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  • May 3, 2009, 04:59 AM
    sndbay
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N0help4u View Post
    We must have a different King James then.

    there are approximately 133 references to the heavens.

    Genesis 2:1 (KJV) "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them."

    Genesis 2:4 (KJV) "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens."


    Tj is right
    the first heaven is considered our atmosphere.
    the second is the galaxies
    etc.....

    How Many Heavens Are There

    as far as the age of the earth
    I want to answer this according to the gap theory but I really don't have the time right now to look up the original words and meaning

    Nohelp4u,

    (heaven)
    There are in the KJV Concordance
    occurs 583 times in 551 verses in the KJV
    Page 1 / 23 (Gen 1:1 - Gen 27:28)

    AND

    (heavens)
    KJV Concordance
    occurs 133 times in 127 verses in the KJV
    Page 1 / 6 (Gen 2:1 - Job 35:5)

    Both verses you posted Genesis 2:1 2:4 do reference to heavens in the KJV Concordance

    As for the ages: "Thus" in Genesis 2:1 is an example of new age beginning in generations of The Heavens and Earth mention in 2:4.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    Genesis 1:1 says "heavens", just as Exodus 20:11 says "heavens" - Ex 20 tells us that everything was made in 6 days.

    All scripture needs to be taken in context.

    As the quote from Tj3 shows we were speaking of Genesis 1:1. What does your KJV have in Genesis 1:1?

    Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. KJV
  • May 3, 2009, 06:36 AM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    Please reframe from this type of question. Neither you or I would suggestion this, and I would not even question anyone's integrity in this manner.

    That is the problem - the point that you were making was not clear, and U was trying to trigger you to provide a clarification because this was all that I could dioscern from what you said. I did not think that this was what you meant, but after reading it several times, that was what came across.
  • May 3, 2009, 07:01 AM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    Yes we have earthquakes, however, have those earthquarkes ever seal up the stars or cause the sun not to rise. (Job 9:7 Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars. )

    First, note these references must be after the 6 day creation because neither the sun nor the stars existed beforehand.

    We do have a reference to the sun stopping:

    Josh 10:13
    13 So the sun stood still,
    And the moon stopped,
    Till the people had revenge
    Upon their enemies.
    NKJV


    And to a description of exactly what you suggest:

    Matt 24:29-30
    29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
    NKJV


    Keep in mind that we do find some prophecy in the book of Job, so this may have been speaking about this future event, or Job may simply have been describing God's Almighty power. Nothing in these passages would even suggest a previous existence of man on earth.

    Quote:

    Yes again Genesis does tell of a flood. However, can we read somewhere in Noah's flood that the heavens perished? The world perished compared to the destroy man and beast in Naoh's flood. God destroyed the corrupt flesh verse 6:13.
    Let's look at it again:

    2 Peter 3:5
    5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.
    NKJV

    Note that this is referring to the world, and says nothing about the heavens perishing. It does say that the heavens were of old, and the description given in scripture, and what we know of scientific findings is that the climate on earth prior to the flood was dramatically different and this the indiaction is that the sky was much different, probably due to a permanent cloud layer, similar to what we now call global warming which keep a great deal of moisture in the atmosphere, and caused the warmth to go across the worl;d, including even the poles (which scientists have found to be once tropical).

    So once again, complete agreement with the flood timeframe, and nothing to even suggest a prior existence on earth.

    Quote:

    Question: the land desolate yet will I make a full end?

    Jeremiah 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
    Read the full context. This passages tells you specifically what the context is. First of all, God refers here to the land of "my people", and there whole land shall be destroyed. Who does God refer to consistently as "my people"? The land of Israel, so this is referring to a judgment to come upon Israel. This is confirmed if you read on a bit further (keeping in mind that chapter divisions were added later and are not inspired):

    Jer 5:1
    "Run to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem;
    See now and know;
    And seek in her open places
    If you can find a man,
    If there is anyone who executes judgment,
    Who seeks the truth,
    And I will pardon her.
    NKJV


    This goes on quite a ways further, and once again God says that He will not make a complete end of her:

    Jer 5:18-22
    18 "Nevertheless in those days," says the LORD, "I will not make a complete end of you. 19 And it will be when you say, 'Why does the LORD our God do all these things to us?' then you shall answer them, 'Just as you have forsaken Me and served foreign gods in your land, so you shall serve aliens in a land that is not yours.'

    20 "Declare this in the house of Jacob
    And proclaim it in Judah, saying,
    21'Hear this now, O foolish people,
    Without understanding,
    Who have eyes and see not,
    And who have ears and hear not:
    22 Do you not fear Me?' says the LORD.
    'Will you not tremble at My presence,
    Who have placed the sand as the bound of the sea,
    By a perpetual decree, that it cannot pass beyond it?
    And though its waves toss to and fro,
    Yet they cannot prevail;
    Though they roar, yet they cannot pass over it.
    NKJV

    Just read the context of this who portion of scripture and it is very clear that it has do with a prophecy of Jeremiah against Israel.
  • May 3, 2009, 07:05 AM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    What does your KJV have in Genesis 1:1?

    Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. KJV

    Sndbay,

    It does not matter, because, as I pointed out before, scripture refers to many things as heavens. The Hebrew word refers to anything which is above us.
  • May 3, 2009, 08:05 AM
    sndbay
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    Sndbay,

    It does not matter, because, as I pointed out before, scripture refers to many things as heavens. The Hebrew word refers to anything which is above us.

    Yes we both have made that point. God and all HIS creation of the heavens and earth, as the creator offers the unlimited vision of what HIS greatness holds.

    I did not want to appear uninterested in what Nohelp4u was saying in her post. I am interesting in everyone thoughts.
  • May 3, 2009, 08:27 AM
    sndbay

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    First, note these references must be after the 6 day creation because neither the sun nor the stars existed beforehand.

    Unless there was a first age of the heaven and earth before the 6 day creation. And as I have said we have signs that give speculation of a first earth age.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    We do have a reference to the sun stopping:

    Josh 10:13
    13 So the sun stood still,
    And the moon stopped,
    Till the people had revenge
    Upon their enemies.
    NKJV


    And to a description of exactly what you suggest:

    Matt 24:29-30
    29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
    NKJV


    Keep in mind that we do find some prophecy in the book of Job, so this may have been speaking about this future event, or Job may simply have been describing God's Almighty power. Nothing in these passages would even suggest a previous existence of man on earth.

    .

    Agree nothing in the verses of Matthew or Josh suggest a previous existence. That would be your speculation that Job 9:6-7 would compares to them not mine .
  • May 3, 2009, 08:56 AM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    Unless there was a first age of the heaven and earth before the 6 day creation. And as I have said we have signs that give speculation of a first earth age.

    We are not to go beyond what is written. To suggest that God created something before what is recorded in Genesis 1:1 is pure and absolute speculation at best. We cannot establish doctrine on what scripture does not say, or one can end up with all sorts of very strange doctrines by simply saying that the Bible doesn't say otherwise.

    I could tell you that you must have green hair and 4fours eyes because scripture doesn't say that you don't! I don't believe that for a moment, but if we go beyond what scripture says, then that point would have as much validity.

    Regardless, there are many reasons the gap theory falls apart, and I mentioned several. And let's not forget the fact that what God created was perfect and only became imperfect when man sinned. According to the gap theory, scripture is wrong when it says that occurred at the time of Adam's sin. So, the gap theory not only is based upon speculation of what scripture does not say, but it also goes contrary to scripture.
  • May 3, 2009, 09:15 AM
    sndbay
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post

    Read the full context. This passages tells you specifically what the context is. First of all, God refers here to the land of "my people", and there whole land shall be destroyed. Who does God refer to consistently as "my people"? the land of Israel, so this is referring to a judgment to come upon Israel. This is confirmed if you read on a bit further (keeping in mind that chapter divisions were added later and are not inspired):

    Jer 5:1
    "Run to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem;
    See now and know;
    And seek in her open places
    If you can find a man,
    If there is anyone who executes judgment,
    Who seeks the truth,
    And I will pardon her.
    NKJV


    This goes on quite a ways further, and once again God says that He will not make a complete end of her:

    Jer 5:18-22
    18 "Nevertheless in those days," says the LORD, "I will not make a complete end of you. 19 And it will be when you say, 'Why does the LORD our God do all these things to us?' then you shall answer them, 'Just as you have forsaken Me and served foreign gods in your land, so you shall serve aliens in a land that is not yours.'

    20 "Declare this in the house of Jacob
    And proclaim it in Judah, saying,
    21'Hear this now, O foolish people,
    Without understanding,
    Who have eyes and see not,
    And who have ears and hear not:
    22 Do you not fear Me?' says the LORD.
    'Will you not tremble at My presence,
    Who have placed the sand as the bound of the sea,
    By a perpetual decree, that it cannot pass beyond it?
    And though its waves toss to and fro,
    Yet they cannot prevail;
    Though they roar, yet they cannot pass over it.
    NKJV

    Just read the context of this who portion of scripture and it is very clear that it has do with a prophecy of Jeremiah against Israel.

    Let's go back to what I had referenced. Jeremiah 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. (Where does God ever suggest a full end other then in this paining heart of hurt that God is speaking concerning the lack of knowledge and obedience?)

    Start with where God is clearly saying HIS people have no knowledge and their are foolish, and do no know HIM. God is pained in the heart, and could not hold HIS peace. Jeremiah 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

    God saw the earth and it was without form, and no light in heaven
    Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

    God saw the mountains and they trembled, this is at the same time that God saw the earth become void, and heaven without light in the previous verse.
    Jeremiah 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

    God continues to clearly tell us of a time that HIS heart was in pain, and the earth trembled, and lo there was no man and all birds fled. Can we see what is taking place as the earth trembled to move mountains, as the earth became void and without form. The heaven had no light.
    Jeremiah 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

    Jeremiah 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, [and] by his fierce anger.

    Jeremiah 4:47
    For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

    God made a full end, and the earth mourn, and the heaven above was black? no but it was desolute. Meaning of desolute? waste

    Jeremiah 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.



    Speculation YES or NO?
  • May 3, 2009, 09:26 AM
    sndbay
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    We are not to go beyond what is written. To suggest that God created something before what is recorded in Genesis 1:1 is pure and absolute speculation at best..

    Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    Genesis 1:2 And the earth became without form, and void; and darkness became upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    ********
    New 6 day creation begins: New Age

    Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

    Speculation? YES we agree on that...
  • May 3, 2009, 12:11 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    Genesis 1:2 And the earth became without form, and void; and darkness became upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    ********
    New 6 day creation begins: New Age

    Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

    Speculation? YES we agree on that...

    I am glad that we agree on speculation.

    We don't agree on the start of the 6 days.
  • May 3, 2009, 12:14 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    Let's go back to what I had referenced. Jeremiah 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. (Where does God ever suggest a full end other then in this paining heart of hurt that God is speaking concerning the lack of knowledge and obedience?)

    Large portion cut for sake of brevity

    Quote:

    Speculation YES or NO?
    Again, the portion of scripture has nothing to do with the topic. The portion of scripture specifically identifies it as a judgment against Jerusalem.
  • May 3, 2009, 01:20 PM
    sndbay
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post

    Again, the portion of scripture has nothing to do with the topic. The portion of scripture specifically identifies it as a judgment against Jerusalem.


    Jeremiah 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

    So you see the earth void as being a predestination of a full end to Jerusalem, the earth, and no man left, and the heaven will be black.

    I don't agree !
  • May 3, 2009, 01:30 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    Jeremiah 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

    So you see the earth void as being a predestination of a full end to Jerusalem, the earth, and no man left, and the heaven will be black.

    I don't agree !

    Where did He say that He would make a "full end" of it?

    Jer 4:27
    27 For thus says the LORD:

    "The whole land shall be desolate;
    Yet I will not make a full end.
    NKJV


    Jer 5:10
    10 "Go up on her walls and destroy,
    But do not make a complete end.
    NKJV

    And where does this say that this is a prophecy of the earth?
  • May 3, 2009, 02:06 PM
    galveston

    Speculation, true. But we still have that problem of the dinosauers, along with man, being present on earth at the same time as evidenced by tracks found at Glen Rose, Texas.

    Look at this:

    "created" in Gen 1:1 is defined as follows.

    1254 bara' (baw-raw');

    a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): -choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

    "made" as in Ex 20:11 is defined as:

    6213 `asah (aw-saw');

    a primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application (as follows):

    KJV-- accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth, bruise, be busy, X certainly, have the charge of, commit, deal (with), deck, + displease, do, (ready) dress (-ed), (put in) execute (-ion), exercise, fashion, + feast, [fighting-] man, + finish, fit, fly, follow, fulfill, furnish, gather, get, go about, govern, grant, great, + hinder, hold ([a feast]), X indeed, + be industrious, + journey, keep, labour, maintain, make, be meet, observe, be occupied, offer, + officer, pare, bring (come) to pass, perform, pracise, prepare, procure, provide, put, requite, X sacrifice, serve, set, shew, X sin, spend, X surely, take, X thoroughly, trim, X very, + vex, be [warr-] ior, work (-man), yield, use.

    They are two distinctly different words. Shouldn't we at least consider that something might be different in the two works of God?
  • May 3, 2009, 02:38 PM
    sndbay
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    Where did He say that He would make a "full end" of it?

    Jer 4:27
    27 For thus says the LORD:

    "The whole land shall be desolate;
    Yet I will not make a full end.
    NKJV


    Jer 5:10
    10 "Go up on her walls and destroy,
    But do not make a complete end.
    NKJV

    And where does this say that this is a prophecy of the earth?

    Okay not a full end, which permits the new age. AND it is not speaking of Jerusalem's fall either.. Can we agree?

    Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

    Question: the land desolate yet will I make a full end?

    Jeremiah 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

  • May 3, 2009, 03:11 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    Okay not a full end, which permits the new age. AND it is not speaking of Jerusalem's fall either.. Can we agree?

    Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

    We could discuss exactly what this is referring to, but that is not the topic of this thread. What is clear is that it is not referring to any gap in Genesis, but is a prophecy of a judgment to come upon Jerusalem.

    I really do not want to get sidettracked onto something which is not going to address the topic.
  • May 3, 2009, 03:14 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by galveston View Post
    Speculation, true. But we still have that problem of the dinosauers, along with man, being present on earth at the same time as evidenced by tracks found at Glen Rose, Texas.

    I see no problem with that - it fits nicely into the YEC understanding of creation.

    Quote:

    Look at this:

    "created" in Gen 1:1 is defined as follows.

    1254 bara' (baw-raw');

    a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): -choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

    "made" as in Ex 20:11 is defined as:

    6213 `asah (aw-saw');

    a primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application (as follows):

    KJV-- accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth, bruise, be busy, X certainly, have the charge of, commit, deal (with), deck, + displease, do, (ready) dress (-ed), (put in) execute (-ion), exercise, fashion, + feast, [fighting-] man, + finish, fit, fly, follow, fulfill, furnish, gather, get, go about, govern, grant, great, + hinder, hold ([a feast]), X indeed, + be industrious, + journey, keep, labour, maintain, make, be meet, observe, be occupied, offer, + officer, pare, bring (come) to pass, perform, pracise, prepare, procure, provide, put, requite, X sacrifice, serve, set, shew, X sin, spend, X surely, take, X thoroughly, trim, X very, + vex, be [warr-] ior, work (-man), yield, use.

    They are two distinctly different words. Shouldn't we at least consider that something might be different in the two works of God?
    "Make" or "create"? I see no reason to think that these are two entirely different things. Something can be both made and created at the same time.
  • May 3, 2009, 03:52 PM
    N0help4u
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    Nohelp4u,

    (heaven)
    There are in the KJV Concordance
    occurs 583 times in 551 verses in the KJV
    Page 1 / 23 (Gen 1:1 - Gen 27:28)

    AND

    (heavens)
    KJV Concordance
    occurs 133 times in 127 verses in the KJV
    Page 1 / 6 (Gen 2:1 - Job 35:5)

    Both verses you posted Genesis 2:1 2:4 do reference to heavens in the KJV Concordance

    As for the ages: "Thus" in Genesis 2:1 is an example of new age beginning in generations of The Heavens and Earth mention in 2:4.



    As the quote from Tj3 shows we were speaking of Genesis 1:1. What does your KJV have in Genesis 1:1?


    Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. KJV

    So what are you meaning by an example of new age beginning in generations if chapters 1 and 2 of Genesis are referring to one one week creation of ALL things?

    Yes it says heaven in 1:1
  • May 3, 2009, 04:20 PM
    sndbay
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N0help4u View Post
    So what are you meaning by an example of new age beginning in generations if chapters 1 and 2 of Genesis are referring to one one week creation of ALL things?

    Yes it says heaven in 1:1

    Post #49

    There was an age of dinosours and beasts with no communication skills that were created, and this would be the speculation of the earth that became void and unknown to man.(Perished)

    (Genesis 1:3) begins the new creation. The heaven and earth age we know today. The six day creation that God offered man dominion over all the earth. (Genesi 1:26)
  • May 3, 2009, 04:56 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    Post #49

    There was an age of dinosours and beasts with no communication skills that were created, and this would be the speculation of the earth that became void and unknown to man.(Perished)

    Except, as another person noted, we have evidence that dinosaurs and men existed together.

    Quote:

    (Genesis 1:3) begins the new creation. The heaven and earth age we know today. The six day creation that God offered man dominion over all the earth. (Genesi 1:26)
    Except for the issues that I have raised a number of times which show that there can be no gap because the 6 days started in verse 1:1 and that for a gap to have existed would be a denial of the gospel.
  • May 4, 2009, 03:32 AM
    sndbay
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    Except, as another person noted, we have evidence that dinosaurs and men existed together.

    Yes, but it was a ape like man. The ape like men were unable to communication in speech.

    God made man in the 6 day creation able to communicate and hear HIS word. (speculation)
  • May 4, 2009, 05:16 AM
    N0help4u
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    Post #49

    There was an age of dinosours and beasts with no communication skills that were created, and this would be the speculation of the earth that became void and unknown to man.(Perished)

    (Genesis 1:3) begins the new creation. The heaven and earth age we know today. The six day creation that God offered man dominion over all the earth. (Genesi 1:26)

    Okay so you do believe in the gap theory?
    I haven't had time to read through all this. I was thinking you were one that believed that not even the angels existed before the six day creation.
  • May 4, 2009, 06:58 AM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    Yes, but it was a ape like man. The ape like men were unable to communication in speech.

    God made man in the 6 day creation able to communicate and hear HIS word. (speculation)

    What is the basis for this claim?
  • May 4, 2009, 07:17 AM
    N0help4u

    Good question cause the only ape man unable to communicate with words I know of would be evolution teaching.
    I do not believe in evolution.
  • May 4, 2009, 08:20 AM
    sndbay
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N0help4u View Post
    Good question cause the only ape man unable to communicate with words I know of would be evolution teaching.
    I do not believe in evolution.

    Neither do I believe in evolution. Man today was created in the image of God during the 6 day creation. God was pleased with all He created. Man was the righteousness of God's image, and had dominion over the earth until Adam and Eve took from the tree of knowledge (evil knowledge).

    What some believe is that Eve is the mother of all human life, which is false. Eve was the mother of all living, because through the seed line of Seth which would come the tribes of Israel. Christ Jesus is sent by the Father through that seed line in Mary, and the "Key of David", giving HIM the throne on earth. Allowing us the Tree of Life..(from which comes the idea mother of all living)

    The speculation that an ape like, which lived during the age of dinosaurs, were as beasts without the ability to speech, similar to apes today. There was no human man before the 6 day creation.
  • May 4, 2009, 08:44 AM
    N0help4u

    Your distinctions are confusing me.
    So either they were apes or they were man.
    What do they have to do with humans?

    Either Eve bore Seth or she didn't. So what do you mean by that?
    What do you mean by mother of all living?
    What are you saying?
  • May 4, 2009, 11:14 AM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    Neither do I believe in evolution. Man today was created in the image of God during the 6 day creation. God was pleased with all He created. Man was the righteousness of God's image, and had dominion over the earth until Adam and Eve took from the tree of knowledge (evil knowledge).

    What some believe is that Eve is the mother of all human life, which is false. Eve was the mother of all living, because through the seed line of Seth which would come the tribes of Israel. Christ Jesus is sent by the Father through that seed line in Mary, and the "Key of David", giving HIM the throne on earth. Allowing us the Tree of Life..(from which comes the idea mother of all living)

    The speculation that an ape like, which lived during the age of dinosaurs, were as beasts without the ability to speech, similar to apes today. There was no human man before the 6 day creation.

    Again, what is your source for this claim?
  • May 4, 2009, 11:53 AM
    sndbay
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N0help4u View Post
    Either Eve bore Seth or she didn't. so what do you mean by that?
    What do you mean by mother of all living?
    What are you saying?

    Genesis 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    Eve was the mother of all living because, through the seed line of Seth

    Eve bore Seth

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N0help4u View Post
    Your distinctions are confusing me.
    So either they were apes or they were man.
    What do they have to do with humans?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    The speculation that an ape like, which lived during the age of dinosaurs, were as beasts without the ability to speech, similar to apes today.

    Science speculated that an ape like man existed along with dinosaurs.

    My speculation is that dinosaurs did live, and the ape like man was not a man, but similar as a beast type ape that lived at that same time frame. And as apes do not have the ability to communicate by speech neither could these beasts. Do you really think this speculation is so far off any path of teaching that it could not balance the questions of what science has taught?

    I hope that answered your question. Confusion comes by satan and man wanting to believe the delusion they have been given by God in their own choice.
  • May 4, 2009, 12:11 PM
    N0help4u

    This is the way I understand it.

    Apparently there is good evidence to indicate that Jeremiah 4 was stripped from the book of Genesis and placed in Jeremiah. This is how the book of Genesis really reads. The words in Jeremiah are in blue. See how smoothly it fits in. It really supports the gap theory. Maybe that is why they removed it in the first place. Also the word "was" (hayah) is a mistranslation. It should be "Became."

    1961 hayah (haw-yaw);
    a primitive root [compare 1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):
    KJV-- beacon, X altogether, be (-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (oneself-), require, X use.

    "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.The earth was (became) without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; and the heavens, they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled, and all the hills moved back and forth. I beheld, and indeed there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens had fled. I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness, and all its cities were broken down at the presence of the LORD, by His fierce anger. Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day."

    "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Pet 3:5-7

    In 2 Pet.3:6-7 we have a definite statement that there was a social world before Adam, which is called, "the world that then was." The Greek word for world is 'kosmos,' meaning social system.

    This social order had to be before this one we now know, or it could not be called "the social order that then was." That it was one which existed before our social order since Adam, is clear from the next statement about "the heavens and the earth, WHICH ARE NOW." The two statements, "the world THAT THEN WAS" and "the
    heavens and the earth, WHICH ARE NOW" prove there were two separate social systems on Earth. One was BEFORE the one WHICH IS NOW, and the other, AFTER the one THAT THEN WAS.

    If it can be definitely proved that "THE WORLD THAT THEN WAS" refers to a social order on Earth before the present heavens and the Earth WHICH ARE NOW, then it would be forever settled that there were inhabitants before Adam.

    1. THAT IS WHAT 2 PET.3:6-7 SAYS. It could not be expressed more clearly in human language than it is here, "By the word of God the heavens WERE OF OLD, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water. Whereby the world [social order] THAT THEN WAS [of old, and BEFORE the heavens and the Earth WHICH ARE NOW], being overflowed with water perished: But the heavens and the earth, WHICH ARE NOW [AFTER the world THAT THEN WAS], by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."
    The Gap Theory

    Jesus said he saw Satan cast out of heaven
    If satan was Lucifer the angel and then he was tempting Eve where is the timeline with all this in relation to Gen. 1 and 2?
  • May 4, 2009, 05:00 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    Genesis 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

    Eve bore Seth

    Science speculated that an ape like man existed along with dinosaurs.

    If you mean evolutionists, they deny that dinosaurs existed at the same time as any type of man.
  • May 4, 2009, 05:06 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N0help4u View Post
    This is the way I understand it.

    Apparently there is good evidence to indicate that Jeremiah 4 was stripped from the book of Genesis and placed in Jeremiah. This is how the book of Genesis really reads. The words in Jeremiah are in blue. See how smoothly it fits in. It really supports the gap theory. Maybe that is why they removed it in the first place. Also the word "was" (hayah) is a mistranslation. It should be "Became."

    Where is the evidence? I have never heard this claim by any credible scholar who has researched the history of the Bible.

    I went to that page to find out who these "scholars" were who found this evidence and what the evidence was. The source is "stargods.org". They give no names, but they do give a statement of faith which reads like this:

    -----------------------------
    1. The creator of this world (the Demiurge) is demented.
    2. The world is not as it appears, in order to hide the evil in it, a delusive veil obscuring it and the deranged deity.
    3. There is another, better realm of God, and all our efforts are to be directed toward
    1. returning there
    2. bringing it here
    4. Our actual lives stretch thousands of years back, and we can be made to remember our origin in the stars.
    5. Each of us has a divine counterpart unfallen who can reach a hand down to us to awaken us. This other personality is the authentic waking self; the one we have now is asleep and minor. We are in fact asleep, and in the hands of a dangerous magician disguised as a good god, the deranged creator deity. The bleakness, the evil and pain in this world, the fact that it is a deterministic prison controlled by the demented creator causes us willingly to split with the reality principle early in life, and so to speak willingly fall asleep in delusion.
    6. You can pass from the delusional prison world into the peaceful kingdom if the True Good God places you under His grace and allows you to see reality through His eyes.
    7. Christ gave, rather than received, revelation; he taught his followers how to enter the kingdom while still alive, where other mystery religions only bring about amnesis: knowledge of it at the "other time" in "the other realm," not here. He causes it to come here, and is the living agency to the Sole Good God (i.e. the Logos).
    8. Probably the real, secret Christian church still exists, long underground, with the living Corpus Christi as its head or ruler, the members absorbed into it. Through participation in it they probably have vast, seemingly magical powers.
    9. The division into "two times" (good and evil) and "two realms" (good and evil) will abruptly end with victory for the good time here, as the presently invisible kingdom separates and becomes visible. We cannot know the date.
    10. During this time we are on the sifting bridge being judged according to which power we give allegiance to, the deranged creator demiurge of this world or the One Good God and his kingdom, whom we know through Christ.
    (Source: Statement of Belief)
    -----------------------------

    I would be careful of using this as a resource.
  • May 5, 2009, 03:33 AM
    sndbay
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    If you mean evolutionists, they deny that dinosaurs existed at the same time as any type of man.

    Professor of Biomaterials and of Basic Science and Craniofacial Biology:

    Man's earliest direct ancestors looked more apelike than previousl...( Modern mans earliest known close ance...)

    off thread
  • May 5, 2009, 04:24 AM
    sndbay
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    I went to that page to find out who these "scholars" were who found this evidence and what the evidence was. The source is "stargods.org".

    (Source: Statement of Belief)
    .

    Tj3,

    Thanks for the "knowledge" you posted, being a source to Gnosticism. I had never heard of the religion of knowledge before.

    However I did look further in to the idea of this knowledge: Revolution! Free your mind!

    1. I refuse to live in fear by living in a state of love.

    2. I will not be controlled by fear produced by religion and New World Order (NWO) groups.

    3. I will learn and practice love which casts out fear.

    4. I realize that the New World Order is gaining on us fast, but I will refuse to acknowledge it and realized they are very desperate and are becoming confused as the people of earth are spiritually waking up. As we grow in love, they are losing their control over us. The NWO was set to take over in the year 2000, but the people were far more aware of what they were up to, and the NWO plan for the ages got placed on hold.

    5. As I learn love, I will abhor violence, because love is a higher frequency that is very powerful, and is proven to change reality. Soon the world will change as we draw closer to the year 2012.

    6. I will not be controlled by a fear of what people think of me. I will make it clear to all people what I believe and refuse to live in fear of what they may think. I will believe in what I believe, and will never be intimidated by threats of hell, and the Lake of fire, for not conforming to religious mind control. I will not pretend to be something that I am not in order to please people. I will not go along just to get along.

    7. We are free thinking individuals that have the right to believe in whatever we decide is truth.

    8. Truth comes from within, and not from outside. In other words, so called truth outside of us can be manipulated, altered, and filled with lies.

    9. Love is the only truth.


    10. I refuse to debate doctrines of men because love is the only doctrine. Anything or anyone that teaches or preaches anything else other than love is deception from the ultimate truth. Any religion or God that promotes love is a true faith. Any religion or God that promotes fear, is false religion.

    11. I refuse to label and condemn people because we are all one. I will never confuse ignorance with evil.

    12. I will never condone any nation or world leader that endorses war. I must oppose war by being very vocal against it. I will not condone any church, pastor, religion, world leader, holy scripture, or God that condones war or violence.


    We will be who we will be. Change the world with our minds and not violence.

    EMPOWERMENT not GOVERNMENT
    http://stargods.org/Revolution.html
    ***********************************
    Discussion off thread
  • May 5, 2009, 04:43 AM
    sndbay
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N0help4u View Post
    This is the way I understand it.

    The Gap Theory

    Everything in which you posted by scripture reference, is the same evidence of scripture that has been posted previously. AND I look for the evidence in scripture as my source.

    In what is written there is speculation needed to acknowledge that Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 was teaching of an earth and heaven that became void. And speculation in the understand that Genesis 1:3 goes forward from that perished, and unknown time frame, to the creation of what life is today. I just had never heard it called the Gap Theory. The specualtion is there because we do have to reference further into scripture for the obvious answers. I feel the answers are there...

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N0help4u View Post
    Jesus said he saw Satan cast out of heaven
    If satan was Lucifer the angel and then he was tempting Eve where is the timeline with all this in relation to Gen. 1 and 2?

    IN understanding what you mean by this question, could you reference scripture?
  • May 5, 2009, 06:43 AM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    Professor of Biomaterials and of Basic Science and Craniofacial Biology:

    Man's earliest direct ancestors looked more apelike than previousl...( Modern mans earliest known close ance...)

    off thread

    That was my point - evolutionists deny that man co-existed with dinosaurs. Evolutionists says that dinosaurs died out before this:

    Study: Dinosaurs Died Within Hours After Asteroid Hit Earth 65 Million Years Ago | News Center | University of Colorado at Boulder
  • May 5, 2009, 07:11 AM
    sndbay
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    That was my point - evolutionists deny that man co-existed with dinosaurs. Evolutionists says that dinosaurs died out before this:

    Study: Dinosaurs Died Within Hours After Asteroid Hit Earth 65 Million Years Ago | News Center | University of Colorado at Boulder

    NOTED REFERENCE: shows a 1.9 million-year-old skull belonging to Homo rudolfensis, the earliest member of the human genus, with a surprisingly small brain and distinctly protruding jaw, features commonly associated with more apelike members of the hominid family living as much as three million years ago.


    Tell me something Tom, Do you think all of this happened before 6 day creation? Did either one take place before or after? There is definite and sufficient proof that both did exist.

    I am not claiming to be the smartest brain at science, or biology, but these things are shown as being evident by men that have done a great deal of study. Tell me what your point is?

    Reference:
    http://www.genome.gov/10001772

    http://www.genome.gov/10000779
  • May 5, 2009, 11:19 AM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    NOTED REFERENCE: shows a 1.9 million-year-old skull belonging to Homo rudolfensis, the earliest member of the human genus, with a surprisingly small brain and distinctly protruding jaw, features commonly associated with more apelike members of the hominid family living as much as three million years ago.


    Tell me something Tom, Do you think all of this happened before 6 day creation? Did either one take place before or after? There is definite and sufficient proof that both did exist.

    I do believe that all of creation occurred in the 6 day period, yes.

    Do I necessarily agree with evolutionists as to the process that they believe occurred? No, but neither do many other highly qualified and respected scientists. Keep in mind that these claims regarding what occurred have numerous assumptions built into them. Even the existence of some of these being has been extrapolated from relatively little evidence. Probably one of the best known examples was a supposed "early man" which subsequently turned out to have been exptrapolated from a piece of a jawbone of an animal.

    Quote:

    I am not claiming to be the smartest brain at science, or biology, but these things are shown as being evident by men that have done a great deal of study. Tell me what your point is?
    None of this is proven. Men of equal study have arrived at varying conclusuions. Scientists even today are still m odifying their theories. But the one thing that we do know for certain is what God told us in His word.


    [/QUOTE]

    I am not sure what your point is with the links to the Human Genome Project. This is simply a project to map the genetic code of human DNA.
  • May 5, 2009, 11:52 AM
    sndbay
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post

    I am not sure what your point is with the links to the Human Genome Project. This is simply a project to map the genetic code of human DNA.

    It was just a point of reference for Francis S Collins who wrote the book I spoke of "The Language of God" base on a scientist presenting evidence of belief.
  • May 5, 2009, 01:56 PM
    N0help4u
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    NOTED REFERENCE:

    Tell me something Tom, Do you think all of this happened before 6 day creation? Did either one take place before or after? There is definite and sufficient proof that both did exist.


    Reference:
    genome.gov | All About The Human Genome Project (HGP)

    genome.gov | Former Director Francis S. Collins

    Basically what I was getting at about Satans fall. I believe that and the dinosaurs happened before the six day creation.
    Beginning
    Beginning of what?
    Creation
    Creation of what?

    Like if you take play dough it is an object
    Then you create it into something
    Then later you can take it and create something else with it
    Then you have the beginning of that 'creation'
  • May 6, 2009, 06:58 AM
    sndbay

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N0help4u View Post
    Basically what I was getting at about Satans fall. I believe that and the dinosaurs happened before the six day creation.
    Beginning
    beginning of what?
    Creation
    Creation of what?

    Like if you take play dough it is an object
    then you create it into something
    then later you can take it and create something else with it
    then you have the beginning of that 'creation'

    Yes this is the speculation in which I believe is possible as well. (noted that it is a speculation resourced by what scripture gives us)

    An earth age that existed before this earth age, that went on for years before the creation of man in God's image known as ( 6 day creation). And yes speculation includes that satan was at that time frame, the Lucifer who is referenced in (Isa:14:16) as the man who will come, and does today still attempt to imprison men with the worm of material lusts, and not spiritual heart of love. Lucifer's (fall the division of assigned bondage) from heaven is referenced in (Isa 14:12) That fall caused the earth to tremble, and did shake kingdoms and made the world a wilderness. The same Lucifer who of pride within his heart was recognized by God, to exalt himself above God the MOSY HIGH.

    *********
    Speculation includes reference of scientic resource, and studies being done that show evidence to the age of this world, and the covered age of what once was.

    The wonders of God's Creation. One of those wonders is a dinosaur recently discovered frozen in Antarctica, thought to be quite ancient. This dinosaur is thought to be 190 million years old.

    Dinosaur Found Frozen in Antarctica

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