No, it does not... IF we presume that "later traditions" conflict with what was written there.
Do you believe there is a conflict?
Galveston, what do you believe about "Papal Infallibility? What do you believe that this term means?
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No, it does not... IF we presume that "later traditions" conflict with what was written there.
Do you believe there is a conflict?
Galveston, what do you believe about "Papal Infallibility? What do you believe that this term means?
What does that have to do with the Bible, with the canon that was established? I don't think you know what papal infallibility means (and I'm a Protestant).Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Galveston, don't pretend that you know what I believe about "Papal infallibility".
I am sure you have no clue.
I invite you again to confirm:
a. what you believe the term means, and
b. tell everyone here what you believe Catholics are taught about it.
Because you don't understand Scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by lenox263
None of the Traditions taught by the Catholic Church are contrary to the Bible.Quote:
1. OF ALL THE HUMAN TRADITIONS taught and practiced by the Roman Catholic Church, which are contrary to the Bible,
We've never prayed to the dead. All the Saints are alive in Christ.Quote:
the most ancient are the prayers for the dead
The sign of the Cross is contrary to Scripture? In what way?Quote:
and the sign of the Cross. Both began 300 years after Christ... 310AD.
1 Corinthians 1 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness:
Actually much earlier than that. The practice was inherited from the Jews but it was really a practice of necessity. They had no electiricity back then. Only wax candles with which to create light.Quote:
2. Wax Candles introduced in church about 320AD.
However, the candles in Catholic Church serve a double function. They also represent the lamps which St. John saw in heaven.
Apocalypse 4
5 And from the throne proceeded lightnings, and voices, and thunders; and there were seven lamps burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God.
Angels were always venerated by the Jews:Quote:
3. Veneration of angles
Josue 5
14 And he answered: No: but I am prince of the host of the Lord, and now I am come. 15 Josue fell on his face to the ground. And worshipping, add: What saith my lord to his servant?
Those who leave this world in unity with Christ do not die but live.Quote:
and dead saints about 375
Luke 20 37 Now that the dead rise again, Moses also shewed, at the bush, when he called the Lord, The God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob;
38 For he is not the God of the dead, but of the living: for all live to him.
This is from Scripture:Quote:
4. The Mass, as a daily celebration, adopted 394AD.
Acts Of Apostles 2 46 And continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they took their meat with gladness and simplicity of heart;
We don't worship Mary. Never have, never will.Quote:
5. The worship of Mary,
Again, from Scripture:Quote:
the mother of Jesus, and the use of the term, 'Mother of God', as applied to her, originated in the Council of Ephesus in... 431AD.
Luke 1 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Obviously, the term "mother of my Lord" means mother of God. Otherwise St. Elizabeth would not need the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to say that. Nor would St. John have leaped in the womb if the child in Mary's womb were not Divine.
Again, inherited from the Jews.Quote:
6. Priests began to dress differently from the laity in 500AD.
The doctrine was defined then. But it was always practiced. Refer to the Old Testament book of Maccabees:Quote:
7. The doctrine of Purgatory was first established by Gregory the Great about the year 593AD.
2 Machabees 12 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
That is precisely why Latin was chosen. At the time that Latin was adopted as the official language, it was the most prevalent language in the world. Therefore it was the most well known of all tongues.Quote:
8. The Latin language, as the language of prayer and worship in churches, was also imposed by Pope Gregory I. 600 years after Christ... 600AD. The Word of god forbids praying and teaching in an unknown tongue. (1Cor.14:9).
And your interpretation of 1 Cor 14:9 leaves a great deal to be desired. It is not a prohibition, but an observation. If one speaks and teaches in a tongue which no one understands, he won't help anyone but himself. Therefore St. Paul does not forbid it. But he explains that it would be more helpful to the Church if someone could interpret the teaching of the word spoken in a Spiritual tongue.
In essence, the Angel offered a prayer of praise to Mary when he said:Quote:
9. The Bible teaches that we pray to God alone. In the primitive church never were prayers directed to Mary, or to dead saints. This practice began in the Roman Church about 600AD. (Matt. 11:28; Luke 1:46; Acts 10:25-26; 14:14-18)
Luke 1 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
A prayer which we imitate and continue. Otherwise known as the Hail Mary.
In addition, we see in Scripture that one saint prayed to another:
Luke 16 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.
Oh and the term "dead saint" is self contradictory. One is either a saint and alive in Christ. Or one is not a saint and is dead in his sins.
You've believed a bunch of lies. The truth is that Jesus established the Papacy when He installed Simon as His representative. See Matt 16:18.Quote:
10. The Papacy is of pagan origin... Clement, 3rd bishop of Rome, remarks that there is no real lst century evidence that Peter ever was in Rome."
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
But let us proceed to prove that Peter represents God.
Is Moses God? Of course not. But what did God say?
Exodus 7 1 And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharao: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Why did God call Moses God? Because He appointed Moses as His representative before Pharoa and the people:
Exodus 19 9 The Lord said to him: Lo, now will I come to thee in the darkness of a cloud, that the people may hear me speaking to thee, and may believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people to the Lord.
And what did God do in the New Testament? God also selected a man to represent Him. Simon Bar-Jonah.
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Who is the Rock?
1 Corinthians 10 4 And all drank the same spiritual drink; (and they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.
Christ is the Rock!
And the Rock turned to Simon and said, "YOU ARE ROCK and on this Rock I will build my Church"
So God gave Simon the name that represents God.
2 Kings 22 2 And he said: The Lord is my rock, and my strength, and my saviour.
Why? Because Simon now represents God before men.
Therefore Jesus also gave Him the keys to the Kingdom:
Matthew 16 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
Thereby giving Simon the authority to save. He can open and close the door to heaven, therefore, he can save.
And so, the Pope, the successor of Peter, is the representative of God before His People.
As stated in the previous response. The Pope represents Jesus Christ. When we kiss the Pope's feet, we kiss Jesus' feet. Do the Scriptures forbid kissing Jesus' feet?Quote:
11. The kissing of the Pope's feet began in 709AD. It had been a pagan custom to kiss the feet of emperors. The Word of God forbids such practices. (Read Acts 10:25-26; Rev. 19: 1 0; 22:9).
Luke 7 38 And standing behind at his feet, she began to wash his feet, with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.
But Jesus established the Kingdom of God in our midst.Quote:
12. The Temporal power of the Popes began 750AD. When Pepin, the usurper of the throne of France, descended into Italy, called by Pope Stephen II, to war against the Italian Lombards, he defeated them and gave the city of Rome and surrounding territory to the pope. Jesus expressly forbade such a thing, and He himself refused worldly kingship. (Read Matt 4:8-9; 20:25-26; John 18:38).
Matthew 12 28 But if I by the Spirit of God cast out devils, then is the kingdom of God come upon you.
We only worship God. We venerate the Cross and images and relics in obedience to Scripture:Quote:
13. Worship of cross, of images and relics was authorized in 788AD. This was by order of Dowager Empress Irene of Constantinople, who first caused to pluck the eyes of her own son, Constantine VI, and then called a church council at the request of Hadrian I, pope of Rome at that time.
4 Kings 13 21 And some that were burying a man, saw the rovers, and cast the body into the sepulchre of Eliseus. And when it had touched the bones of Eliseus, the man came to life, and stood upon his feet.
Acts Of Apostles 19 12 So that even there were brought from his body to the sick, handkerchiefs and aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the wicked spirits went out of them.
Directly from Scripture:Quote:
14. Holy Water, mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by the priest, was authorized in 850AD.
Numbers 5 17 And he shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and he shall cast a little earth of the pavement of the tabernacle into it.
This prayer is among the earliest prayers to St. Joseph, (from around A.D. 50) and also one of the best known:Quote:
15. The veneration of St. Joseph began in 890AD.
Oh St. Joseph, whose protection is so great, so strong, so prompt before the throne of God, I place in you all my interests and desires....
Prayers to St. Joseph: To the Most Loving of Fathers
Baptism means washing. Did you think that bells have souls?Quote:
16. The baptism of bells was instituted by Pope John XIV, in the year 965AD.
The term "dead saints" is an oxymoron. Saints are alive in Christ. Anyone who is not a saint is dead in their sins.Quote:
17. Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV in 995AD. Every believer and follower of Christ is called saint in the Bible. (Read Rom, 1:7; I Cor. 1:2).
Actually this is to remember the multiplication of the fish and at the same to time to fulfill Jesus' prophecy:Quote:
18. Fasting on Fridays and during Lent were imposed in the year 998AD.
Imposed by popes said to be interested in the commerce of fish. (Bull, or permit to eat meat), some authorities say, began in the year 7OOAD. This is against the plain teaching of the bible. (Read Matt.15:10 1Cor. 10:25; 1Tim.4:1-3).
Matthew 9 15 And Jesus said to them: Can the children of the bridegroom mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then they shall fast.
You say this because you don't understand Scripture. This is how St. Paul described the Mass:Quote:
19. The Mass was developed gradually as a sacrifice;
1 Corinthians 5 7 Purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new paste, as you are unleavened. For Christ our pasch is sacrificed.
Again, you say this because you don't understand the word of God:Quote:
attendance made obligatory in the 11th century.
Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in fulness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with clean water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering (for he is faithful that hath promised), 24 And let us consider one another, to provoke unto charity and to good works: 25 Not forsaking our assembly, as some are accustomed; but comforting one another, and so much the more as you see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. 28 A man making void the law of Moses, dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people.
In other words, if you forsake the assembly, you trod underfoot the sacrifice of Christ and have esteemed His blood as unclean and have insulted the Holy Spirit.
Can't get much clearer:
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
The Mass makes present the self same sacrifice of Jesus Christ. This is how Jesus applies the graces of His sacrifice ONCE FOR ALL. It is not repeated. Is that even possible? Tell me, how can anyone grab hold of Jesus and put Him on the cross to kill Him again?Quote:
The Bible teaches that the sacrifice of Christ was offered once and for all, and not to be repeated, but only commerated in the Lord's Supper. (Read Heb.7:27; 9:26-28; 10: I 0- 14).
cont'd
cont'd
Again, this is from Scripture:Quote:
20. The celibacy of the priesthood was decreed by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII, in the year 1079AD. Jesus imposed no such rule, nor did any of the apostles. On the contrary, St. Peter was a married man, and St. Paul says that bishops were to have wife and children. (Read 1st Tim. 3:2,5, and 12: Matt 8:14-15).
1 Corinthians 7 31 And they that use this world, as if they used it not: for the fashion of this world passeth away. 32 But I would have you to be without solicitude. He that is without a wife, is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God. 33 But he that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of the world, how he may please his wife: and he is divided. 34 And the unmarried woman and the virgin thinketh on the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she that is married thinketh on the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
No it isn't.Quote:
21. The Rosary, or prayer beads was introduced by Peter the Hermit, in the year 1090AD. Copied from Hindus and Mohammedans 1090AD. The counting of prayers is a pagan practice and is expressly condemned by Christ (Matt 6:5-13).
1. Jews were counting their prayers and using beads as aids in praying the 100 psalms since back in the Old Testament times.
2. The Rosary is a meditation on the life of Christ.
3. Neither of which is forbidden by Christ anywhere in Scripture.
The only way you can come to that conclusion is if you are twisting the Scriptures to your own condemnation.
The Inquisition was a defense against Jews and Muslims who were attacking the Church of Jesus Christ.Quote:
22. The Inquisition of heretics was instituted by the Council of Verona in the year 1184. Jesus never taught the use of force to spread His religion... 1184AD.
Indulgence is the word for keeping your treasure in heaven:Quote:
23. The sale of Indulgence, commonly regarded as a purchase of forgiveness and a permit to indulge in sin, began in the year 1190AD. Christianity, as taught in the Bible, condemns such a traffic, and it was the protest against this traffic that brought on the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century.
Luke 12 33 Sell what you possess and give alms. Make to yourselves bags which grow not old, a treasure in heaven which faileth not: where no thief approacheth, nor moth corrupteth.
Mark 12 43 And calling his disciples together, he saith to them: Amen I say to you, this poor widow hath cast in more than all they who have cast into the treasury.
Note that Jesus is advising that we should give the Church money (ie alms).
Spiritual truths are understood by the Spiritual man. Apparently your carnal mind has not believed what Jesus taught:Quote:
24. The dogma of Transubstantiation was decreed by Pope Innocent III, in the year 1215AD. By this doctrine the priest pretends to perform a daily miracle by changing a wafer into the body of Christ, and then he pretends to eat Him alive in the presence of his people during Mass. The Bible condemns such absurdities; for the Lords Supper is simply a memorial of the sacrifice of Christ. The spiritual presence of Christ is implied in the Lord's Supper is simply a memorial of the sacrifice of Christ. The spiritual presence of Christ is implied in the Lord's Supper. (Read Luke 22:19-20; John 6:35; I Cor. 11:26).
John 6 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.
That is the precise description of transubstantiation. Jesus said it.
How, I wonder, will the Church be able to forgive sins, if one does not confess them to a Priest?Quote:
25. Confession of sins to the priest at least once a year was instituted by Pope Innocent III, in the Lateran Council, in the year 1215AD. The Bible commands us to confess our sins direct to God. (Read Psalm. 51: 1 - 10; Luke 7:48; 15:21; John 1:8-9). 26. The adoration of the wafer (Host), was decreed by Pope Honorius in the year in 1220AD. So the Roman Church worships a God made by human hands. This is plain idolatry and absolutely contrary to the spirit of the Gospel. (Read John 4:24).
John 20 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
A mixture of truth and lies.Quote:
27. The Bible forbidden to laymen and placed in the Index of forbidden books by the Council of Valencia in 1229AD.
Were Bibles forbidden to the laity? Yes. Bibles which weren't interpreted correctly.
Bible Burning and other Allegations
No He didn't. He was challenging the Jews to check the Old Testament to see that He was there described. But He acknowledged that they didn't understand the Scriptures, that is why they didn't believe Him.Quote:
Jesus commanded that the Scriptures should be read by all. (John5:39: lTim.3:15-17).
You mean 2 Tim 3:15-17. 1 Tim 3:15 says that the Church is the Pillar of Truth.Quote:
lTim.3:15-17
2 Tim is about St. Paul teaching St. Timothy to teach and preach the word of God. 2 Tim 3:15-17 merely says that the Scriptures are profitable but not necessary for such a task.
Not so. It is recognizing that God works through even material things. Just as St. Paul could pass on his blessings though handkerchiefs and aprons.Quote:
28. The Scapular was invented by Simon Stock, an English monk, in the year... 1287AD. It is a piece of brown cloth, with the picture of the Virgin and supposed to contain supernatural virtue to protect from all dangers those who wear it on naked skin. It is fetishism.
The Scriptures also recognizes the Church's authority to bind and loose (Matt 16:19). It is by means of this authority that the Church forbade the cup to the laity in order to identify the heretics who believed the same heresy which you are repeating in that statement.Quote:
29. The Roman Church forbade the cup to the laity, by instituting the communion of one kind in the Council of Constance n 1414AD. The Bible commands us to celebrate the Lord's Supper with unleavened bread and the fruit of the vine. (Read Matt. 26:27; I Cor. 11:26-29).
But Scripture is clear:
1 Corinthians 11 27 Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.
In other words, if we eat the bread unworthily, we are guilty of the body and the blood.
If we drink the chalice unworthily, we are guilty of the body and the blood.
The converse is therefore also true. If we eat the bread worthily, we have partaken the body and the blood. If we drink of the chalice worthily, we have partaken of the body and the blood.
Purgatory is clearly explained in 1 Cor 3:15Quote:
30. The doctrine of Purgatory was proclaimed as a dogma of faith by Council of Florence in 1439AD. There is not one word in the Bible that would teach the purgatory of priests. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sins. (Read I John 1:7-9; 2:1-2; John 5:24; Rom. 8: 1).
11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
Since you already believe in Baptism and the Lord's Supper (Eucharist), I only need to prove five more:Quote:
31. The doctrine of 7 Sacraments affirmed in 1439AD. The Bible says that Christ instituted only two ordinances, Baptism and the Lord's Supper. (Read Matt. 28:19-20; 26:26-28).
CONFESSION
John 20 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
CONFIRMATION
Ephesians 1 10 In the dispensation of the fulness of times, to re-establish all things in Christ, that are in heaven and on earth, in him. 11 In whom we also are called by lot, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things according to the counsel of his will. 12 That we may be unto the praise of his glory, we who before hoped Christ: 13 In whom you also, after you had heard the word of truth, (the gospel of your salvation;) in whom also believing, you were signed with the holy Spirit of promise, 14 Who is the pledge of our inheritance, unto the redemption of acquisition, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, hearing of your faith that is in the Lord Jesus, and of your love towards all the saints,
MARRIAGE
Matthew 19 6 Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.
HOLY ORDERS
1 Tim 4 14 Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophesy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood.
ANOINTING OF THE SICK
James 5 14 Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
The Ave Maria, in English, the Hail Mary is a prayer directly from Scripture.Quote:
32. The Ave Maria, part of the last half in 1508AD. It was completed 50 years afterward and finally approved by Pope Sixths V, at the end of the 16th century.
Luke 1 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Luke 1 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
Luke 1 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Mother of my Lord is mother of God.
I guess Scripture misunderstood that part. Let's see what St. Paul says:Quote:
33. The Council of Trent, held in the year 1545, declared that Tradition is of equal authority with the Bible 1545AD. By tradition is meant human teachings. The Pharisees believed the same way, and Jesus bitterly condemned them, for by teaching human tradition, they nullified the commandments of God. (Read Mark 7:7-13; Col. 2:8; Rev. 22:18).
2 Thessalonians 2 14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.
Looks as though the Catholic Church is teaching Scripture. Whereas you seem to be rejecting Scripture.
Actually, Jesus taught from the Septuagint Old Testament which contains the Deuterocanon which you call the Apocrypha.Quote:
34. The apocryphal books were added to the Bible also by the Council of Trent in 1546 These books were not recognized as canonical by the Jewish Church. (See Rev. 22:8-9).
Luther took those seven books out in his attempt to discard anything which contradicted his teachings. He also attempted to throw out the book of Hebrews and the Epistle of James which he called the epistle of straw.
I have no idea what you are talking about. The Nicene creed is a summary of Christian beliefs which is universally held by Catholics and Protestants. It was defined in the council of Nicea in the year 325 ad.Quote:
35. The Creed of Pope Pius IV was imposed as the official creed 1560 years after Christ and the apostles, in 1560AD. True Christians retain the Holy Scriptures as their creed. Hence their creed is 1500 years older than the creed of Roman Catholics. (Read Gal. 1:8).
Although it was defined in the year 1854 in response to the objections of many Protestants over the doctrine which has always been held by the Church. The Bible does not say that all men without exception are sinners. Otherwise it would contradict itself:Quote:
36. The Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius IX in the year 1854AD. The Bible states that all men, with the sole exception of Christ, are sinners. Mary herself had need of a Savior. (Read Rom. 3:23; 5:12; Psalm. 51:5; Luke 1:30,46,47).
Romans 5 14 But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned after the similitude of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come.
And it would also contradict logic which says that children before the age of reason can't sin since they don't know what they are doing.
We can confirm this truth because Enoch and Elijah went to heaven without experiencing death. Yet Scripture says, "the wages of sin is death." Therefore, neither Enoch nor Elijah sinned.
Nah. You're letting your demon inspired imagination run away with you. The Pope as representative of Jesus Christ must be infallible. Jesus sent him to teach His truths:Quote:
37. In the year 1870 after Christ, Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of Papal Infallibility 1870AD. This is a blasphemy and the sign of the apostasy and of the antichrist predicted by St. Paul. (Read II These. 2:2-12; Rev. 17:1-9; 13:5-8,18). Many Bible students see the number of the beast (Rev. 13:18). 666 in the Roman letters of the Pope's title: "VICARIVS FILLII DEI." -V.5, I-1; C-100, l-l: v-5, 1-1; L-50, 1-1; 1-1-Total, 666.
John 20 21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.
The Father sent Jesus to teach infallibly. Therefore Jesus sent His Church to teach infallibly.
I never heard of this. Perhaps you could show an example. Otherwise we can relegate it to your warped imagination.Quote:
38. Pope Pius X, in the year 1907, condemned together with 'Modernish", all the discoveries of modern science which are not approved by the Church... 1907AD. Pius IX had done the same thing in the Syllabus of 1864.
We can see why today in the United States where Humanism reigns supreme as the institutional religion of the Public Schools.Quote:
39. In the year 1930 Pius XI, condemned the Public Schools... 1930AD.
cont'd
Cont'd
It is from Scripture:Quote:
40. In the year 1931 the same pope Pius XI, reaffirmed the doctrine that Mary is "the Mother of God... 1931AD. This doctrine was first invented by the Council of Ephesus in the year 431AD. . This is a heresy contrary by Mary's own words. (Read Luke 1:46-49; John 2:1-5).
Luke 1 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
And it is logically explained.
Mary is Jesus' mother.
Jesus is God.
Therefore Mary is the Mother of God.
From Scripture:Quote:
41. In the year 1950 the last dogma was proclaimed by Pope Pius XII, the Assumption of the Virgin Mary... 1950AD
Apocalypse 12 1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars:
Another error which you make because you don't understand Scripture.Quote:
42. (Revelation 17:9)The Roman Catholic Church is the Woman of seven hills
The Catholic Church is headquartered in the Vatican. On Vatican Hill. Only one hill.
Rome is associated with the Catholic Church because it is right across the Tiber. Rome sits on seven hills. But if we add Vatican Hill, that makes eight.
You forgot Vatican Hill. That makes eight.Quote:
Compton's Pictured Encyclopedia, 1948, Volume 12, page 144, also tells us about the city of seven hills.
... the "City of Seven Hills."... the Capitoline, Palatine, Aventine, Quirinal, Viminal, Esquiline, and Caelian hills.. . the seat of the papacy, the head of the great Roman Catholic Church.
In addition, the Protestant Bible, the King James says that the city upon which the whore sits itself sits upon seven mountains. Only one city meets that description:
Jerusalem. Lets look at this question in more detail:
Babylon described as a whore:
Revelation 17 1And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
Israel is described as a whore:
Hosea 9 1Rejoice not, O Israel, for joy, as other people: for thou hast gone a whoring from thy God,
Thou hast loved a reward upon every cornfloor.
Jerusalem described as a harlot (which is another word for whore):
Isaiah 1 21How is the faithful city become an harlot! It was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
Ezekiel 16 1Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations, ….15But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.
Babylon is clothed in finery:
Rev 17 4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Jerusalem clothed in finery:
Ez 16 10I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk. 11I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck. 12And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head. 13Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom. 14And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD. 15But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.
Babylon kills the prophets and saints:
Rev 17 6And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs
Of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Jerusalem kills the prophets and saints:
Matthew 23 33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Babylon is described as "that great city":
Rev 17: 18And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
Rev 18: 10Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour is thy judgment come.
The "great city" is the city in which Jesus was crucified:
Rev 11: 8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. . The Kings of the earth gathered in Jerusalem to crucify Christ.
Rev 17: 2With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication
Acts 4: 26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Babylon and Jerusalem are built on seven mountains:
Revelation 17: 9And here is the understanding that hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, upon which the woman sitteth, and they are seven kings:
Jerusalem is built on seven mountains: Mt. Goath, Mt. Gareb, Mt. Acra, Mt. Bezetha, Mt. Zion, Mt. Ophel, and Mt. Moriah.
Babylon is destroyed by fire:
Rev 18: 8Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire
Jerusalem is destroyed by fire:
Ez 23: 25And I will set my jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and thy remnant shall fall by the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire.
God calls His people out of that city:
Rev 18: 4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Paul calls people out of Jerusalem:
Heb 13: 12Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. 13Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. 14For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
The harlot, Jerusalem is redeemed:
Isaiah 2 1The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Revelation 21: 10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
All of that is directly from Scripture. . Try as I might, I couldn't find any reference to Rome as a whore or harlot in Scripture. Try as I might I could find no reference to the Catholic Church as a whore or a harlot in Scripture.
You are simply taking liberties with Scripture. You have absolutely no support for any of your conclusions. It is simply your Satan inspired imagination run amok.Quote:
43 THE PAPACY 8th head of the beast
1Egypt
2Babylon(Lion)
3Medo-Persia (Bear)
4Greece (Leopard)
5 Pagan Rome
6 Empirial Rome
7 Papal Rome(little horn power see daniel) 538AD vigiluis 2 - 1870 AD
8 Vatican- 1929 Lateran treaty Under Mussolini ( The beast that received wound on the head but healed will to perdition)
Amen! It is the Catholic Church which made it possible for you to have the Bible which you so cherish. Remember that.Quote:
12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
7Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Oh dear Lenox, seems people have been shopping for you...
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...g?t=1238615782
Ben, is that stuff MSG Free? If so, please tell me where to get some! :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
I don't understand, who says the Scriptures don't support RC Traditions? And which cases would those be that contradict them?
Yeah, what now?
JoeT
Are you saying that when the Pope speaks "Ex cathedra" that is not equal to Scripture?Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJ
And as to some conflicts, I see that Jesus specifially said that NO apostle would exercise rule over the others.
Also Jesus told us to not call any man FATHER upon this Earth.
Jesus made it plain that His mother did not take precedence over any other believer.
And there is that thing about forbidding to marry.
I can give you Scripture if you want, but we have plowed this field before, so there's not mich point in it.
First I will address marriage, it is not scripture or doctrine for Priests not to marry, it is merely a church rule, Like some protestant churches only having communion once a year, that rule can be changed anytime.
The fact is there are married catholic Priests and were even a married Bishop at Vactican II.
Only the Roman Rite within the catholic church has this rule, and even then, many priests who are married but come from Lutheran, Anglican, and Orthodox are allowed into the Roman Rite as a married priest, From my own line of succession, is one of the married Bishops who went back to Rome.
Also all of the Eastern Rites that are in communion with Rome allow married Priest. This is only a rule that is used in administration, as the Methodist require their pastors to go to the churches, the district order them to go, with the local church having little say,
Next the term Father is not a real title, it comes from common usage, and is used by Anglican, Orthodox, Epispial and more. In fact I would almost think there are more christian pastors called father than are not.
The actual title is priest or rector but the title father is used as a title of love and respect.
So the issue of marry is silly since it is not a issue, it has not part of their scripture, it is merly a church management tool, and the issue of father was one of title and giving them special status because of their title. Read the rest of the verse not just the one line.
Bring it, please. I'd like to compare the Scripture upon which you base your belief to the one upon which we base ours.Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Yes. The Pope speaks in the service of the Word of God to explain the Word of God. He is the servant of the Word of God. Not Its equal nor Its master.Quote:
Are you saying that when the Pope speaks "Ex cathedra" that is not equal to Scripture?
Ex Cathedra means from the Chair. We find that Jesus made this statement when speaking to the Jews:
Matthew 23:2
Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Why did Jesus' make this statement? Because God had appointed Moses' as His representative before the people:
Exodus 19:9
And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.
Note that Moses' understood and would SIT before the people that they might know God's will:
Exodus 18:14
And when Moses' father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even?
Exodus 18:15
And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to enquire of God:
This role has now been given to Simon Peter by Jesus Christ:
Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Jesus is the Rock. And by giving Simon His name, Jesus has signified that Simon is His representative to the people:
John 21:16
He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
The commandment says, honor thy father...Quote:
Also Jesus told us to not call any man FATHER upon this Earth.
How does one honor his father if he can't acknowledge him.
Apparently the Apostles did not have any problem acknowledging fatherhood:
Philippians 2:22
But ye know the proof of him, that, as a son with the father, he hath served with me in the gospel.
Here St. Paul describes himself as a father to Timothy.
1 Thessalonians 2:11
As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children,
Here he describes himself and the other elders as fathers to their flocks.
Please provide the Scripture. Because Jesus did not contradict Scripture and Scripture says that Mary is blessed above women.Quote:
Jesus made it plain that His mother did not take precedence over any other believer.
Luke 1:28
And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
The Church forbids no one to marry. Anyone who wants to be a priest has a choice. He can marry or do whatever. But if he is to be a priest, he must keep God first:Quote:
And there is that thing about forbidding to marry.
1 Cor 7 32But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: 33But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.
Do you know when any pope has spoken "ex cathedra" and what he said?Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I was speaking to gal. I know you know, De Maria.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Interesting topic. Maybe a new one. However, the only two ex cathedra statements I have been able to find are the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
What strikes me about these two pronouncements are 1) their minutiae, and 2) the impossibility to challenge them.
One longs for ex cathedra statements re important matters.
Ex Cathedra was defined by the first Vatican Council, Sess. IV: "We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable."Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
The only declaration made Ex Cathedra regarding doctrine that comes to mind immediately is that of is Ineffabilis Deus by Pope Pius IX on December 8, 1854. If my memory serves me right it may be the only case.
Pope Pius declared:
Accordingly, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, for the honor of the Holy and undivided Trinity, for the glory and adornment of the Virgin Mother of God, for the exaltation of the Catholic Faith, and for the furtherance of the Catholic religion, by the authority of Jesus Christ our Lord, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own: "We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful."
Speaking Ex Cathedra shouldn’t be confused with the infallibility of the teaching authority of the universal Church, magisterium universale et ordinarium. In speaking Ex Cathedra those words are taken to be infallible. The doctrine of infallibility is found in the following verses, Matthew 28:18-20; Matthew 16:18; John 14, 15, and 16; I Timothy 3:14-15; and Acts 15:28 sq. Infallibility of the Magisterium is based on Christ’s commissioning of His Church as a visible organ, with the universal authority to impose solemn obligations in order to be a member of a corporate unity in faith and morals taught, and governed in official service to the Church. We hold that Divine assistance protects the Pope from the liability of error in the doctrine of morals and faith.
Practically speaking, Christ does not leave us without establishing a means by which we can infallibly rely on matters of faith. Thus in commissioning His Church we receive a Tradition taught by Christ Himself through the Apostles and their successors, Holy Scriptures memorializing firsthand accounts of witnesses along with a theology and the Holy Church itself to infallibly teach and govern over the faithful. What’s at stake is the eternal disposition of the soul and the Catholic Church gives us that absolute assurance of salvation so often touted by others.
Peter was specifically made the first Pope, a rock of a Pope in Matt 16:18.Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
This argument is as counterfeit as they come. I suppose you don’t call your dad ‘father’. What’s suggested in Matthew 23:7-8 is to avoid those who would ask for obedience of faith as the Father in Heaven asks for obedience. Do you realize how just plain dumb this argument is?Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
If Hevenly Angels give the deference of an obedient servant, I’ll certainly do no less. Refer to Luke, Chapter 1; “Hail Mary full of Grace blessed art thou among women, blessed is the fruit of thy womb.”Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Tell me who in Scripture, besides Christ, is addressed by a Heavenly figure with such veneration, respect, and honor?
Marriage is not forbidden in the Church, rather marriage is encouraged. Unlike many Protestant Churches, devoice is strongly discouraged.Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
We’ll do as many fields as you have time for.Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
JoeT
I just noticed that I missed this in my previous response.Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
That's not exactly what Jesus meant however:
Matthew 20
25 But Jesus called them to him, and said: You know that the princes of the Gentiles lord it over them; and they that are the greater, exercise power upon them. 26 It shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be the greater among you, let him be your minister: 27 And he that will be first among you, shall be your servant.
What did Jesus mean?
As I understand it, Jesus is telling the Apostles not to exhalt themselves over others, not to become bullies who throw their weight around. This is how I understand the term lord it over them
And Jesus says that if one of us is greater, he must be our minister. The one who is first must be our servant.
And this is the title of the Supreme Pontiff. He is the Servant of the Servants of Christ.
He serves Christ by serving Christ's flock:
John 21 17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.
Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston -- And there is that thing about forbidding to marry.
I think (without going back to look at the context) that gal is talking about priests not being allowed to marry. Having grown up in a family with a minister father, I understand that as a very important "rule" -- very practical. I remember how absorbed my dad was in the life of his parishes. In fact, he told my mother when he asked her to marry him that his life, his first reponsibility, would be the church, and their marriage and family would have to come second. Amazingly, he was able to balance all three of those very well. Church members, wife, and children rarely felt neglected. He was an unusual man.Quote:
De Maria said: Marriage is not forbidden in the Church, rather marriage is encouraged. Unlike many Protestant Churches, devoice is strongly discouraged.
Btw, the mainstream Protestant churches are very much against divorce, but like the Catholic Church, do their best to reach out to divorced and cohabiting parishioners.
Since there were so many replies to this post, I quote it again and give Scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Matt 20:25-27
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
(KJV)
[I]I see where you use the arguent that the Pope is a minister to the priesthood. Are you saying that he does not exercise authority over them, and over all the faithful Catholics? I think he does. Apostolic authority is ONLY in the spiritual realm, and Papal authority goes beyond that as proven by just how far it was extended just a few hundred years ago.[I]
Do you really think Jesus was refering to your NATURAL father when He said call no man father? He also told them not to be called "rabbi". Jesus was teaching against the human desire for titles.Do you not refer to the Pope as HOLY FATHER? That title belongs to God alone.
Matt 12:48-50
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? And who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
(KJV)
With these words, Jesus declared that not even His mother held a position superior to that of those who believe in Him.
I will concede that there are married priests, since Chuck says that it is so.
Now the tradition that conflicts with Scripture.
Matt 12:47
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
(KJV)
Matt 13:55-56
55 Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
(KJV)
John 7:3-5
3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.
4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.
5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.
(KJV)
The tradition of the perpetual virginity of Mary flies in the face of these Scriptures.
Thank you for giving us the "Ex Cathedra" statements. The immaculate conception and the assumption of Mary. What basis is there for either one of these ideas, other than in the mind of a Pope? There is no tradition written or otherwise to support them, and they are both of recent origin.
Galveston, if "Scripture Alone" is all that one needs, then there would not be over 10,000 different "denominations" (aka "sects") of Christianity.
Think about that.
I have to shake my head as to how dumb lenox has to be, if he really believes the hatred he is posting.
I would challenge that the catholic church reads the actual bible more during their church service than almost any other church, With new testement readings, old testment readings, gospel readings each service, They have it planned to do basically the entire bible over a three year period in readings.
Most churches barely read one or two passages and then the pastor spends the next 30 minutes explaining that one verse.
And I assume Lenix forgets that without the catholic Church the bible would have been lost perhaps, it was they the copied, protected it for centeries.
Plus of course attacking other christians is not a christian thing, so most that do nothing but post hatred have no real doctrine beyond that of hatred.
If mean by "dumb": Not knowledgeable, then I have to agree.
Thankfully, this sort of "if you don't believe what I believe, then you are evil or doomed to hell" sentiment is far less than it was when I was a kid... but sadly, we have here evidence that it is still going on :(
Also the poster does not like to follow rules, since after being banned under one user name, they have returned under this name.
Surely, Brother, you realize what a weak argument that is?Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJ
This is not uncommon. Members who realize that we are serious about the rules - and follow them (see the Help link at the top and right of every page) are welcome to return.
None of us (forum administrators or moderators) are perfect, so we will forgive others as we wish to be forgiven ourselves ;)
No, I don't recognize how weak that argument is.Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
The biggest reason that I don't recognize it is that I do know that the Bible, as you know it, was not what it is today until about 300 years after Christ.
So what did the earliest Christians rely on?
More info for those of you who rely on "the Bible alone" (aka "Sola Scriptura):
Sola Scriptura is the idea that the Bible is sufficient of itself to be the only source of Christian doctrine. It’s the basis of most Protestant “denomination” doctrine.
If we believe in this doctrine, then we should find it in the Bible: If we say that all doctrine should be found in the Bible, then we should find the doctrine of Sola Scriptura in the Bible, right?
Right. That would be logical…but the problem is that we do not find this in the Bible.
The scripture passage so often cited by proponents of Sola Scriptura is 2 Timothy 3: 15-17, however you shall see that Paul teaches nothing of the sort:
2 Timothy 3: 15-17:
“…from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
Here there is not even the slightest implication that Scripture is the sole source of doctrine. Indeed, it affirms the value of Scripture - and that it is from God (which Catholics are taught), however nothing implies that it is all we need. To say that Scripture is “useful” is one thing, but to say it is the only writing that ought to be followed is another altogether.
Not only is the idea of Sola Scriptura not found in Scripture, itself, the New Testament, in fact, teaches against it:
2 Thessalonians 2:15
” So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.”
1 Corinthians 11:2
“I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you.”
2 Timothy 1:13-14
“What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.”
2 Timothy 2:1-2
“You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.”
The Bible is indeed the Word of God and without error, but neither Christ nor the Bible teach such an idea as Sola Scriptura.
The doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity is recent? Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Here are a few of the ancient Christian writers who believed in this doctrine:
Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Athanasius, Hilary of Poitiers, Epiphanius of Salamis, Ambrose of Milan, Jerome (who devoted an entire work to the subject), Augustine, John Damascene, and Cyril of Alexandria.
You're of course more than welcome to look them up on your own. It will do you good to read the writings of some early Christians. Very informative.
I am always astounded that so many people who claim that Christianity is an important part of their lives don't take the time to learn about its history.
Sadly, Rick, that ship has sailed. There are already well over 30,000 Protestant denominations alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJ
You are correct, Akoue. The idea that Mary was "ever virgin" is what many, if not most, early Christians believed.
Here are some quotes from early Christian writers:
The Protoevangelium of James
"And behold, an angel of the Lord stood by [St. Anne], saying, 'Anne! Anne! The Lord has heard your prayer, and you shall conceive and shall bring forth, and your seed shall be spoken of in all the world.' And Anne said, 'As the Lord my God lives, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God, and it shall minister to him in the holy things all the days of its life.'.. . And [from the time she was three] Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there" (Protoevangelium of James 4, 7 [A.D. 120]).
"And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of priests, saying, 'Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, lest perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord?' And they said to the high priest, 'You stand by the altar of the Lord; go in and pray concerning her, and whatever the Lord shall manifest to you, that also will we do.'.. . [A]and he prayed concerning her, and behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him saying, 'Zechariah! Zechariah! Go out and assemble the widowers of the people and let them bring each his rod, and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be.. . And Joseph [was chosen].. . And the priest said to Joseph, 'You have been chosen by lot to take into your keeping the Virgin of the Lord.' But Joseph refused, saying, 'I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl'" (ibid., 8–9).
"And Annas the scribe came to him [Joseph].. . And saw that Mary was with child. And he ran away to the priest and said to him, 'Joseph, whom you did vouch for, has committed a grievous crime.' And the priest said, 'How so?' And he said, 'He has defiled the virgin whom he received out of the temple of the Lord and has married her by stealth'" (ibid., 15).
"And the priest said, 'Mary, why have you done this? And why have you brought your soul low and forgotten the Lord your God?'.. . And she wept bitterly saying, 'As the Lord my God lives, I am pure before him, and know not man'" (ibid.).
Origen
"The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word.. . Might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity" (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).
Hilary of Poitiers
"If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Mary's sons and not those taken from Joseph's former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, 'Woman, behold your son,' and to John, 'Behold your mother' [John 19:26–27), as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate" (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354]).
Athanasius
"Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary" (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).
Epiphanius of Salamis
"We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit" (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).
"And to holy Mary, [the title] 'Virgin' is invariably added, for that holy woman remains undefiled" (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 78:6 [A.D. 375]).
Jerome
"[Helvidius] produces Tertullian as a witness [to his view] and quotes Victorinus, bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian, I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. [By discussing such things we] are.. . Following the tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against [the heretics] Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man" (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).
"We believe that God was born of a virgin, because we read it. We do not believe that Mary was married after she brought forth her Son, because we do not read it.. . You [Helvidius] say that Mary did not remain a virgin. As for myself, I claim that Joseph himself was a virgin, through Mary, so that a virgin Son might be born of a virginal wedlock" (ibid., 21).
Didymus the Blind
"It helps us to understand the terms 'first-born' and 'only-begotten' when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin 'until she brought forth her first-born son' [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the Mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin" (The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386]).
Ambrose of Milan
"Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of material virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son" (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388]).
Pope Siricius I
"You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord's body, that court of the eternal king" (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]).
Augustine
"In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave" (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).
"It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?" (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).
"Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband" (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).
Leporius
"We confess, therefore, that our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, born of the Father before the ages, and in times most recent, made man of the Holy Spirit and the ever-virgin Mary" (Document of Amendment 3 [A.D. 426]).
Cyril of Alexandria
"[T]he Word himself, coming into the Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for himself his own temple from the substance of the Virgin and came forth from her a man in all that could be externally discerned, while interiorly he was true God. Therefore he kept his Mother a virgin even after her childbearing" (Against Those Who Do Not Wish to Confess That the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God 4 [A.D. 430]).
Pope Leo I
"His [Christ's] origin is different, but his [human] nature is the same. Human usage and custom were lacking, but by divine power a Virgin conceived, a Virgin bore, and Virgin she remained" (Sermons 22:2 [A.D. 450]).
Most Protestants claim that Mary bore children other than Jesus. To support their claim, these Protestants refer to the biblical passages which mention the "brethren of the Lord." As explained in the Catholic Answers tract Brethren of the Lord, neither the Gospel accounts nor the early Christians attest to the notion that Mary bore other children besides Jesus. The faithful knew, through the witness of Scripture and Tradition, that Jesus was Mary's only child and that she remained a lifelong virgin.
An important historical document which supports the teaching of Mary's perpetual virginity is the Protoevangelium of James, which was written probably less than sixty years after the conclusion of Mary's earthly life (around A.D. 120), when memories of her life were still vivid in the minds of many.
According to the world-renowned patristics scholar, Johannes Quasten: "The principal aim of the whole writing [Protoevangelium of James] is to prove the perpetual and inviolate virginity of Mary before, in, and after the birth of Christ" (Patrology, 1:120–1).
To begin with, the Protoevangelium records that when Mary's birth was prophesied, her mother, St. Anne, vowed that she would devote the child to the service of the Lord, as Samuel had been by his mother (1 Sam. 1:11). Mary would thus serve the Lord at the Temple, as women had for centuries (1 Sam. 2:22), and as Anna the prophetess did at the time of Jesus' birth (Luke 2:36–37). A life of continual, devoted service to the Lord at the Temple meant that Mary would not be able to live the ordinary life of a child-rearing mother. Rather, she was vowed to a life of perpetual virginity.
However, due to considerations of ceremonial cleanliness, it was eventually necessary for Mary, a consecrated "virgin of the Lord," to have a guardian or protector who would respect her vow of virginity. Thus, according to the Protoevangelium, Joseph, an elderly widower who already had children, was chosen to be her spouse. (This would also explain why Joseph was apparently dead by the time of Jesus' adult ministry, since he does not appear during it in the gospels, and since Mary is entrusted to John, rather than to her husband Joseph, at the crucifixion).
According to the Protoevangelium, Joseph was required to regard Mary's vow of virginity with the utmost respect. The gravity of his responsibility as the guardian of a virgin was indicated by the fact that, when she was discovered to be with child, he had to answer to the Temple authorities, who thought him guilty of defiling a virgin of the Lord. Mary was also accused of having forsaken the Lord by breaking her vow. Keeping this in mind, it is an incredible insult to the Blessed Virgin to say that she broke her vow by bearing children other than her Lord and God, who was conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit.
The perpetual virginity of Mary has always been reconciled with the biblical references to Christ's brethren through a proper understanding of the meaning of the term "brethren." The understanding that the brethren of the Lord were Jesus' stepbrothers (children of Joseph) rather than half-brothers (children of Mary) was the most common one until the time of Jerome (fourth century). It was Jerome who introduced the possibility that Christ's brethren were actually his cousins, since in Jewish idiom cousins were also referred to as "brethren." The Catholic Church allows the faithful to hold either view, since both are compatible with the reality of Mary's perpetual virginity.
Today most Protestants are unaware of these early beliefs regarding Mary's virginity and the proper interpretation of "the brethren of the Lord." And yet, the Protestant Reformers themselves—Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Ulrich Zwingli—honored the perpetual virginity of Mary and recognized it as the teaching of the Bible, as have other, more modern Protestants.
Source quoted is here.
Yes, Sad but true that we are so divided - despite that Christ's Apostles taught unity - and an embracing of what they taught.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
I have to admit, I don't see any great difference between what lenox has posted here and the claims that are routinely made about Catholicism by some other frequent posters. In fact, the only real difference--so far as I can tell--is that lenox has posted these ridiculous claims all together in a single list rather than inserting them one or two at a time into a number of separate threads. The content and "quality" of the claims seems remarkably similar to stuff we see here all the time, though I have to admit that lenox has done us all a favor by assembling them as he has done. Taken together, as opposed to a few at a time, it's much easier to appreciate the absurdity and historical flimsiness of the anti-Catholic propaganda by which many uninformed souls are so often gulled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Exactly right. I've been surprised how many professing Christians don't appear to take Christian unity as a goal toward which we should all be striving. I suspect you and I agree that the disunity of Christians is itself a sin which we ought all to endeavor to remedy. It is so encouraging to see the progress that is being made on a great many fronts, especially between the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox patriarchates.Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJ
Amen and amen. Christ's Church is ONE. There are no ifs ands or butts. He did not preach sects or "denominations"...
Those that He chose as His leaders preached (in the Bible) against divisions.
(psst: See the first item in my signature).
... and for those of you who might accuse me of going against the rules, I am not. In my 7000+ posts here you will NOT find me referring to my personal websites on more than what you can count on one hand... and they'll all be here in the "discussion" forums where the rules are admittedly relaxed a bit :D
Another version of the same teaching in the KJV says:Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Mark 10:42
But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Jesus did not hinder the Church from exercising authority over her disciples. He warned against the abuse of authority.Quote:
[I]I see where you use the arguent that the Pope is a minister to the priesthood. Are you saying that he does not exercise authority over them, and over all the faithful Catholics? I think he does. Apostolic authority is ONLY in the spiritual realm, and Papal authority goes beyond that as proven by just how far it was extended just a few hundred years ago.[I]
Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Matthew 28: 17And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
John 20:23
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
If that were true, St. Paul would not have called himself our father:Quote:
Do you really think Jesus was refering to your NATURAL father when He said call no man father? He also told them not to be called "rabbi". Jesus was teaching against the human desire for titles.Do you not refer to the Pope as HOLY FATHER? That title belongs to God alone.
1 Thessalonians 2:11
As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children,
Therefore St. Paul recognized the spiritual fatherhood of the Priesthood to their flock.
We not only refer to the Pope as Holy Father but to all our Bishops and to the Saints:
Here's an example:
TESTAMENT OF THE HOLY FATHER ST. FRANCIS.
The opuscule which St. Francis called his Testament is a precious document of the highest authority...
The Writings of St. Francis of Assisi: Part I. Admonitions, Rules, etc.: VI. Testament of the Holy Father St. Francis
This refers to St. Francis of Assisi.
In order to understand the Catholic interpretation of this verse we have to determine whether Jesus was here speaking in real terms or metaphorically.Quote:
Matt 12:48-50
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? And who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
(KJV)
With these words, Jesus declared that not even His mother held a position superior to that of those who believe in Him.
Now according to your last words, you say that this verse applies to all who believe in Jesus. You and I believe in Jesus. Yet you and I weren't there. Therefore Jesus must have been speaking metaphorically when He said:
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Wouldn't you agree?
Furthermore, I'm a man, so I can't be anyone's mother in real terms. Nor have I ever heard of any individual who is simultaneously mother, brother and sister to anyone else. Therefore, I vote that Jesus is here speaking metaphorically.
Now, if I haven't convinced you that Jesus is speaking metaphorically, then I really don't know how to proceed.
But if I have convinced you that Jesus is speaking metaphorically, then all we have to do is decide. Is metaphorical dignity equal to real dignity?
I say that real dignity is greater than metaphorical dignity. This is obvious because no Angel has appeared to me and proclaimed my favor or my blessedness before God. Yet this did happen to Mary.
And Scripture does not say of anyone save Mary that they are to be proclaimed blessed throughout all generations.
In order to understand this verse, you must:Quote:
I will concede that there are married priests, since Chuck says that it is so.
Now the tradition that conflicts with Scripture.
Matt 12:47
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
(KJV)
Matt 13:55-56
55 Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
(KJV)
John 7:3-5
3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.
4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.
5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.
(KJV)
The tradition of the perpetual virginity of Mary flies in the face of these Scriptures.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Have you done a thorough study of the language of the Scriptures and of history? Or are you simply repeating the fables of men?
If not, that explains why you fail to realize that the word "brother" has meant much more than "brothers of the womb" from time immemorial. Good friends call themselves "brothers" even today. In fact, if we examine the Scriptures, we see the word brother used to describe the relationship between Abram and Lot. Yet we know that Lot is Abram's nephew.
And a closer examination of Scripture proves that James, Joseph, Simon and Jude are sons of another Mary, not Jesus' mother, but Jesus' aunt. At best, they could be considered half brothers if they were Joseph's children. But that is even disproved in Scripture. Yet we don't need to delve there because you are challenging Mary's perpetual virginity.
Here is what else Scripture says about those individuals who are called Jesus' brethren:
According to some, Scripture attests that Jesus had brothers, sons of Mary. They base their opinion on this verse:
Matthew 13 55 Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brethren James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Jude:
First, we see that Jesus' mother has a "sister". From Catholic Tradition, we know that Jesus' mother is an only child. So, her sister is really a cousin or other close kin:
John 19 25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus, his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalen.
We also note that this Mary is always mentioned with Mary Magdalen. The two must have been close friends:
Mark 16 1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought sweet spices, that coming, they might anoint Jesus.
Note that in this verse she is not called Mary of Cleophas, but Mary the mother of James.
Mark 15 40 And there were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joseph, and Salome:
Here she is the mother of James and Joseph and Salome. The mention of Salome explains the "sisters" of Jesus. Since Mary the sister of Mary His Mother is also His sister or kin.
Matthew 27 56 Among whom was Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.
Luke 24 10 And it was Mary Magdalen, and Joanna, and Mary of James, and the other women that were with them, who told these things to the apostles.
Sometimes she is called "the other" Mary.
Matthew 27 61 And there was there Mary Magdalen, and the other Mary sitting over against the sepulchre.
OK, so far we've established that James and Joseph are the sons of the other Mary. Not of Jesus' mother.
What about Simon and Jude.
Luke 6 16 And Jude, the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, who was the traitor.
Well, Jude is the brother of James. He says so himself:
Jude 1 1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James: to them that are beloved in God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called.
And, although Simon the Zealot is rarely mentioned, when he is mentioned, he is always grouped with either James or Jude.
Luke 6 15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alpheus, and Simon who is called Zelotes,
Acts Of Apostles 1 13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James of Alpheus, and Simon Zelotes, and Jude the brother of James.
If we review the listing of Apostles, we will see that the Apostle mentioned as Thaddeus must be Jude and Simon the Zelotes must be Simon the Cananean:
Mark 3 16 And to Simon he gave the name Peter: 17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he named them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder: 18 And Andrew and Philip, and Bartholomew and Matthew, and Thomas and James of Alpheus, and Thaddeus, and Simon the Cananean: 19 And Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
Matthew 10 2 And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, 3 James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus, 4 Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
Acts Of Apostles 1 13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James of Alpheus, and Simon Zelotes, and Jude the brother of James.
Luke 6 13 And when day was come, he called unto him his disciples; and he chose twelve of them (whom also he named apostles). 14 Simon, whom he surnamed Peter, and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, 15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alpheus, and Simon who is called Zelotes, 16 And Jude, the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, who was the traitor.
So, we see that James, Joseph, Jude and Simon are related to Jesus. But they are not the sons of Mary, but her distant kin and thus also Jesus kin.
Therefore, they're existence does not disprove the perpetual virginity of Mary.
You should have said that you know of no tradition written or otherwise. The Tradition for both of these doctrines is as old as Scripture.Quote:
Thank you for giving us the "Ex Cathedra" statements. The immaculate conception and the assumption of Mary. What basis is there for either one of these ideas, other than in the mind of a Pope? There is no tradition written or otherwise to support them, and they are both of recent origin.
First of all, the Immaculate Conception is based in part on the Proto Evangelium:
Genesis 3:15 (King James Version)
15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Therefore, since enmity always existed between the Woman, Mary and Satan, then there was never any covenant between them. Therefore, Mary never sinned.
The Assumption is based on the fact that St. John saw Mary in heaven:
Revelation 12
1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
There you go. Anyone can now compare the Scriptures upon which you base your beliefs and the Scriptures upon which I base mine. They can now make an informed decision.
Sincerely,
De Maria
All this (dogma of perpetal virginity)is in contradiction to the plain historical record that Jesus had (half) brothers and sisters. The Greek word for brethern is adelphos and is taken from alpha and delphus. So what we have is "one womb" which would more accurately show a sibling of the same mother than some more distant relative, although that is possible also. But the Scriptures showing his relatives all use the same word. I will settle for the first definition rather that a more remote one.Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJ
AND if you read my post, that wasn't one that I said was recent.
As to your argument about the number of "protestant" churches: Baptist churches are independent and even ordain at the local level, so there are going to be a LOT of them.
The Pentecostals have several different organizations because they sprang up after the outpouring of the Holy Ghost (1900) in several different parts of the country. What these different groups teach is interchangeable, except for the United Pentecostal which does not accept the Trinity.
And there is not really a lot of difference in what the vast majority believe. The differences are mostly about less important details and structure of the orginazation.
Catholic, Protestant ? What the...
It is still about God and Jesus Christ... right?
Then let us love one another as He has us :)
G&P
I would disagree with your interpretation. In Matthew 13:55 we see the clansmen of Christ, called brothers and sisters as was the custom, who were children of Mary of Cleophas, sister of the Ever Virgin Mary: refer to Matt 27:56, and John 19:25. With proper hermeneutics we see in the Old Testament the word “brother” to express a broad kinship or clanship as well as the word indicating siblings. Following are selected thought from St. Jerome who argued vehemently that to hold that Christ had siblings was an error:Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
17. I say spiritual because all of us Christians are called brethren, as in the verse, Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity. … Shall we say they are brethren by race? … Again, if all men, as such, were His brethren, it would have been foolish to deliver a special message, Behold, your brethren seek you, for all men alike were entitled to the name … Just as Lot was called Abraham's brother, and Jacob Laban's, just as the daughters of Zelophehad received a lot among their brethren, just as Abraham himself had to wife Sarah his sister, for he says, Genesis 20:11 She is indeed my sister, on the father's side, not on the mother's, that is to say, she was the daughter of his brother, not of his sister. St. Jerome, Against Helvidius.
If we were to argue for the literal interpretation of brother so as to insist on Jesus having siblings in this instance, then wouldn’t that redefine John 19:26-27? Jesus says to John, “Behold thy Mother.” Being redefined in our errant insistence on a literal interpretation would add John to James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Jude as siblings of Christ; which of course is nonsense.
JoeT
I remain unconvinced, as do you. I am going to drop the subject, only because it is unproductive.
I do want to clarify this in exiting.
I will defend the fact of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ with everything within me. It doesn't bother me whether Mary remained a virgin or whether she and Joseph later had a house full of children.
What IS important is that Jesus of Nazareth IS the Son of God.
Not only was Mary immaculate but she was the Mother of God and the perpetual virgin.Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
The virginity of Mary has been part of Catholic theology since Christ. Below we see the Council of Ephesus declare the Virgin Mary Mother of God as well as declare that Christ was begotten not made. To believe in anything other than Theotokos is to believe that Jesus Christ was made and not begotten:
Mary birthed God, “conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit” (Cf. Luke 1) The fact that God resided in the womb of Mary is why Mary’s womb was like the Holy of Holies in Moses’ Tabernacle (Cf. Ex 32?-40). To suggest that God resided in an unclean temple simply would have been unimaginable in Christ's time and is as unimaginable as Moses failing to keep the Tabernacle ritually clean. Thus, we conclude that Mary received a special grace from God and made immaculate (without sin).
If anyone says that the Emmanuel is true God, and not rather God with us, that is, that he has united himself to a like nature with ours, which he assumed from the Virgin Mary, and dwelt in it; and if anyone calls Mary the mother of God the Word, and not rather mother of him who is Emmanuel; and if he maintains that God the Word has changed himself into the flesh, which he only assumed in order to make his Godhead visible, and to be found in form as a man, let him be anathema. . Council of Ephesus (A.D. 431)
Given the verse, Jeremiah 31:22 How long wilt thou be dissolute in deliciousness, O wandering daughter? for the Lord hath created a new thing upon the earth: A WOMAN SHALL COMPASS A MAN This establishes that Mary was Immaculate, protected from knowing the sins of Adam, protected from knowing the sins of men. How does one COMPASS Christ the man without ENCOMPASSING the God that is Christ? At the moment Christ was conceived God was infused; at that moment Mary’s Womb would have been spiritually clean; as clean as the ritual cleansing of the Tabernacle of Moses. Thus Mary’s womb became the dwelling place of God, a Holy of Holies. This Tabernacle would have remained pure as did Mary in her of life celibacy. Being literally full of grace, literally, full of Christ, would we, could we, expect less.
I’ll go a step further, not only was Mary Ever Virgin, so was Joseph.
… Mary was a virgin, so that from a virgin wedlock a virgin son was born. For if as a holy man he does not come under the imputation of fornication… the conclusion is that [Joseph] who was thought worthy to be called father of the Lord, remained a virgin. St. Jerome, Against Helvidius.
Thus Mary was immaculate and virgin and Mother of God.
She was the selfless handmaiden of God, blessed among women, full of grace; the “Mother of my Lord.” (Cf. Luke 1) What other person in the New Testament is honored this way?
God was infused into Christ at the moment of conception, within the womb of Mary, Christ, who was man with God infused. Thus after the proper time, Christ was born of Mary as according to “Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. And of his kingdom there shall be no end.” (Luke 1: 31-33)
Mary birthed Christ. Just as we call the woman that gave birth to us, we call Mary the Mother of Christ; conceived in her womb she brought forth a son, the Messiah
JoeT
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