and all this stuff isn't his fault - "he knows we are doomed and so is a very patient God and a very forgiving one". He knows our frustrations but again, he didn't plan it out that way, things just happen - once you stop being angry with yourself, situation and God you will find some new inner strength. I think some posts have been missed and that one which I am thinking (which I completely agree with) is firmbelievers... stop blaming God and blame Mankind.
True, and so far I think I'm playing my hand pretty well.Quote:
Life certainly is not fair. Some are dealt Royal Flushes, while others not even a pair, but it is not the hand that you are dealt with that matters, but how you play it!
Yes, I've had a lot of hardship, loss, hurt, but compared to many others I'm very lucky. I have a wonderful husband, two beautiful children, life is pretty good.
I do understand what both of you are saying, I just don't think that what you are saying points to a God that cares about the humans on this earth.
Deism still makes the most sense to me. I will always question, because that's how I am. If I find evidence that my belief is wrong, trust me, I'll rethink it. So far that evidence hasn't been found so I will continue in my belief and continue questioning that very same belief.
I'd love to have faith, truly I would, I just don't. One of the main reasons for my lack of faith is not the disease, the hardship but the bible. I will never read the bible and believe that the stories inside are real. I'm sure there's some truth in the stories, but I'm also sure those stories were extremely overblown. The men who wrote it were after all just men.
That's just it, I don't blame God, nor am I angrey at him, because I don't believe that he is the cause of all of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxaprilwine
I think you're all missing my point.
I brought up disease not because I think God created it, but because I think it's proof that God doesn't intervene in our lives.
I can't blame God because I don't believe he meddles in our affairs. I believe he created this world and then he walked away. He can't be bothered with his creation.
I do blame mankind for the disease that my parents died of. Did it hurt when they died, hell yes, and it still hurts today, but to blame God would be silly because he didn't do anything to them. Am I making my belief clear? Somehow I think I didn't explain myself very well if you think I'm angry with God. Let me assure you, I'm not, there's no reason to be.
How can you not be blaming God when you say "God created it" when he didn't - cancer is caused by all the lovely toxins we created. God DOES desert non-believers, but he is forgiving and patient (since our lives here are like a drop of water to the ocean compared to eternity).Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Hey at least you believe in something and it works for you :)
Again, I think something was lost in translation.Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxaprilwine
My point was, if God does intervene in our lives, like theists believe, then why doesn't he do anything about cancer and other diseases?
This is why I believe that God does not intervene, because the loving, caring God of the bible doesn't make any sense considering all the disease and evil in the world.
I never said that God created cancer, that was an example of why I choose to believe in Deism.
As for God being forgiving and patient, that's what you believe and it's your right, but that's not what I believe.
So no, I don't blame God because I don't believe that he does anything for the people on this earth or against them. My posts were examples, not my belief. Do you understand?
I have an article concerning cancers. They may have found a cure ;)
Cancer Man - Forbes.com
Just saying.
I get it but you kind of confused me because first you say why he doesn't intervene but with that statement you said he created cancer. Isn't that intervention? That doesn't make sense…why would he create something wonderful then destroy it with viruses and diseases when he doesn't interfere? Oh and as per the bible - which you don't believe (and have a right to) it says that as soon as Eve bit the apple (Temptation) that the perfect world was born to sin - evils influence. Kind of like the Ying and Yang, Positive/Negative charges... there must be balance and you can't obtain that one without the other. I do agree that the suffering is horrible... that it is a test of faith but I do believe in God's promise. You believe you can control certain aspects of your life; you can't help for bad things happening but you definitely do your part to help and that is a greenie. You said:Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
This clearly points out that you are still angry with regression from the past. I know it isn't easy, I was a victim of sexual assault at 14 by someone who was my friend and it is horrible but it isn't God's fault for allowing it – it's that jerk that took advantage over you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
I gave birth to two as well and just because I created it doesn't mean I am going to leave, even when they get older and make decisions (without me being overbearing – as I am protective too) without my consent – I can't control their decisions or stop bad things from happening or control any direction in their life but I can provide guidance just as God does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Strive to be honest, abide by the 10 commandments (which seem pretty easy) and be nice to your neighbor and give thanks for what you have. Do unto others as you would like do to you. It isn't a lot God is asking but I would like to know what it is you think is so difficult about it. Life does happen and no one is perfect – we are all born sinful and God knows that. That is why he is patient and forgiving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
You point out that God does not intervene; so he isn't intervening by providing us with Cancer, AIDS, Murder, Famine – these sound like mankind issues. God can't control a murder – the person committing the crime is sinful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Ants are a bad example because they are not given the natural resources we have…if they are given the natural resources such as the ant hill in my front yard then yes they will survive. Same with the bird house…the bird house does not have the ability to sustain the birds…if a bird makes a nest to have her babies, she feeds them, guides them, then they fly away…every year the mom comes back to have more babies – the procreation and general process of life. If the nest falls with the mother and eggs because some kid knocked it off and the eggs got smashed – is it Gods fault for letting it happen or is the kid's? Does the God have control to stop a sinful child? No, your right, no intervention but for every action there is a consequence or result – maybe the eggs are food for another species and the boy felt awful about what he had done. If he doesn't and he continues to be destructive then we have punishment for people like that here – or sometime down the road good Karma will pay him back (Do on to others as you would like done to you). There is punishment whether on this plain or the next.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Cancer causing agents and all other are apart of the Virus family. We have horrible immune systems and maintain the position of remaining on the bottom of the food chain since we can become susceptible. The only thing that keeps us on top is the ability to develop technology, housing, roads, Cities and weapons to maintain our position….unfortunately that does not protect us from the Virus and Bacteria family. Maybe if we didn't have casual (or other forms of immoral acts) sex less people would be infected by AIDS. Maybe if we didn't develop technology with so much radiation (even Granite counter tops) and expose ourselves to it our generations wouldn't be either. I am sure you know the answer to this: Does cancer change the molecular structure of red blood cells? If it does, is that how its passed down? Becomes a gene? My mom grew up in a small country and they lived to 90... even though now they say our lives our lengthiness - I don't agree with that... we are getting sick. What about this H1N1? Spanish flu? It sucks but it isn't God's creation; it just is. I still think if God does not intervene (as you suggest) then he would not plague us either – as that is intervention on its own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
And you are entitled to believe in just that as me to my beliefs. I do agree with you that God will not intervene in mankind affairs... I just don't believe he left. Am I still missing the point? Please correct me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
I don't think you're missing the point so much as you're reading too much into what I said.
Did you read the definition of Deism that I posted in the OP? That is my belief. I believe that because, to me, there is no evidence that God intervenes in our every day lives.
I tried giving examples of why I believe this, but apparently my examples have lead to confusion. My bad.
Yes, the ant farm was a bad example, maybe the bird house was too, so I'll try again but I won't use an example this time.
My belief is that God, being a God, created (with the help of science) this world that we live in. He made the sky, the earth, the trees, the animals and he may have even put a few humans on this planet he made. After he was done he walked away. There really was no reason to stay, he gave us and his other creations everything we need in order to survive, and survive we have.
A theist believes that God cares about us, that he answers prayers, he listens to us, he loves us. To me, the state of this world is more then enough proof that he doesn't. You don't agree and that's fine. I simply can't see how a caring God, one powerful enough to create the world and everything in it, would let the people, that the bible claims he loves, suffer.
I know what causes cancer, I know that the state of the world is our doing. The people on this earth have ruined the earth, more proof to me that God just walked away after giving us this place.
I really don't know how to make it clearer then that.
I think the problem with explaining this is the fact that you are a theist. When you read my posts you read them with God in mind, with the belief that God loves you and cares for you. It's hard to understand what I'm saying because you can't fathom not believing what you do. You can't understand my belief, therefore you cannot understand my reasoning.
It's a lack of understanding because we're on two different sides of the coin.
Xoxaprilwine makes the following point regarding her two children.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
God "lets" people suffer for the same reason that parents "let" their children suffer when they make their own decisions as the get older. No-one accuses parents of not caring about their children or not doing enough to alleviate their suffering, so why do you use a different set of criteria for God?Quote:
even when they get older and make decisions (without me being overbearing – as I am protective too) without my consent – I can’t control their decisions or stop bad things from happening or control any direction in their life but I can provide guidance just as God does.
I've already answered this.Quote:
God "lets" people suffer for the same reason that parents "let" their children suffer when they make their own decisions as the get older. No-one accuses parents of not caring about their children or not doing enough to alleviate their suffering, so why do you use a different set of criteria for God?
If I, as a parent, had the power to cure my child of an illness, I would. If God, all powerful, powerful enough to create the world, really was involved in our every day lives, how could he let his children die of diseases that he could cure?
I am a parent as well and yes, I do believe that my children need to make mistakes and learn from them. Some of those mistakes will cause suffering. But, if my children were about to make a mistake that could cost them their lives, you better believe I'd step in and stop them.
I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye, simply because of our beliefs. You cannot understand my faith anymore then I can understand yours.
I'm not saying you're wrong to have faith. If you have it and it brings you comfort then that's great. The thing you all don't understand is that my faith also brings me comfort, it makes sense to me. I've never seen any evidence of a God that intervenes, therefore I don't believe he does. That's just the way it is, for me.
I did read the definition. So, I stand and have, that if there is no proof of his influence to you then equally there is proof of his influence to others. I am sorry if I read too much into it; but maybe that's what I meant to say. Yes of course my life experience and beliefs will be equally be as responsive as yours. I don't mean to challenge you and maybe I should stay away from religious or conversations about God - hehe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
I don't think God made the world with the help of science - but that he created science and we are discovering it. We are becoming God - creating people from cells, destroying and giving life. Survival of the fittest isn't easy... neither is our ego (conscious or unconscious) - we are always battling ourselves.
This sounds bad but the reality is from the moment we are born we are destined to die. It does not matter how we die - you know a lot about death and suffering just as you know about life and love and it is true. Our bodies are constantly working for us to live and even in the times of hopelessness your heart still beats on... sometimes the power of love - keeps us alive; sometimes there is no way to help at all. Some people deteriorate physically, mentally and psychologically because of depression/stress and being alone. Maybe from life experiences... and so you believe we have the power to change that... I agree, but we can only control so much and if we are persistent on controlling things then we become the very thing we don't want to be... tired, stressed and disappointed. Sometimes for some people it is easier to give up your control to God and trust that things will work out in the end and they usually do.
I also agree that we have the power (inner strength) to change our lives/thoughts/reality by striving for it... working hard towards your goals... obtaining the fruits of your labor. So many people wait around for good things to happen but do nothing about it... your efforts are only as good as your reward. So, if the bum on the street would rather pan handle for their living expenses then work as an honest man (pending he has the ability to work) then he will not succeed... he will not have the right to say "God, why have you punished me" when in fact he could not help himself. Energy is an amazing thing... it is amazing to see what we are all capable if we just did it and gave thanks... which is what you are doing. :)
So we are horrible... but this type of thing/discussion really stimulates a healthy exchange of idea's... this is why humans don't get along - fear even fear of being misunderstood. Some countries seek war and death to others simply because of this... it isn't God, I always blame mankind for its greed and lust for land/money/unhealthy-selfish power or material assets. Regardless, whatever gives you "personal" power or hope right? I must admit I do love these talking about this and I honestly don't think I am right you are wrong or visa versa... I am enjoying the perspectives.
I think you've made your point very clearly, Altenweg. I don't say that I agree with it, but you have been very clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Where I have issue is when you say that the state of the world is such that it constitutes proof (for you) that God is not involved in the day-to-day operations of the world. The way I see it, the exact opposite is true.
Despite the fact that there is suffering, despite all the wars, hunger, strife, pain, etc. we are still here. The fact that we survived the Cold War, where two very powerful political bodies that hated each other and where both had the weapons necessary to destroy the world over 100 times each just by pressing a button... the fact that we survived that 45+ year nightmare and are here to talk about it is, in my mind, proof that there is a G-d who is looking out for us and keeping us from completely destroying ourselves.
Israel's continued existence is, in my opinion, another such proof. Despite having been attacked by 20 sepparate nations at once on multiple occasions, despite literally THOUSANDS of missile and rocket and mortar attacks every year for years on end, despite the horrific terrorist attacks against them that were the per-capital equivalent of a 9/11 attack every day for several years on end (in terms of casualty rates), despite STILL being surrounded on all sides by beligerent enemies, despite having to deal with a UN that sanctions them for their very existence... despite all the odds stacked against them, Israel continues to survive and thrive, becoming the most powerful military and economic force in their region of the world... without having any oil resources to rely on. That, to me, is proof of the existence of a G-d that is watching out for his Chosen People.
Interestingly, there is a story of a Colonel in the US Army that was Jewish. He went to the Army War College at West Point as part of his senior officers' training. While there, he participated in a class where a General was teaching strategy and tactics... specifically strategies and tactics for combat situations in which your command is outnumbered and outgunned. Naturally they went over some of the most famous battles in history... Thermopolae, Hannibal, Napoleon, and George Washington were all studied as examples of the right things to do. Custer, of course, was covered as an example of what NOT to do (as he should be). At the end of the class, the Colonel walked over to the General and asked him why he didn't use any of the famous battles fought by Israel. They ought to have been perfect examples of "forlorn hopes" that were won by the smaller military. The General took the Colonel to his office, closed the door so that nobody would hear what he said, and explained as follows: "I am a military officer. I am trained in the most advanced strategies, tactics and methods of bringing death and destruction to the enemy currently known to mankind. I have been charged by my superiors to teach these methods to you and your classmates. We do not teach about Israeli battles because no man can ever duplicate the impossible feats that Israel has accomplished in battle. Such accomplishments could only have happened through divine intervention. The War College teaches tactics and strategy. It doesn't teach miracles."
Just a story, but I think it makes an interesting point.
What you see as evidence that G-d doesn't interfere, I see as evidence that he does.
Just a thought.
Elliot
Excuse my ignorance, but why are you spelling God with a "-"?Quote:
Originally Posted by ETWolverine
Yes but you can't control people, places or things at all times. His influence is in you, in me, in your neighbor right now, being a good person and committing good deeds, he is there to provide guidance not stop the dying or the wicked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
What would you learn if he solved all your problems?
How could you become stronger if there where mistakes or deaths?
To watch someone else die sometimes gives you a reason to live... to make the same mistakes or make better ones... to feed the basic human emotion. Either our experience softens us or hardens us... but that is the beauty of choice and the beauty of life. The fact of life... people are born and people die.
His influence isn't in me, that's your belief. People influence me, not God. No, I don't have control over others, I only have control over myself. I also don't need God in order to be a good person or commit good deeds, again, that's your belief, not mine.Quote:
Yes but you can't control people, places or things at all times. His influence is in you, in me, in your neighbor right now, being a good person and committing good deeds, he is there to provide guidance not stop the dying or the wicked.
I don't expect him to solve all my problems, in fact, I know he won't, because I don't believe he interferes with our lives. As for what I'd learn, well, I'd learn that you're right and I'm wrong.Quote:
What would you learn if he solved all your problems?
Yes they do. What does that have to do with God though?Quote:
The fact of life... people are born and people die.
It's a good thought. :)Quote:
Just a story, but I think it makes an interesting point.
What you see as evidence that G-d doesn't interfere, I see as evidence that he does.
Just a thought.
I've seen and been involved in things that are miraculous as well, but miracles because of God? I simply don't think that's the case.
I'm really not trying to say that I'm right. I'm not asking you all to forget what you believe and come to the dark side. ;) I'm simply trying to clarify my beliefs.
I think it's great that you look at the world and see only good in it, see God's creation and God's plan. I don't see that. Not that I think the world is bad, well, not my little corner of it.
I get the feeling that you all seem to think I'm missing out on something because I don't have your faith. Trust me, I'm not. I lead a very good life. I don't need the threat or the promise of the bible to be a good person. I also don't need a theist faith in order to be fulfilled and happy.
I found my place in this world, and I'm happy with it.
Like I said, I'll never stop questioning, and I know you have all tried to provide some answers, but what you all have said isn't anything I haven't heard before. Trust me, 10 years of Catholic school, I'm very well versed in that belief system. ;)
My original post was for Sndbay, because she asked a question that I felt deserved an answer, but I didn't want to hijack the thread we were on. This now seems to have turned into a "convert Alty" session. I know it's not being done with anything but your best intentions, I really do, but honestly, there really isn't anything you all could say that I haven't already considered.
We simply don't see eye to eye.
Alty,Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
I understand your point of view that for you it does not make sense to believe a Creator who created and gave the creation rules to live by and that there are consequences for each action.
But when you compare the Almighty to a parent I think is the wrong perspective as you seem to think that a theist believes,maybe some do think of the Almighty that way,but not me.
A parent is given the gift of a child, a blessing, a duty and honor to be a parent.
And we have to make the best choices for the child not knowing what the future holds and hope for the best that it turns out all right for our children.When they suffer we wish to cure them,to make everything that is bad,wrong,ugly go away from their lives because we cannot bear to see them suffer even for a few minutes.
The Almighty as I believe is All-Knowing-which would mean that the actions of the Creator is according to the knowledge of the past,present and future of that person. When a human suffers the All-Aware Creator I believe in knows exactly what is wrong in the physical body of the person or what is right in the spiritual body/soul of the person.
When the soul of a person leaves the physical self I believe that the Creator knows exactly the state of the person's heart.Which we as the ones left behind do not know.
I remember reading about in one thread on another Topic;
About a tree falling in the forest and if it makes a sound when it falls even if there is no one around, well I believe the Creator does know exactly why it fell and the consequences of the falling tree since before it was a seed till it becomes part of the dust and more.
.
Wow, some unavoidable points here as presented by Elliot. Simply at it's best: "What does not kill you makes you stronger" even if it is at the cost of millions…there is always a result and hope got them there.Quote:
Originally Posted by sGt HarDKorE
(Maybe her fingers are long or her keyboard is broken - blame it on God!! - That was childish of me :) - there is a "child-in-me")
God gives life and God takes it away. If you believe God breeds life (then he continues to bless us today) and you believe in the destruction of life via Cancer and AIDS or other human tragedies (which in your most recent post said now that it is our fault) then I guess he takes it away too right? He is responsible for the creation and destruction because of his ignorance to mankind - he left. What does God have to do with life and death then? What has been discussed in the post is a direct result of this point - unless death from Cancer, AIDS, War, Politics, Crime, Murder, Children have not been discussed at some point? Am I lost? If you don't believe in God then this point is completely irrelevant. You believe God created it, left it and walked away. I don't believe that but you do... so be it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
I don't care about you being influenced about God - because it is not your belief but rather it is unfortunate that you are influenced by people. I think you even stated that you believe in being deist but could change your belief in that later (if you discover that it isn't correct). I also said being a good person is proof that there is good in us or take the extra "o" out which is "God".
You know he won't solve your problems because he hasn't rescued you yet. As you have had personal and very, very, very unfortunate circumstances in your life where things did not get resolved by prayer, you lost hope…and you are entitled to that. But look how strong you are today and what you can do to help someone else in a similar situation out. You still live in fear for your children. You don't believe he interferes but you believe he created the mess and just left. Fine, he isn't there – but he never helped out in the first place with these mass amount of mistakes human error has done alone.
NO, I am not right and you are not wrong - difference of opinions and beliefs... I am stating mine as you yours. You are challenging me just as much as I am challenging you; so realistically no one is better then anyone. I am enjoying this discussion very vibrantly.
And I will leave it at that – because that's good for you. I am sure if I posted (about being Catholic... I would get responses too :)) but you don't need to explain your beliefs to anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
This is a nice perspective but she is not as easily influenced by other people as she say's and is stronger then she claims not to be :).Quote:
Originally Posted by firmbeliever
xoxaprilwine,
I am not trying to influence Alty,
I am just trying to tell her that not all theists think the same way about the parent-God comparison she was drawing.
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by firmbeliever
She knows all about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
She doesn't want to hear about it anymore. She moved on. But I liked it and agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Hi Sarge,Quote:
Originally Posted by sGt HarDKorE
It's a Jewish thing.
In Judaism, we have a tradition to not take G-d's name in vain (meaning without a specific purpose in prayer or blessing) as a sign of respect and awe. This applies to the written word as well as the spoken word.
(The original prohibition against verbal misuse of G-d's name is from the 10 Commandments, but there is a Rabbinical component to the tradition as well, in terms of the written usage of G-d's name.)
If I were speaking to a fellow Jew, I would probably use the term "Hashem" which is not a name of G-d, but rather means "The Name" (or in Harry Potter terminology "He Who Shall Not Be Named"). :)
Since I am NOT speaking ot other Orthodox Jews, I am using the name of G-d most commonly used in the Western world. But in keeping with my religious tradition, I am not spelling out the name in full.
I have no expectation that anyone else would or should follow this tradition. Nor am I offended by anyone else who spells out the word in full as is proper in their own tradition. I follow my religious beliefs, and I am happy when others do the same for their own. So I hope that nobody will feel some sort of obligation toward me... that is most certainly not my intent.
I hope that explains it.
Interesting, so it's the Western way of going about talking about it! I guess we learn something everyday! I am sorry, I guess your fingers weren't too long and your keyboard is working. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ETWolverine
God gave us the Universe and then walked away. There is no giving and taking, that's still your belief, not mine.Quote:
God gives life and God takes it away. If you believe God breeds life (then he continues to bless us today) and you believe in the destruction of life via Cancer and AIDS or other human tragedies (which in your most recent post said now that it is our fault) then I guess he takes it away too right?
From a Deist position, nothing.Quote:
What does God have to do with life and death then?
Again, that's your belief, not mine. You're still stuck on what you believe, you haven't listened to a word of what I've said, you've just tried to twist it to prove your point.Quote:
You know he won't solve your problems because he hasn't rescued you yet
This I do agree with. :)Quote:
And I will leave it at that – because that's good for you. I am sure if I posted (about being Catholic... I would get responses too ) but you don't need to explain your beliefs to anyone.
I value our differences. It's not that I don't want to hear about it, it's that I feel I'm not being heard.Quote:
She doesn't want to hear about it anymore. She moved on. But I liked it and agree.
You still post as if you're talking to a Christian that just lost her way. I haven't. I'm not a Christian, I probably never will be again. I haven't lost my way, I found it and it works for me. Until I find proof that completely disproves what I believe, Deism is what I will stick with.
You keep trying to bring God into my life in your way, you still don't understand my way. Maybe you don't want to understand, maybe it's me, maybe I'm not being clear enough.
So you got my last point and if your happy now then it's good. I have accepted it... because if it is good enough for you then so be it; I might be a little rigid around the corner but I guess I have my belief too :). I was trying to end the cycle of "having to prove your point and be clear" so you don't feel "Alty conversion". When I said "She doesn't want to hear it. She has moved on."... it is redundant. I am one of those that look at small details so sorry; I am just pointing out what you say and how it compiles. My intention was not to make you look lost... maybe I needed clarification.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
I don't have to agree either, but we can acknowledge that the position is understood. I am stubborn because I do believe God cares, loves us, forgives us, is patient with us and will answer our prayers... just not in the way we want. You believe God created the world and left us to prosper or decay - leaving us to be on our own/making our life and living it to the fullest extent in those means. It is true that we have the power to change our lives and take ownership over it. So mankind should assume ownership over these issues brought up in this post with worldly/human matters... not God! That is all I am saying... he isn't responsible for tragic deaths, Cancer or AIDS, human wars, conflicts, crime etc. we are responsible as a global generalization and especially the tyrants committing crime (sin). Which is something you recently agreed to.
Here is an idea I would like your opinion on as a Deist: You need proof God intervenes; what proof do you need to know God even exists? Maybe nothing really exists at all. We came to be and are... so why even bring God into the equation? I read the link but still can't come up with a concept that makes sense to me in that matter. Just like you might see the Bible as not making sense - "man made stories". Only thing that does is our human history - so why blame some creator of the Universe for our problems? We see how history just repeats itself.
That's why there are scientists and idealists (philosophers) in this world - do we believe their theories because "they" exist... where did they come up with these ideas. Did everything start with an idea? If you challenge the fact that we need proof God's intervention on earth (or not) then you are challenging Gods existence in some sense right? Or no? What is the reason behind that? Do we just give idea's and concepts or theories life (or faith)(or hope)(or science) by believing in it then proving it? What if we can't prove it but know it exists in our hearts? Is it just an idea or is it real to that person? Well real to that person I guess... whatever keeps us going.
I'm just as stubborn about my beliefs, which is where the problem of understanding each other begins. You can't accept my way any more then I can accept yours, but we are discussing this rationally and that counts for a lot. Most times, when religious beliefs are discussed, it becomes a fight. This conversation has not. The respect is there from both sides and that makes all the difference.Quote:
I am stubborn because I do believe God cares, loves us, forgives us, is patient with us and will answer our prayers... just not in the way we want.
I see no proof that God intervenes. What you believe is necessary in order for us to grow, I see as cruel. For me, if God did intervene, the world would be very different.Quote:
You need proof God intervenes; what proof do you need to know God even exists? Maybe nothing really exists at all. We came to be and are... so why even bring God into the equation? I read the link but still can't come up with a concept that makes sense to me in that matter.
Why do I believe there is a God that created all of this? Because science alone doesn't explain it. Every complex thing in this world is just too amazing to have been formed without some higher power having a hand in it. I do believe God created this beautiful world. I don't think he intended for all the bad, but by giving humans free will he did seal our fate. I simply don't think that he would let this world he created come to ruin if he cared. I'm not saying he's a mean, vengeful, uncaring God, I'm sure he's a really nice guy ;), I just think he built it then left it, never gave it a second thought.
Scientist and idealist, doctors, lawyers, housewives, we're all human, fallible. We make mistakes, that's our nature. No, I don't believe every theory that they come up with, they're human, prone to error. The bible was written by fallible men. There may be some basis of truth to some of the stories in the bible. But all of it?Quote:
That's why there are scientists and idealists (philosophers) in this world - do we believe their theories because "they" exist... where did they come up with these ideas.
I'm a writer, when I write a story, even if it's based on truth, the facts often get lost. To tell an interesting story, catch the readers attention, you have to stretch the truth a little. No one wants to read about your day at the beach when you got a sunburn. Add a shark that rips off your limb and it because interesting. That's what I believe the bible is.
Trust me when I say that my decision to become a Deist was not made lightly. I was raised Lutheran, in a very loving home with wonderful parents that believed that God did love us. I went to a Catholic school which is where I started to question, mainly because of the way I was treated. You see, Lutheran girls weren't really accepted by Catholics. If I had a penny for every person, parents included, that told me I was going to hell because I wasn't Catholic, I'd be a very wealthy woman.
When I started working, I worked for a company that my dad's boss owned. His boss was a strict Pentecostal. He was very involved in his church. One day we were talking. He asked about my beliefs, why I didn't go to church. I said that I didn't find church necessary. He had to go to church, because he had to ask for forgiveness. You see, he claimed it was okay to cheat, lie, steal, rape, pillage, whatever you want, as long as you go to church on Sunday and ask for forgiveness, you're forgiven, it's all good, your spot in heaven is secured.
If there is a heaven, and I really hope there is, then I don't think going to church or reading the bible will get you there. I live my life the best I can. I'm kind, I help my fellow man, I don't cheat I don't steal, I try my best to be a decent human being, but not because I'm afraid that God will strike me down, because of course I don't think he's watching, but because that's who I want to be, it's the right way to be. I don't need a deity to be a decent human being and too many people that do worship God have shown me that bad is everywhere, religion doesn't have anything to do with decency.
Great, another book by Alty. I sure can ramble. ;)
Could you describe this world please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Use your imagination.Quote:
Originally Posted by elscarta
You already know why I don't think God intervenes, so what do you think this world would be like?
Children wouldn't die. Women wouldn't be raped. Wars wouldn't start. People wouldn't maim, kill, hurt, molest.
Would it be paradise? Probably not, but there would be a lot less crap in the world.
I will have to write tomorrow!
xoxaprilwine can't delete this spot??
As I have asked in a previous post, how much do you value "free will"? All of the above happen because of "free will". People choose to rape, kill, maim, hurt, molest and start wars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Say the government announced that they had developed a drug that would take away free will and make people only do good, how many people do you think would choose to take it? Would it be OK for the government to force people to take it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by elscarta
Right you are.. And I had that conversaion on another thread. Why scripture and God does offer the law to keep us straight. But the answer I got to doing it God's way was said to be lack of freedom. Even the thought of pray would be unacceptible if it is mandated in our minds to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillac59
May thoughts are why refuse to pray if it brings goodness? If prayer brings the intervention of blessing? Especially when you see the world around us in the solar system is made so perfectly.
It take a surrendering heart in knowing you can't do it yourself. You can goal your own actions, but you can't make the entire world follow you. (the opinion is, that pride makes someone think God's way is not the best way, instead they want freedom)
God did gives us liberty of Law, liberty to sin or not to sin.
And I COMPLETELY concur. Isn't it nice just to discuss things :).Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
If that's what you believe then at least you still believe there is a God. We both believe in God, just differently. Someone can challenge both of us and ask for proof that he even exists…so I can't say your wrong if it feels right for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
The Bible evolves over generations to be able to make the proper associations with today's world to adapt to new ideas and concepts BUT still keeping true meanings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
There is still some truth and still a purpose – a lesson to be learned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
So you talk about being raised “Lutheran, then condoning to Catholic”. I am raised a Catholic and then later (by way of private education) taught Lutheran ways…I even sung their songs…I crossed when they didn't. I never felt inferior and I can't recall as a Catholic cussing a Lutheran. Your experience is new to me and I am sorry for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Well most people do think that…but you should repent for your sins and mean it. When you make a promise to God (not to do something anymore because you know it is wrong) then you must keep your promise. Breaking a promise to God has consequences too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
I agree with that as well; we can be “spiritual”.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
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