Unknown008,
You ave alty some good advice.
And I join you in wishing alty loads of blessing and happiness along with my hope for peace and kindness for all here.
Fred (arcura)

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Originally Posted by michealb

I know someone who died of hep C and he ate fine until he died almost 23 years after he contracted the disease.

What you describe isn't a miracle but simply events in your life. Coincidences happen that’s why they are called coincidences.

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The boy WASN't eating fine. That was his problem.
You will never see a miracle, because your mind is totally closed.
There is none so blind as he who will not see. (quote someone)

Ref. A post by Galveston1 and MichealB

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Originally Posted by michealb

I know someone who died of hep C and he ate fine until he died almost 23 years after he contracted the disease. What you describe isn't a miracle but simply events in your life. Coincidences happen that’s why they are called coincidences.

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Ok : a miracle than : I know someone who died several years ago. Ever since he has not eaten anymore. Still he is dead and remains dead ! The only negative of his condition is that he does not speak anymore. At the other hand he is cheap on maintenance , and you can rely on his presence : he never missed one single day being dead !

That, my friends is a miracle too. I know he is dead. You can call me a liar if you wish, but I, the man, all that knew him agree that this happened.

Ain't that a miracle?

:rolleyes:

Note : you can post any story with a personal note attached.
But that does not mean that you prove it to be a real miracle.
It is just your story, and we have to take your word for it ....

:rolleyes:

.

Yes, you have to take my word for it. So now I am a liar? Thank You!!

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

Yes, you have to take my word for it. So now I am a liar? Thank You!!!

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What a ridiculous response!!

A clear hint that you realize that your original statement is nothing but hot air.

I did not state that you lied. I did not imply that you lied.

All I stated is that whatever you experienced is no PROOF for a miracle...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Galveston1,
Some people will not believe a miracle under ANY circumstances.
That us those who refuse to believe anything that disproves what they already believe.
So it goes with people of many and varied sorts.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

We say the same thing about you.

"There people who refuse to believe anything that disproves what they already believe."

The problem is we have that pesky science, facts and statistics on our side. Sure miracles happen all the time if you ignore those 3 things.

michealb,
BUT...
I do not ignore those things.
I believe much about science.
I read a lot about science and am very interested in it.
That does not "interfear" with my belief in miracles.
I have seen to many miracles to ignore them.
There are many happenings that are unexplainable some of which are miracles they appear to be far beyond what science can or ever will explain.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

"I have seen to many miracles to ignore them"

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Fred : there is no OSE for "miracles" to exist. What you hold for "miracles" are unexplained observations, either because we simply do not know what, why, or how they happened, or just - for the major part - because we never really looked into what really happened and looked for a scientific explanation.

That there have been observations for which we have not yet a proper natural explanation - for whatever reason - is no reason to declare them as miracle.
Why do so many people have a problem with just admitting that at present we simply don't know the explanation?
And why do they insist providing some "spiritual" cause to it ?

:)

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But Cred... there are things which do exist, but we, up to now, haven't any OSE to support them. So, giving the term miracle to something that is thought to be impossible, according to science, but which has been made possible through God's power, is plainly possible, and accepted by some people.

For example, you have somebody with an incurable disease, and that somebody was cured, not through meds but through prayers, and God's power. For many years, the scientists have looked for a possibility, but never succeeded in finding a concrete reason. How would you call that? Many people would either disbelieve you, or say that the cured person never had the disease.

In any way, the miracle happened, but all sorts of excuses arise to reject it. That's like that, you believe it or not.

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For example, you have somebody with an incurable disease, and that somebody was cured, not through meds but through prayers, and God's power. For many years, the scientists have looked for a possibility, but never succeeded in finding a concrete reason. How would you call that? Many people would either disbelieve you, or say that the cured person never had the disease.

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This one is covered under statistics. Almost every incurable disease doesn't kill everyone that gets it. Thanks to a highly varied immune system given to us by evolution. You don't list the millions of people that pray to be cured but instead you mention the one in million that happens to get better and call it a miracle. People in general are bad at statistics. So this isn't your fault. It's one of the reason why lotteries and casinos are so profitable it's because people don't understand the odds.

In answer to the OP. Some of you would have heard Jesus pronounce woe to you because of your unbelief. Unbelievers get nothing from God, thus cutting themselves off from any possible benefits. It's a lose-lose propisiton.

Again Galveston only if your right. If Zeus is the all mighty your punishment for worshipping a false god might be worse than mine.

Credendovidis ,
I do NOT care if there is no OSE concerning miracles.
I KNOW miracles have take place.
That is good enough for me.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

I do NOT care if there is no OSE concerning miracles. I KNOW miracles have take place. That is good enough for me.

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Dear Fred
And I accept that you really BELIEVE that...
Peace and kindness,
John

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Cred,
Thank you.
Fred

The 10/26/2008 edition of [U]Todays Pentecostal Evangel[U, official publication of the Assemblies of God, USA carried a news story titled "Vanished". It is the testimony of an 11 year old girl that had a brain tumor. Published in the article are before and after MRI scans, showing that after prayer at the church, the tumor completely vanished. The church is located in Whitehouse, Texas, about a 30 minute drive from where I live.

You can find the article on line at Pentecostal Evangel index.

Good story but not well documented and even if we accept the story at face value it still doesn't prove anything. People who are sick sometimes get better it doesn't happen often but it does happen. These types of "miracles" happen to atheists who don't pray as well.

Galveston1,
Thanks for that.
Fred

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Originally Posted by michealb

Good story but not well documented and even if we accept the story at face value it still doesn't prove anything. People who are sick sometimes get better it doesn't happen often but it does happen. These types of "miracles" happen to atheists who don't pray as well.

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You see, even if such 'rare' happenings occur, you still argue that that doesn't prove anything. Anyway, how can you tell that such happenings can even happen in atheists? You know, an atheist has to know that some people believe in God, but they won't. So, perhaps for a moment, they'll believe too, even be healed through the power of God. However after that, they deny it themselves so that nobody, even themselves no more know who healed them.

Peace.

Unknown008
Either accept it or reject it as you have.
I accept it as a good possibility that God was involved.
Fred

Why doesn't god heal all people then or at least all of his followers?

Surely the five year old dying of cancer who has done nothing wrong in their life is just as worthy of being healed as anyone else.

Why has god never healed an amputee?

The guy above just does not get it NO MATTER WHAT!

There are 3 of them, 2 more prevalent than the third but still. They participate in EVERY religious discussion trying to find fault with everything said. In truth, I'd wager nobody on these boards finds them insightful nor welcome for that matter in regards to religious discussion.

Sorry Arcura, I just think it wrong for these three to enter into every discussion whether it is about the existence of God or not.

I realize you might not be familier with the term free speech but I find that very important as well. If you don't like what I have to say you are more than welcome to add me to your ignore list.

You are however right on the part about me not getting it. I don't see how you can attribute random events to a great design without proof or consistancy of occurrence or consistancy of out come it doesn't make sense. And if we were talking about anything else other than god very few would even give these ideas any thought. I'm very interested in why.

Free speech? What is that? Please educate me on that subject as well kind sir.

I don't see how you can call the craetion of the world a random event. You and your proof argument is getting real stale as well. All this talk of proof and visuals to aid us in every aspect of life.

Consider that you have never actually been to the sun to know what it consists of. You haven ever been in outer space to tell us where the boundaries are or what other solar systems even look like. We rely on machines and systems to map space and then interpret the data to shape what it MAY look like, but nobody has actually seen or been near the farthest star in the universe to have proof of what exactly it is.

You also use the word logic and common sense a lot I your posts. Who's logic? Who's sense? Yours? In that fictitious book called the Bible, with all its in accuracies and falacies, the main character even commented on those people whom cannot see, cannot hear. Sounds asifhe pegged that pretty bang on Michael.

No disrespect intended towards you. You choose not to believe, you cannot see, fine. Your way of bringing up the same issues regardless of the questions prevent the questions from ever being addressed.

After re-reading I do believe I was being a bit snippy Michael and for that I do apologize.

It's just that I really do not believe that these debates are being engaged in to learn but rather to bang home one's view. I do believe, with all respect, that an atheist has room to at least consider the information about God. I do not feel that is being done here. We all know that a certain member(s) will only believe when they see, I think everyone is fine with that, so why all the back and forth.

True beleivers, in my opinion, cannot have room for thoughts about there being no God, it makes no sense to us, its not logical in our capacity to think. If you will only believe when you see than you yourself will admit there is nothing more to be said.

In my opinion, you seek to understand and for that I commend you.

First off this particular question seems to be directed specifically at atheists and people of other religions. So I'm pretty spot on topic here. Even in the requirement of proof.

If you have a problem with my comments in another thread do so in that thread. I think you will find I stay pretty on topic in most of the threads only providing a different view point.

As far as to whose logic and whose common sense both of those are subjective. I look at religion as I would anything in my life and use the common sense that most people use in their life in everything but religion.

For example if I told you I had a potion that would heal you but it doesn't work for everyone but is capable of healing everything. Wouldn't you want the results to be above the statically anomalous results before you even spent time or money on such potion? It would seems like common sense to me and I apply that same common sense to things like prayer. That makes sense to me why doesn't it make sense to you?

Edit
Posted this before I read the apology. I appreciate the apology BMI.

For your idea of potion, Michael, I would say that in a desperate attempt, anyone would try to obtain that potion, since you have nothing to lose, whatever the price.

The same is for God, you need faith for that 'potion' to work. If you ignore it, you won't have the opportunity to try it. Here also, what do you have to lose? Friends will reject you because of a belief? Not all, even if you did lose all, you'll obtain much more afterwards, and better, you'll have a friend on whom you can count on anytime; God.

Just think about it. It's just a simple choice. You choose to believe or not.

I hope you do the better one, Peace.

Atheists do believe in a god. He is known as "Random Occurance".

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

Atheists do believe in a god. He is known as "Random Occurance".

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What a rubbish!! Specially as you have been told in the past what an Atheist is, and what he "believes"...

What is Atheism? / What is an Atheist?

ATHEISM

A THEISM

A = No(t) or Without

THEISM = Belief in "God" or "Gods"

ATHEISM = No or Without Belief in "God" or "Gods"

Atheism is NOT disbelief in the existence of a "supreme being or beings".
Most Atheists have NO opinion on the existence of a "supreme being or beings".
Only a few "Strong" Atheists do that. Most "Soft/Weak" Atheists simply ignore the possibility of existence of a "supreme being or beings", as there is no (OSE) proof for that religious claim.

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Agnosticism is about questioning the existence of a supreme being or beings, with the conclusion that nobody will ever know.

The basic tenets of Christianity are the belief that Jesus is the Saviour, and that you have to love and forgive your "neighbors".
The basic tenet of Atheism is the lack of belief in any deity or deities.

So your statement that "Atheists do believe in a god. He is known as "Random Occurance"" is based in your own oversupply of "hot air", and lacks any valid support. Nothing new , I see...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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BMI.
I agree with you.
I have difficulty trying to understand why ANY atheist is participating on ANY religious board.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

We find adults who believe in magic entertaining.

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Originally Posted by arcura

... I have difficulty trying to understand why ANY atheist is participating on ANY religious board.

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Have you ever asked? May be it is a reaction against the intolerance of certain theists on this board, and/or of those theists who insist to pursue, hunt, or haunt every Atheist with their own theist chimeras and/or paranoia , either here or by going from door to door...

Have a nice day, Fred !

:)

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Cred,
That makes no sense at all.
You would now know what the theists on this or any religious board say if you never were there.
So what is the REAL reason you are here?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

cred, That makes no sense at all.

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To you may be it does that, Fred !

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Originally Posted by arcura

So what is the REAL reason you are here?

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Just as you and all others do here, Fred : to state my opinion !
This is after all a discussion board where everyone can participate within the limits of the board rules.
And these rules do not demand any specific (religious) views to participate...

Have a nice day, Fred !

:)

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Fred, may I point out that the religious discussion boards are open to all people of all faiths, not just Christians.

If you don't want to hear the opinions of people that aren't Christian then you should be posting your questions on the Christianity boards, where people like Cred, Michealb, and even me cannot participate as per site rules.

There are plenty of preachers right now that claim miracles of healing through Jesus and they are regularly debunked.

So seeing a miracles performed even by Jesus wouldn't be enough.

The truth is that Jesus would have to convince me using the truth that I know, something about my life that only I know with dead on specifics to convince me of the miracle that he is God. Not generalities, specifics, that he would know my life spread out before him and replay it back to me. I would drop to my knees and surrender to him on the spot if he could specifically describe the event or incident in my life where I asked for God's help.

Again not general mumbo jumbo, but specifics, the people involved, my age, the place I was when I asked for help.

No magician's tricks, no slight of hand, no raising of the dead when I not qualified to determine death in the first place, etc.

This isn't too much to ask of God, since God can do anything. If he wants me, then he knows what to do.

If you read the article that I pointed out you will see that the girl's neurosurgeon is far more openminded than several of you are. Do you think he is deluded? Hmm?

I think he sees what he wants to see, like so many of us do. Deluded, no, just hopeful.

I believe that I am fairly openminded. If I truly saw a miracle then I would have no problem admitting that it's a miracle, after all, that would be proof of God, I'd finally know whether I'm following the right path.

Most "miracles" have other explanations that are more realistic than a true miracle.

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

If you read the article that I pointed out you will see that the girl's neurosurgeon is far more openminded than several of you are. Do you think he is deluded?? Hmm?

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I believe the mind and the body is an untapped miracle capable of healing itself in ways we haven't yet begun to understand. If you believe that it's God direct intervention then that's a pattern of belief that works for you and you are a lucky person to never have to doubt. However, God gave me a brain and an inquisitive and questioning mind. Geez, even the bible warns about falseness and to use your God given ability to descern what is true and what isn't. Based on the life that has been laid out for me, I have posted what it would take, what a miracle would be for me.