I didn't know Excon was an atheist I thought he was agnostic (besides Jewish) or something.
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I didn't know Excon was an atheist I thought he was agnostic (besides Jewish) or something.
May I say something related to what Elliot posted?
I merely wish to point out that there are Christians, and there are others who use the name.
There certainly were times and places when those using the Name of Christ persecuted anyone who did not agree with them. But that behaviou is not consistent with the teachings of Jesus, the Christ.
In our own time, the Jews have no firmer allies than the Christian community.
I won't say we aren't praying that the Jews will recognize Jesus as their Messiah, because we are.
That is brought about because of Christian love. As the Apostle Paul said, we owe all men the debt of truth.
I thought so!!Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Love it!! :)
Hello again, gal:Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Did you know that being argumentative is a VERY Jewish trait? Just look at the Wolverine, for crying out loud. Anyway, that's why we make such good lawyers. That may even be why I'm so versed in the law. It's in my genes...
Yes, I know there's an affinity between Evangelicals and Jews. I know too, that a Christian who walks the walk, doesn't need to talk the talk. I know what's in your heart, gal.
excon
Hmmmmmm?Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
I don't dispute any of this. I am only trying to relay what OUR EXPERIENCE has been.Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
From the point of view the one being persecuted, does it matter whether the person burning your house, raping your wife and daughter, and stealing your belongings is really a Christian or just calls himself a Christian? From out point of view, we were persecuted for nearly two millennia in the name of Christianity and the name of Jesus. FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE a prayer that ends "in Jesus' name" could be off-putting and could make a Jew feel left out. That's all I'm saying.
Elliot
excon's right about that one, gal.Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
And all this time I thought I was Irish!:DQuote:
Originally Posted by ETWolverine
I do understand what you are saying Elliot.
I expect there is no answer to the problem, if it IS a problem.
In anyone's prayer, a Deity is being addressed. For the Christian, that Deity is the same one that Jews pray to.
It's just that we accept what Jesus said about His being the only way to the Father. So for us, the name of Jesus is either spoken or implied.
That brings up the question of how can anyone know (otherwise) just what deity may be addressed? Is it a Buddhist prayer? A Pagan prayer?
The potential for offense is always present. When it comes to public prayer, we just either go along with it or ignore it.
It's not like we were in a place of worship dedicated to the God we honor.
PS: What is the proper way that a devout Jew addresses YAH? (Just so I'll know)
"Hashem" is what we say when NOT in prayer. That is the common way of addressing or referring to G-d in Orthodox Judaism. It literally means "The Name", which refers to the fact that we are not supposed to name Him (take his name in vain) except in prayer or service to Him.Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
In prayer there are many different names used for Him, depending on what prayer is being said. Each of G-d's many names refers to an Aspect of his nature, and so different names are used when we are praying for him to invoke a particular aspect. For instance, if I were invoking his aspect of mercy, I would use the term "ado-nai" which is the term that refers to G-d's mercy. If I were asking for protection from enemies, I might use "elokai tzivakot" which means "Lord of Hosts" or "Master of Armies" or as I like to say "WarLord", which invokes the aspect of G-d that fights on our behalf.
But for your purposes, "Hashem" is the correct usage.
Elliot
I'm just slightly confused. Are you saying they were using a christian prayer when praying to their mother goddess?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Sounds like they might have been referring to Mary, Chuck, no doubt many are confused about her statusQuote:
Originally Posted by hheath541
Thanks for explaining it from your [ and Ex's ? ] point of view.Quote:
Originally Posted by ETWolverine
Personally, I don't like praying in public, but that's just me .
G&P
No prayer is diminished by leaving out the name of Jesus. In fact, in a public gathering like a NASCAR race, I'm surprised Jesus' name is even brought up. Surely, there are people other than Christians watching the race. It is, at least, bad form and, at worst, insulting to non-Christians.
excon and ETWolverine -
I'm sympathetic to both of you because I have spoken with many Jews about this same topic and have grown in my appreciation for the struggles of Jews across the world. I understand that sometimes Jews are harassed by "Christians" and are targets for other anti-Semitic aggression.
Elliot, I do want to make a couple of points that I think are worth noting.
First, I totally agree that throughout history, Jews have often been the targets of "Christians." I use the term "Christian" because as one myself, it angers me when I read history and see that "Christians" were doing the kinds of things to Jews that they did. The reason being that anti-Semitism is something that the New Testament of the bible I read says is at odds with genuine faith. Jesus of Nazareth was a Jew. Saul of Tarsus was a Jew. Peter and James and John were Jews. The teachings of the early Church were founded upon the Law and the Prophets and to purposely hate Jews was to go against Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. So, it puzzles me how people claiming to be Christians could purposely attack Jews. To me, I can only conclude one thing: that they were never Christians but were merely acting in the same spirit of Haman, in the book of Esther.
Corrie ten Boom was a Dutch Christian during the Holocaust. She risked her life to protect Jews from the Nazi SS. She fed kosher food to observant Jews and even honored the Jewish Sabbath with them. She hid Jews in a room that was built in her home from the Nazis. In 1944 the ten Booms were arrested by the Nazis and sent to Scheveningen prison in the Netherlands. Her father died 10 days later. Afterwards, the ten Booms were shuffled around and Corrie and her sister Betsie were sent to the Ravensbruck concentration camp in Germany, where Corrie's sister later died. If these people did not care for Jews, they would have never been sent to prison and Corrie's father and sister would not have died. But they died for their belief in the God of Israel and their love for Jews as God's chosen people. I would be willing to suffer a similar fate for a Jew because I believe that God's love is for Israel and I desire to be of the same mind with God, even if it means giving my life for it.
Corrie ten Boom was honored as Righteous Among the Nations by the State of Israel, so you know that Israel was appreciative of the sacrifices of people like her and her family. There are countless others who did the same who are also honored as Righteous Among the Nations.
It is understandable why you cringe at prayers invoking the name of Jesus because I know you equate the name Jesus with the persecution of Jews. But I say that it is easy to say I am a Christian. It is even easier to say I am a Christian and hate Jews when already have a disposition against them. In other words, if I already hate Jews, merely affiliating myself with a group or religion is really a formality... my hatred existed whether I was a Christian or not. Take the Palestinians for example. They believe in God (Allah) and hate your people to the point of blowing themselves up to kill Jews. So hatred is really irrespective of religion, I argue. There are non-religious people who hate Jews and religious people who hate Jews and what unites them is their hatred, not their religion, in my opinion.
True Christianity teaches to love my neighbor as myself... that includes Jews. Jesus was a Jew. I think his teaching was richly Jewish and supportive of Israel as a nation because he claimed to be the one who would bring the promises of Abraham to both the Jews and Gentiles, to accomplish what Saul said in Ephesians:
"For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility."
What I mean by this is that for centuries, Jews and Gentiles have been at odds with each other... hostile. Saul taught that Jesus came to bring an end to that hostility by bringing together Jews and Gentiles, fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah where it is written:
Thus says God, the Lord,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread out the earth and what comes from it,
Who gives breath to the people on it
And spirit to those who walk in it:
6 “I am the Lord; I have called you in righteousness;
I will take you by the hand and keep you;
I will give you as a covenant for the people,
A light for the nations,
7 to open the eyes that are blind,
To bring out the prisoners from the dungeon,
From the prison those who sit in darkness.
However you take this (who the LORD is talking about), he clearly intended to bring light (wisdom and understanding) to the nations (goyim), to open their eyes to the ways of the LORD so that they might know him.
My overall point is that it is important to make a distinction between who you real enemies are and who you think your enemies are. A true disciple of Jesus Christ does not raise his hand against a Jew but embraces him as a brother.
Jakester,
Thanks for the comments. They are appreciated.
I do not mean to say that we are particularly worried that in the USA there is going to be someone or some group that is going to deliberately persecute us. Frankly, with the exception of a few fruits and nuts on the fringes (the KKK on the FAR right and the Muslim Brotherhood on the FAR left) this country has been very good to Jews.
The mechanism that I am explaining takes place at a very subconscious level. It's not that someone from the Jewish community is specifically saying that NASCAR fans are Jew-haters or anything like that. (In my experience, NASCAR fans are also some of the greatest supporters of Israel and the Jewish People in the world.)
No, it's much more subtle... it's a subconscious cringe that takes place when we are in the presence of those who happen to be invoking the name of Jesus in prayer. We generally know that no offense is intended, nor do we intend any offense toward them. It's just a "feeling" that we get.
I'm not saying that the Christians among us need to make any changes. I wouldn't want you to. I am just recognizing a cultural reaction on the part of Jews (excon's reaction is not an uncommon one among Jews of all backgrounds) and I'm trying to explain why it occurs. I am neither asking for change from anyone else nor expecting it.
Thanks for your feedback, Jake. It's appreciated.
Elliot
I think that happens when anyone, from any religion, hears the god of another religion invoked. I'm not completely sure why. I was raised christian and I still get a knee-jerk attack of mild irritation, I guess is the best word for it, when I hear someone praying and they use jesus' name. I think it's just a reaction to something that is 'other' than you.Quote:
Originally Posted by ETWolverine
I'm sure christians have the same reaction when they hear someone praying to allah or buddha or zues. In fact, I have heard christians complain LOUDLY when they heard someone invoking anyone's name but jesus' in prayer, even if it was a private, personal prayer.
You may be right that it happens among other people from other religions as well, but I can only comment from my own experience. I have tried very hard to understand my own reactions and the cultural reactions of my people. I am not in a position to comment on the reactions of Christians. I can only speak for myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by hheath541
Elliot
I think it would take a trained and experienced sociologist several years of study to figure out. I think at least part of it is just a discomfort at hearing a god we don't believe in being worshiped. I just couldn't tell you WHY that is.Quote:
Originally Posted by ETWolverine
Hello h:Quote:
Originally Posted by hheath541
That's just not so. I hear people praying and invoking Jesus all the time. It's NOT offensive at all. Nope. Elliot and I are talking about PUBLIC events, like the NASCAR race, or even a baseball game.
I'm happy people pray to their god - just not at PUBLIC events.
excon
OK. I was going from my personal experience. I don't go to public events that have prayers, or even watch them on TV, so I've never experienced that. I just don't like sports *shrugs*Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
John 14:13& 14 "And whatever you ask in my name, that I will do, that the Father
may be glorified in the Son. 14, "If you ask anything in My name, I will do.
Jesus speeking. John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed
you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask in My name He may give you." Jesus speeking. Blessing,
Maggie 3
Hello M:
What the hell does that mean? Can you answer me in ENGLISH?? I don't like to get preached at.
excon
The only way we can be a child of God is knowing Jesus. The only way I can know Jesus
is reading Gods word the bible, and talking to Him in prayer. Jesus lived a life with-out sin and the only one that has. Jesus mirrored God exactly.
Jesus was not a cardboard cutout or an abstract list of theological attributes,
Jesus exhibited a full range of potent emotions and showed His love in both gentle and
tough ways. I am just stating facts, it is the truth about Jesus, why He came. I do not
want to offend you, it's just the way I see it as truth.
The only way a person can come to the Father {God} with out Jesus is to live a
completelly sinless life, in thought, word, and deed-- and no one but Jesus Himself
fits that profile. In other words we are all sinners but some of us are saved by the grace of God . In Jesus name we are saved and sanctified [forgive of sin].
Maggie 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie 3
I have a couple of problems here -
First, this is on the religious discussions board, not the Christianity board, so all religions are posting here and don't people don't need you to lecture to them. Go to the Christianity board where that would be accepted and perhaps welcome.
Second, what is with the spacing that you (always) use. Is this cut and paste? If so, what is the source?
Third, I've read your other posts and find it hard to believe that these are your words: "Jesus was not a cardboard cutout or an abstract list of theological attributes, Jesus exhibited a full range of potent emotions and showed His love in both gentle and tough ways."
Fourth, don't presume to assume that because you believe something it is the truth. This is only your opinion: "I am just stating facts, it is the truth about Jesus, why He came."
Judy kay tee, My source is from the bible. I believe the bible as truth, This ia what
I quote. I know I am not a good typist or speller but I do my best.I do
Not know how
To cut and past, but I do write or quote what is written in my bible.
Maggie 3
It is not up to you to direct the subject matter, Did you happen to notice the name of the thread. Obviously the content will contain a highly Christian point of view which was being solicited so if you don't want to hear a Christian perspective don't read the thread and above all don't about the contentQuote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
The question was, in fact, not posted by a Christian so there is no assumption that only Christian answers will be given.
I have no idea what "don't {blank space} about the content means" unless your Christian language had to be cleaned up by a moderator.
I'm not directing the subject matter - in fact, I don't know what that means. Are you saying I should attempt to direct the answers?
Last I heard everyone is entitled to contribute, no matter how stupid their answer - even you.
You have gone out of your way to be insulting" "Twinkie, go back to Twinking?" https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/curren...ml#post1956392 How old are you, anyway?
If I had been insulting you would know it and I am old enough to discern the thrust of what you have posted. As I said; a Christian subject will attract Christian answers no matter that it is posted in a "religious" context, after all some Christians are the most religious people I know, and if you don't want a Christian perspective don't read it, and above all don't complain, surely you can comprehend what I am saying,:eek: or are you too high minded to understand simple English:DQuote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
I'm too high minded and well educated to understand simple English. I also understand how to punctuate a post, by the way.
Your answer to Twinkie was insulting.
And I don't see that this is a Christian subject. I see it as a religious subject.
I'm not religious about punctuation:DQuote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
Wow Jake, if I could give you a greenie on this one I would. I'd give you 10. You do the body of Christ proud! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jakester
Ex,
Christians are told to pray in Jesus name, that is why they do it. And like Wondergirl stated... MOST nascar races are in the biblebelt... so it isn't surprising.
Personally If I were asked to pray at a public event, I would pray in Jesus name. I wouldn't be politcally correct for ANYONE. ( shocking huh?) But most public prayers that I have heard end with Amen. I wouldn't expect a non Christian to pray any other way and I'm not offended when they don't say Jesus name. HOWEVER! I AM offended when someone claims to represent Christ as a Pastor or whataever and they don't use it... (I once heard a well known Christian Pastor on Oprah just say AMEN and I ranted and raved for days... lol ) I am NOT ashamed of Jesus or my faith in him and I suppose I expect fellow Christians to be the same way.
But I'm off topic and talking about me again. Sorry
ANYWAY, I understand how you feel though. I was at my sisters wedding reception and the Pastor prayed a lovely prayer in Jesus name before we ate. Then he introduced some guy who was going to be singing and playing the guitar. This guy bowed his head and asked us to pray right after the Christian prayer. I didn't think anything of it but then he clearly stated at the end it was to some pagan god!! Anyway I was shocked and like you I felt duped! And angry. But you can't control what people are going to say even in a CHRISTIAN church! And in my heart, I wasn't praying to something I didn't believe in.
Now you probably aren't going to like my next statement( and I am sure you were crazy about the last few)... I believe God hears every prayer! However, I don't believe he is under any obligation to answer it if it is not in in Son's name. He does many times though. Those are my personal thoughts... and I am not sure I could back it up with one bible verse. So don't freak out on me.
And one last thought... How in the world can you sit and watch nascar anyway?. I mean REALLY? Cars going around in a circle 500 times?? Boring. THIS is where you are going wrong. Stop watching it... you will be less angry. It makes me mad every time my boys watch it... so I KNOW! :)
Hello again, Tess:
Thanks for that... I actually don't watch nascar... Oh, I think I do, but I always fall asleep.
Ex
Thanks, Tess, you are too kind.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Hello again,
Watching the race... They DID it again... I think they should change it from Jesus of Nazareth to Jesus of Nascar...
excon
PS> I know. They ain't going to change for me... But, I ain't going to change either...
So, how's your Sunday going?
Excon, here's my question, as a fellow Jew:
Why do you need that acknowledgment from the folks at NASCAR?
Elliot
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