Ask Me Help Desk - The Bible and Homosexuality

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Originally Posted by Tj3

BTW, the OT was written in Hebrew, not Greek.

I did give the Hebrew word and added the Greek parallel in parens.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

But not a sin. Only an offense that requires ritual cleansing.

Where did you see this saying that it was "not a sin"?

Are you telling us that those things which are morally disgusting, and an abhorrence to God are not seen as sin to Him?

Are you saying that following idols and false gods are not sins?

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Originally Posted by classyT

If what you mean by fundametalist Christian is a person who reads the word and believes it without putting any spin on it....hey, count me IN!

Or the "original" (as far back as we can go) language it was written in?

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Originally Posted by classyT

If what you mean by fundametalist Christian is a person who reads the word and believes it without putting any spin on it....hey, count me IN!

Me too!!

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Originally Posted by Tj3

If two men have sex together, whatever possesses you to say that they are straight. At best, an argument could be made for bi-sexual, which is a variant on homosexuality, but straight? Hardly.

Where in prison are the women for the straight men? Are all straight male prisoners chaste?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Or the "original" (as far back as we can go) language it was written in?

How far back do you want to go? We can trace the text back well over 2,000 years now and can see no changes other than things like word spelling changes, a missing letter here or there, and that sort of thing.

No other ancient document can boast of an accuracy even remotely close, and so much evidence to back it up by means of tens of thousands of manuscripts from varied sources.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

We don't have Hebrew????????? Tell that to any Jew and see what they say.

We do have the original content - perhaps the original autograph, but we have the content.

Or you are now going further and denying that the whole Bible can be trusted?

We do? No translator ever made a mistake in copying what was already not the original?

This is off-topic.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Where in prison are the women for the straight men? Are all straight male prisoners chaste?

We could discuss various sexual perversions, and we could discuss the meaning of the word "willpower", but that is simply distracting from the point that a man who has sex with a man is a homosexual to one degree or another.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

We do? No translator ever made a mistake in copying what was already not the original?

This is off-topic.

You should study the evidence. It would boggle you mind to see how accurately the documents have been copied.

BTW - your reference to "translation" is not relevant. The original text was copied, and then subsequently translated. We do not need to depend upon the translation - we can go back to the original language.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

We could discuss various sexual perversions, and we could discuss the meaning of the word "willpower", but that is simply distracting from the point that a man who has sex with a man is a homosexual to one degree or another.

Not necessarily. He performs a homosexual act but does not have to be homosexual to do it.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

You should study the evidence. It would boggle you mind to see how accurately the documents have been copied.

BTW - your reference to "translation" is not relevant. The original text was copied, and then subsequently translated. We do not need to depend upon the translation - we can go back to the original language.

I have studied it, and I apologize about the mistyped word. I meant copyist.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Not necessarily. He performs a homosexual act but does not have to be homosexual to do it.

Really? I can see only one case in which that could be true - the victim of homosexual rape. Past that,

Or do you have your own definition of homosexual

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Homosexual

Adjective
1. sexually attracted to members of your own sex [ant: bisexual, heterosexual]

Noun
1. someone who practices homosexuality; having a sexual attraction to persons of the same sex
WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I have studied it, and I apologize about the mistyped word. I meant copyist.

If you have studied it, then you know that the accuracy of the copying through the centuries is beyond question.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Really? I can see only one case in which that could be true - the victim of homosexual rape.

Prison rape is committed only by homosexuals?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Prison rape is committed only by homosexuals?

No. I heard about a rape of a female prison guard by male prisoners the other day.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

No. I heard about a rape of a female prison guard by male prisoners the other day.

Prison rape has everything to do with power/control and very little, if anything, to do with sex.

***ADDED -- Gang rape during gang initiation of both females and males is the same kind of thing. There are many instances of rape of males and females and even children during war, after a country has been conquered, etc.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Prison rape has everything to do with power/control and very little, if anything, to do with sex.

Sex is involved.

******RESPONSE TO YOUR ADDITION*****

You asked about whether prison rape was all homosexual and I responded. Please try to stay on the same topic.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Sex is involved.

Because that goes right to the heart of a person's most vulnerable self -- physically, emotionally, spiritually. No one is thinking lust and desire. They are only thinking control.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Because that goes right to the heart of a person's most vulnerable self -- physically, emotionally, spiritually. No one is thinking lust and desire. They are only thinking control.

Ignoring your claim to be able to read the minds of others, the definition of "homosexual" does not contain any reference regarding why they do it, therefore your claims are not germaine to the definition of the word.

Added to that, a male who was not interested in another male would be unable to perform a sex act on another man.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

How far back do you want to go? We can trace the text back well over 2,000 years now and can see no changes other than things like word spelling changes, a missing letter here or there, and that sort of thing.

No other ancient document can boast of an accuracy even remotely close, and so much evidence to back it up by means of tens of thousands of manuscripts from varied sources.

This is outright HOGWASH. There are tons of variant readings in the manuscript tradition and many of them are substantial.

That anyone claiming to have studied that history of the Bible and its transmission could say such a thing is just embarrassing. There is a massive cottage industry devoted to the problems associated with the Bible's transmission, and there are catalogues of the variant mss. Readings.

The manuscript traditions is a MESS!

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Ignoring your claim to be able to read the minds of others, the definition of homosexual does not contain any reference regarding why.

Please go to a college or university that houses reputable journals and do a literature search. I am not reading anyone's mind.

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Added to that, a male who was not interested in another male would be unable to perform a sex act on another man.

So all the heterosexual prisoners show their power and control by winning bridge games and trivia contests while munching on tea and crumpets.

Wikipedia -- "...the penetrating partner uses the act primarily to assert control or dominance, thus minimizing this activity as an expression of sexuality per se...."

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Please go to a college or university that houses reputable journals and do a literature search. I am not reading anyone's mind.

I did. But the point remains that your claims are not relevant to the definition of a "homosexual"

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So all the heterosexual prisoners show their power and control by winning bridge games and trivia contests while munching on tea and crumpets.

Try all you wish, the definition does not change (unless of course you go back to the NPGA website <grin>)

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Originally Posted by Tj3

You should study the evidence. It would boggle you mind to see how accurately the documents have been copied.

Surely you mean it would boggle your mind what an abysmal mess the mss. Tradition is. And the earliest mss. Date from relatively late. There are no first or second century mss. Of the NT.

For you to say this means that you have no idea what on earth you are talking about.

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BTW - your reference to "translation" is not relevant. The original text was copied, and then subsequently translated. We do not need to depend upon the translation - we can go back to the original language.

YOU can't. You've never bothered to learn Hebrew or Greek.

Oh, and lots of mss. Aren't in either. I'm guessing you don't read Coptic, Ethiopic, Syriac, or Armenian either.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

This is outright HOGWASH. There are tons of variant readings in the manuscript tradition and many of them are substantial.

Then you should notify the scholars who study this material. I am sure that they would be interested in seeing your new and variant findings.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Surely you mean it would boggle your mind what an abysmal mess the mss. tradition is. And the earliest mss. date from relatively late. There are no first or second century mss. of the NT.

For you to say this means that you have no idea what on earth you are talking about.

YOU can't. You've never bothered to learn Hebrew or Greek.

Oh, and lots of mss. aren't in either. I'm guessing you don't read Coptic, Ethiopic, Syriac, or Armenian either.

I see that you decided to go with the personal attacks and making false claims against me.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I did. But the point remains that your claims are not relevant to the definition of a "homosexual"

Try all you wish, the definition does not change (unless of course you go back to the NPGA website <grin>)

So you give on the prisoner issue. <grin>

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

So you give on the prisoner issue. <grin>

Nice try, but no cigar!!

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Then you should notify the scholars who study this material. I am sure that they would be interested in seeing your new and variant findings.

Now you're just embarrassing yourself. Read some of Kugel's work on the OT, or Metzger (who has written two highly acclaimed books on the subject).

You have just outed yourself, Tom. You have no idea what you are talking about with this. It's a HUGE issue in NT studies. If you had been studying scholarly work on this as you have often claimed you would know better than to make such a ludicrous claim. Clearly your knowledge of the scholarly literature on the OT and NT is profoundly limited. There's just no other way you wouldn't know better than to say something like this in a public forum.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I see that you decided to go with the personal attacks and making false claims against me.

You're a Hebrew and Greek scholar?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Nice try, but no cigar!!!

I don't smoke anyway. *doing a happy dance*

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Now you're just embarassing yourself. Read some of Kugel's work on the OT, or Metzger (who has written two highly acclaimed books on the subject).

I have read plenty, Akoue. Your opinion of me, having seen your assessment of the Bible, and what you have claimed, does not matter in the slightest. I am quite happy to throw in my lot with those who I know have expertise in the field.

I see that most of your posts have now become reduced to attempts at demeaning comments against me. That speaks volumes that you need to go so low to defend your position.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I don't smoke anyway. *doing a happy dance*

Then what is causing your "happy dance"? ;)

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I see that most of your posts have now become reduced to attempts at demeaning comments against me. That speaks volumes that you need to go so low to defend your position.

Ah, another Tomism I can add to the list.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Ah, another Tomism I can add to the list.

If you keep a list, that is fine, but I trust that you are keep the context and the abuse that preceded it. Because I am sure that you would not want to post something mis-leading about someone else, would you :D

Only people who cannot defend themselves with the facts do that.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Then what is causing your "happy dance"? ;)

Your obfuscations which mean you have no clue about prison populations. On to discussion about the OT...

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Only people who cannot defend themselves with the facts do that.

Wow! Two in a row!

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Your obfuscations which mean you have no clue about prison populations.

Wow, another on my list!!

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Your obfuscations which mean you have no clue about prison populations.

Now, why don't you tell us how long you were in prison, and which prison? :)

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I have read plenty, Akoue. Your opinion of me, having seen your assessment of the Bible, and what you have claimed, does not matter in the slightest.

I'm sure they don't. You are apparently even unconstrained by simple grammar. Feel put upon all you like, it doesn't change the fact that you have just outed yourself in a big, big, way.

I'm not sure which "scholars" have put this notion in your head, but by all means, tell us who they are and where they say these preposterous things.

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I see that most of your posts have now become reduced to attempts at demeaning comments against me. That speaks volumes that you need to go so low to defend your position.

Yes, you're adept at playing the victim. We've all seen it before. When you don't like the way things are going for you you accuse others of misrepresenting you and insulting you and on and on. Everybody here has seen it a thousand times.

BTW, most of my posts have nothing whatsoever to do with you.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

I'm sure they don't. You are apparently even unconstrained by simple grammar. Feel put upon all you like, it doesn't change the fact that you have just outed yourself in a big, big, way.

Akoue, if you were as sure of yourself as your claim, and if you knew as much about the topic as you claim, you would not need to make on-going personal demeaning and abusive comments.

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BTW, most of my posts have nothing whatsoever to do with you.

You should read what you say.

Let me challenge you - if you really think that you are so knowledgeable, why don't you put aside the personal comments and discuss respectfully? Can you do that? It would greatly enhance your credibility on here. Ad hominems never prove anything.