Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Isa 48:16-17
So, who is speaking? We find out in verse 17:

17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.

It is the Lord God who is speaking. The word LORD here is YHWH, so YHWH / God is who is sent. And since we are told that it is the Redeemer, and we know that the Redeemer is Jesus, we know that Jesus is YHWH, and Jesus is God.
NKJV

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The speaker is not the Redeemer. If you'll take the context from the 16, you'll see what it means.

The speaker said "Come near to Me, hear this:", this indicates as an herald. He's calling the recipient of the message to come near Him and hear his message.

The speaker introduce Himself and said " I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me"

Then, the speaker said "This is what the Lord, Your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel want to tell you--"I am the LORD your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go. "

It does makes sense; He was sent to declare the proclamation of the Lord. This is in accordance to Biblical principle written in John 6:38.

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. KJV

The speaker was sent to give the news and not to talk about Himself.

So, it doesn't make the Redeemer the speaker.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Criado
That's an interesting post.
Thanks,
Fred

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Thanks Fred.

Is it about naming the one being sent? The supporting verses for them are: Proverbs 8:22-30;1 ; I Corinthians 1:24

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
I read what you said with interest and thought.
You state the scripture must interpret itself.
Then why do you not allow that?

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Fred, if all you want to do is attack and lie about me, then I see no reason for you to be on the thread. The topic is the trinity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cogs

or about what scripture does not say. this thread is about a single verse which i believe is translated inaccurately. in this verse i only know of 2 persons of god, himself and his spirit.

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Actually, no. I chose this passage ( not a single verse), as a starting point. With others who have denied the doctrine of the trinity, I have often started in Genesis. There are many starting points because the trinity is spoken of throughout the Bible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Criado

The speaker is not the Redeemer. If you'll take the context from the 16, you'll see what it means.

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I believe Him when He says that He is.

Quote:

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The speaker said "Come near to Me, hear this:", this indicates as an herald. He's calling the recipient of the message to come near Him and hear his message.

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Ok.

Quote:

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The speaker introduce Himself and said " I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me"

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Yep.

Quote:

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Then, the speaker said "This is what the Lord, Your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel want to tell you--"I am the LORD your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go. "

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Note that you just altered what the Bible says. It does NOT say "Thisd is what...". It says:

Isa 48:17
17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

INote that you just altered what the Bible says. It does NOT say "Thisd is what...". It says:

Isa 48:17
17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV

---

Not really an alteration. I adopted some wording from the NIV-UK Version. And that's what the context conveyed.

It is very clear that Isaiah 48:17 is not a description for the "messenger" (the one sent).

As you may notice the first line, "Thus says the LORD,your Redeemer" is a more on conversive rather than narrative.

In addition, removing the verses number and writing it as it was originally written,will show continuous statement by the messenger rather than description about Himself.

Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Criado

Not really an alteration. I adopted some wording from the NIV-UK Version. And that's whta the context conveyed.

---

The wording varies even from my NIV. But just the same if you read the wider context, it is still clear who is speaking. He identifies himself also in verse 12:

Isa 48:17
Listen to me, O Jacob,
Israel, whom I have called:
I am he;
I am the first and I am the last.
NIV

So we know that the NKJV translation is accurate. And we know who the first and last is:

Rev 1:17-18
And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me,[fn8] "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.
"I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
NKJV

As far as the trinity, yes, there is more evidence from scripture that god's power and being is dynamic. Since I'm flesh, I have to understand him in a way that makes sense to me. Jesus did say that before abraham was, I am. Jesus did miracles. Jesus was resurrected. Even from these three things, I can see god, his power through jesus, and his power over death. We never see god, and we never see his spirit. For that matter, we have never seen jesus. However, jesus said he would send god's spirit to us. This can be experienced through knowledge and miracles. So god's spirit is what I'm able to know. And scripture is what I'm able to read, and sometimes understand through his spirit in me. Regarding the trinity, god has done and will do whatever his dynamic spirit desires. I await his orders, and read the scripture he has preserved.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cogs

we never see god,

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We never see the father.

Quote:

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And we never see his spirit.

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Not true.

John 1:32-33
32 And John bore witness, saying, "I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him.
NKJV

Quote:

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for that matter, we have never seen jesus.

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Really? What Bible have you been reading. Jesus was seen in both the OT and NT.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

We never see the father.
Not true.

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Have you seen him?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

John 1:32-33
32 And John bore witness, saying, "I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him.
NKJV

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But you didn't see the dove.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Really? What Bible have you been reading. Jesus was seen in both the OT and NT.

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But you haven't seen jesus, have you? My point was since we cannot see god, we have to take what we know of him, to experience him. Just read the rest of my previous post. And by the way, could you not read between the lines and understand what I was saying?

Why do some say that no one has seen God the Father when the bible says that Moses saw Him face to face and Abraham and his wife and others saw him when He dined with them and ate an entire fatted steer and much more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Why do some say that no one has seen God the Father when the bible says that Moses saw Him face to face and Abraham and his wife and others saw him when He dined with them and ate an entire fatted steer and much more.?

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Good question.

Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers.
Jhn 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

I think the point is not that we visualize god, which is based on the physical, but that we spiritually come into contact with his will.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

the wording varies even from my NIV. But just the same if you read the wider context, it is still clear who is speaking. He identifies himself also in verse 12:

Isa 48:17
Listen to me, O Jacob,
Israel, whom I have called:
I am he;
I am the first and I am the last.
NIV

So we know that the NKJV translation is accurate. And we know who the first and last is:

Rev 1:17-18
And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me,[fn8] "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.
"I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
NKJV

---

We have no problem as to who is the "the First and the Last". The question is who said this particular phrase below? Was it the speaker (the one sent)?

Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Criado

We have no problem as to who is the "the First and the Last". The question is who said this particular phrase below? Was it the speaker (the one sent)?

Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;

---

Read the whole context. It is the same person.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Why do some say that no one has seen God the Father when the bible says that Moses saw Him face to face and Abraham and his wife and others saw him when He dined with them and ate an entire fatted steer and much more.?

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Does the Bible say that they saw God the Father? Or does it say that they saw God. Read again, Fred.

I believe it when Jesus says that no one but Him has seen the father.

John 6:46-47
46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
NKJV

Tj3,
That is a good answer.
Excellent even.
Congratulations.
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Read the whole context. It is the same person.

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Do you mean to say the speaker is the one who said this particular phrase? "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Criado

Do you mean to say the speaker is the one who said this particular phrase? "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;"

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That is what the text says, so yes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

That is what the text says, so yes.

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Since you said that the speaker is the one that said the particular phrase "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;" then it follows that He is not the Redeemer.

Here's a parallel verse:

Exodus 7:17 Thus saith the LORD, In this thou shalt know that I am the LORD: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood.

The red colored text is the speakers' words and he is talking about what the Lord said. And the blue text is what the Lord said.

Likewise,

Isaiah 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

The red colored text is the speakers' words and He is talking about what the Lord said and not about Himself.

That makes the speaker not the Redeemer the speaker is talking about.

Crido,
It appears to me that the author is identifying who the Lord is who said the words in blue.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Crido,
It appears to me that the author is identifying who the Lord is who said the words in blue.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

---

Hi Fred,

That's exactly what I mean; making the speaker not the Redeemer. Thank you for making it simpler.

I had coloring and color-identifying mistake lately. It's been edited now. I am very sorry if it confused you. But I am glad you got my point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Criado

Since you said that the speaker is the one that said the particular phrase "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;" then it follows that He is not the Redeemer.

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You logic escapes me.

Quote:

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Likewise,

Isaiah 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

The red colored text is the speakers' words and He is talking about what the Lord said and not about Himself.

That makes the speaker not the Redeemer the speaker is talking about.

---

I never thought that you were suggesting that that the speaker was says "Thus says the lord". That is a description portion of the test written by the person who penned the book of Isaiah to identify who the speaker was. But that changes nothing because having identified the speaker, the same identification given in verse 12, you are left with the speaker being Jesus.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

You logic escapes me.

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I think I should be the one who should tell you this. Read below.

Quote:

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I never thought that you were suggesting that that the speaker was says "Thus says the lord". That is a description portion of the test written by the person who penned the book of Isaiah to identify who the speaker was.

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Now, you're changing declaration. If I am not mistaken, you are the one who confirm that the one who said "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;" is the speaker. I even asked you to clear it to me TWICE and you said it is the speaker who said that phrase. (please refer to post #54 and #58). And now, you are saying it's the person who penned the book of Isaiah? Now, I am clueless about your stand.

Quote:

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But that changes nothing because having identified the speaker, the same identification given in verse 12, you are left with the speaker being Jesus.

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It does change something, that makes the speaker, not the Redeemer.

Of course, I don't expect you to change your mind. Since this is now irreconcilable, I decided switch the issue based on what you previously pointed out, but then, since my time is running out ( I am bound to leave on Sunday, the latest, and don't know when I'll be back again), I just decided to laid out my final statement to give me the opportunity to give my insight regarding this since you already laid your points. But in order for me to do that, I need to ask you several questions in order for me to assess if we are agreeing on different concepts. Will you allow me to ask you several questions for that purpose?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Criado

Now, you're changing declaration. If I am not mistaken, you are the one who confirm that the one who said "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;" is the speaker.

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That is what scripture says - do you disagree?

Quote:

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I even asked you to clear it to me TWICE and you said it is the speaker who said that phrase. (please refer to post #54 and #58). And now, you are saying it's the person who penned the book of Isaiah? Now, I am clueless about your stand.

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Let's not play games here. I did not think that you were suggesting that what is clearly a commentary was being spoken -I thought that you were referring that was the introduction to. So no, I am changing, and I do not think that trying to trip someone up on word games is debating the issue honestly.

Quote:

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It does change something, that makes the speaker, not the Redeemer.

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That line does not make sense. It makes the speaker what?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Criado

I just decided to laid out my final statement to give me the opportunity to give my insight regarding this since you already laid your points.

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That is the best way to debate an issue.

Quote:

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But in order for me to do that, I need to ask you several questions in order for me to assess if we are agreeing on different concepts. Will you allow me to ask you several questions for that purpose?

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Truth does not depend upon my view. I have never found that playing "20 questions" gets us closer to what God is saying in his Word. What I have found is that if the person does not know the context of your questions (i.e. the point that you are leading to), the answer may be made against a different context, which may end up in further disclarity regarding the positions, and thus tends to lead to the same mis-understanding that we had above. If you have points to make, the best way is to make the point and provide your reasons for believing as you do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

That is what scripture says - do you disagree?

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Precisely. That specific phrase is from "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;" is the word of the speaker.

Now, I am very confused with what your stand really is: First, you said that the speaker tells that phrase (#54 and #58)

When I told you the parallelism, you told me: "I never thought that you were suggesting that that the speaker was says "Thus says the lord". That is a description portion of the test written by the person who penned the book of Isaiah to identify who the speaker was."

Now that I said "Now, you're changing declaration. If I am not mistaken, you are the one who confirm that the one who said "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;" is the speaker"

Now you're telling me "That is what scripture says - do you disagree?"

And now I am the one playing games? Sigh.

Quote:

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That line does not make sense. It makes the speaker what?

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--NOT makes the speaker the Redeemer.

Quote:

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BTW, I notice that you keep pusing on this line while ignoring the context. I notice that you won't even acknowledge that verse 12 provide additional validation as to who the speaker is.

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What's verse 12 has something to do with it. Verse 12 is another supporting verse to tell Jesus is the speaker; the one sent. It is not an issue if He is Jesus or not. The issue here is who said the phrase "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;" Is it the speaker or is He not?

First, you said it's the speaker; Second, you said it's the person who penned the book of Isaiah; Now, you said it's speaker again. This is driving me insane.

My question was clear and I don't know why you don't get it while Fred does.

Perhaps, I will not continue to the questions and statement anymore. I fear that after I laid my final statement, I was gone then. I don't want you to think I let you hanging and don't want to be questioned about that post. I also fear you'll give me different answers for a question again. So I guess, it ends here.

Regards,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Criado

Precisely. That specific phrase is from "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;" is the word of the speaker.

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That makes no sense. Like I said before, I cannot comprehend how you can possibly come to such a conclusion. It would defy the context of the chapter and indeed of the chapter and surrounding chapters. I note that you continue to ignore the context, and specifically the fact that there are other passages which identify who the speaker is.

Quote:

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Now, I am very confused with what your stand really is: First, you said that the speaker tells that phrase (#54 and #58)

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I mis-understood what you were saying as I said before - perhaps you did not read my last post. The logic that you are using is so out of line with what the passage says that I could not imagine anyone even making a suggesting as you are now making.

So, no I am not changing anything. Read what I said at the start of this thread and throughout. And this has now been clarified twice with you. This is why I also don't agree to playing "20 questions" with you or others who ask questions for the sake of twisting the answer to be something else. Are you planning to play wordgames and word tricks or do you want a honest discussion?

Quote:

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What's verse 12 has something to do with it.

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Same speaker speaking continuously and he identifies himself in verse 12 and verse 17 (and elsewhere).



BTW, I notice that you keep pushing on this line while ignoring the context. I notice that you won't even acknowledge that verse 12 provide additional validation as to who the speaker is.

Let's look at the wider context that you keep avoiding:

Isa 48:9-11
9 "For My name's sake I will defer My anger,
And for My praise I will restrain it from you,
So that I do not cut you off.
10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it;
For how should My name be profaned?
And I will not give My glory to another.
NKJV

Now I presume that it is clear to you who is speaking. If you understand what "profane" means, you will understand that the opposite of it is "holy". Whose name is "holy"? Who refines us?

Isa 48:12-13
12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
NKJV

I should hope that it abundantly clear from verse 12 who is speaking. I would find it hard to believe that anyone could miss who it is, but if you don't know, we can do a study of who the first and the last is, and who laid the foundations of the earth.

Isa 48:14-15
14 "All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
NKJV

Note here, as in verse 16, the speaker refers to the lord, and yet identifies Himself as God by the authority that He claims. And this is still the one and the same speaker.

Now the passage in question.

Isa 48:16
16 "Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me."
NKJV

Note that it is still the same speaker who identified Himself as God throughout this chapter. Verse 17 is a more convenient way to see who it is, but there is so much more in Chapter 48 which makes His identity undeniable.

And verse 17 makes it abundantly clear who it is in case there are still those who could not see it in the prior verses.

Isa 48:17
17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV

Criado,
Now Tj3 is confusing me also.
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Criado,
Now Tj3 is confusing me also.
Fred

---

Fred, you surprise me. I thought that you believed in the trinity. Maybe you listened to Ronnie too much :p

Tj3,
I do believe in the trinity.
But your last several posts on what you claim that passage says confuses me for it looks like you are going one way then another.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
I do believe in the trinity.
But your last several posts on what you claim that passage says confuses me for it looks like you are going one way then another.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

---

Then you need to read more carefully. I have said nothing different from the start. It was criado who mis-represented me.

Do you believe that the speaker is Jesus as the speaker claims?

Do you believe that it is God the Father and God that Holy Spirit that He says sent Him?

I have said nothing different from the start - check it out.

If you disagree with any of these statements, then I see why we have differences.

Tj3,
I have already told you what I believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
I have already told you what I believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

---

As I told you, Fred. But your last comments have me wondering.

Tj3,
It is Your posts that got me to wondering about you.
So we wonder about each other.
So be it.
LOL
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
It is Your posts that got me to wondering about you.
So we wonder about each other.
So be it.
LOL
Fred

---

Well Fred, as shown earlier in this thread, you make all sorts of accusations against me, so that does not bother me in the slightest. I, on the other hand, am trying to discuss doctrine and God's word.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
It is Your posts that got me to wondering about you.
So we wonder about each other.
So be it.
LOL
Fred

---

Well Fred, as shown earlier in this thread, you make all sorts of false accusations against me and have for years, so that does not bother me in the slightest. I, on the other hand, am trying to discuss doctrine and God's word. So let's see if we can get back on track, shall we?

So once again, let's look at the wider context of this passage:

Isa 48:9-11
9 "For My name's sake I will defer My anger,
And for My praise I will restrain it from you,
So that I do not cut you off.
10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it;
For how should My name be profaned?
And I will not give My glory to another.
NKJV

Now I presume that it is clear to you who is speaking. If you understand what "profane" means, you will understand that the opposite of it is "holy". Whose name is "holy"? Who refines us? Does scripture say that this is anyone but God?

Isa 48:12-13
12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
NKJV

I should hope that it abundantly clear from verse 12 who is speaking. I would find it hard to believe that anyone could miss who it is, but if you don't know, we can do a study of who the first and the last is, and who laid the foundations of the earth.

Isa 48:14-15
14 "All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
NKJV

Note here, as in verse 16, the speaker refers to the Lord, and yet identifies Himself as God by the authority that He claims. And this is still the one and the same speaker.

Now the passage in question.

Isa 48:16
16 "Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me."
NKJV

Note that it is still the same speaker who identified Himself as God throughout this chapter. Verse 17 is a more convenient way to see who it is, but there is so much more in Chapter 48 which makes His identity undeniable.

And verse 17 makes it abundantly clear who it is in case there are still those who could not see it in the prior verses.

Isa 48:17
17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV

Here the speaker says that He is the Redeemer and we know who that is.

Do you agree or not? If not, please provide validation from scripture for your position, rather than personal attacks.

Tj3,
I made no accusations against you.
I asked a question that you never answered.
But that's OK.
I let it go.
I still pray for you.
Peace and kindness, Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
I made no accusations against you.

---

Your memory is getting worse, Fred. You made false accusations even in this thread.

Quote:

---

I asked a question that you never answered.

---

So you claim. Talking about questions that you won't answer, how about an answer to the question that I asked?

So once again, let's look at the wider context of this passage:

Isa 48:9-11
9 "For My name's sake I will defer My anger,
And for My praise I will restrain it from you,
So that I do not cut you off.
10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it;
For how should My name be profaned?
And I will not give My glory to another.
NKJV

Now I presume that it is clear to you who is speaking. If you understand what "profane" means, you will understand that the opposite of it is "holy". Whose name is "holy"? Who refines us? Does scripture say that this is anyone but God?

Isa 48:12-13
12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
NKJV

I should hope that it abundantly clear from verse 12 who is speaking. I would find it hard to believe that anyone could miss who it is, but if you don't know, we can do a study of who the first and the last is, and who laid the foundations of the earth.

Isa 48:14-15
14 "All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
NKJV

Note here, as in verse 16, the speaker refers to the Lord, and yet identifies Himself as God by the authority that He claims. And this is still the one and the same speaker.

Now the passage in question.

Isa 48:16
16 "Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me."
NKJV

Note that it is still the same speaker who identified Himself as God throughout this chapter. Verse 17 is a more convenient way to see who it is, but there is so much more in Chapter 48 which makes His identity undeniable.

And verse 17 makes it abundantly clear who it is in case there are still those who could not see it in the prior verses.

Isa 48:17
17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV

Here the speaker says that He is the Redeemer and we know who that is.

Do you agree or not? If not, please provide validation from scripture for your position, rather than personal attacks.

Tj3,
I do agree.
As I said before I have already told you what I believe.
And that has been several times on several different boards.
Here it is again in a nutshell called the Apostles' Creed.
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord.
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
Born of the Virgin Mary,
Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
Was crucified, died, and was buried;
He descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
He ascended into heaven,
He is seated at the right hand of the Father,
And he will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
The holy catholic church,
The communion of saints,
The forgiveness of sins,
The resurrection of the body,
And the life everlasting.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
I do agree.

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I am glad to see that you have finally clearly stated your view. That helps.