Again just because you don't know something doesn't mean god did it. There have been many things in history that man has attributed to god and never have we found that yes indeed god is doing that.
|
Again just because you don't know something doesn't mean god did it. There have been many things in history that man has attributed to god and never have we found that yes indeed god is doing that.
"God is watching us from a distance"
Actually they are waterproof and leathery just like a second skin.
God didn't create us to be little robots but gave us our own minds. No one is forced to sin but just like they say, only the good die young
Well then, I'll live forever. ;)
I don't want to dispute the existence of God, frankly I do believe, but I still question. Will I ever "know" with 100% certainty that He exists? I don't think so. I wish I could be that certain, I'm not.
I believe because of personal experiences, but they could just as easily be attributed to lack of sleep, PMS, too much beer, not enough beer etc.
No proof for God exists, bottom line.
Now, proof of fig leaves, that's a no brainer. ;)
Yes the beer or not to beer decision, much more important.
Michealb, the difference between you and me is that I KNOW God exists, and you Don't Know whether God exists or not. So just because you have not come to the knowledge of God's existence, does not mean he does not exist. God has always been, is now, and always will be whether you know it or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by michealb
I know my brother Tim and I know he exists, you don't know Him and you don't know whether he exists or not. Your not knowing him has no relavance to his existence. If you wanted to know my brother Tim you could seek and find him and come to know him, but as I would imagine you have no interest in that just like you have no interest in knowing God and that is the main reason why don't know God exists.
Sassy, your examples of proof aren't realistic.
If you say you have a brother, then what reason do we have to not believe your word? The possibility that you have a brother is realistic, many people have brothers, many of those brothers are named Tim, we have no reason to question your claim of a brother.
To say that you know God exists, well, that requires different proof. Not everyone believes in God, because there is no proof of His existence, unlike your brother Tim.
If anyone wanted to meet your brother Tim, that would be fairly easy, but God, not really.
(sighs ) :rolleyes:
And this, too, shall pass away
(I think this shall by my new quote for now)
The difference is again that on demand (if true) you can produce evidence for your brother's existence. I also have existing knowledge of other people having brothers. So your claim has some merit right there because I already know it is possible to have a brother. You can not do so with god. Even if you tell me exactly how to look for god. I won't find evidence for his existence.
I can say I know the tooth fairy and the only reason that you don't know the tooth fairy is because you don't have an interest in knowing the tooth fairy. If I can subsitude big foot, aliens, ghosts or the tooth fairy for the word god in your evidence and it makes just as much sense, your evidence is meaningless.
[QUOTE]Its not about just eating "something" , I mentioned very specific things I ate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Yes this is a simple analogy but it can be applied anywhere. I KNOW for a fact that I ate 2eggs bacon etc.. On the 18th of Aug at 10am. I have absolutely no way of proving that but the fact still remains that I know what I ate on that day. So I am simply trying to illustrate that just because I can not prove God to the world, does not mean that I personly do not know he exists. I know He exists, regardless of whether I can prove it or not.
Again :rolleyes:, I am did not say anything about proving God. I am just saying my inability to prove Him to the world does not mean I don't know he exists.Quote:
God is not as easily proven to be fact, not everyone believes in God, because there is no actual proof.
Can you be more specific?Quote:
Originally Posted by michealb
Sassy, I think you're missing the point.
I don't have to believe that you had eggs and bacon that day, it's a logical conclusion that what you claim could be the truth. Eggs exist, so does bacon, and pancakes. Logically, you could have had those food items on that day, therefore I have to reason to question your claim.
I could post pictures that people claim are bigfoot. Do you believe in Bigfoot? There are pictures, people say they've seen him. So, do you believe, after all, there's more proof of Bigfoots existence then there is of God's.
You can "think" that God is fact, but in order for anyone of us to admit that He is indeed fact, would require proof.
And round and round we go. :(
Tastes Great!
Less Filling!
Hakuna Matata. :)
Put your behind in your pants...
Er wait...
Put your past behind you
No worries. ;)
Oops, off topic. Bad Alty, bad, bad, bad.
We now return you to our regular scheduled program.
Sorry. :(
Really? Can't we just change the channel?
Oh OK...
The real issue here is that for many Christians, if they admit that they cannot technically "know" that God exists, they feel that they will influence the validity of their belief and therefore, be viewed as "less" of a Christian.
These are typically the same Christians that use quotes from the Bible to prove His existence...
Or answer intelligent questions with Religious Dogma...
Or go to church every Sunday so the neighborhood doesn't gossip about why they are NOT there...
Or are really only a Christian out of the fear of burning for eternity in Hell rather than for the right reasons.
I once posed a question that no Christians would even attempt to answer:
If the Bible instructed us to worship God and by doing so, we would all burn in Hell for all Eternity... It would go on to explain that this would be the ultimate way to show ones true love for God... a tragic end but for those that still worshiped Him, He would know they worshiped Him for the right reasons... if this were the case, how many Christians would have EVER become Christians?
Would they still claim to KNOW that He exist if these were His conditions?
[QUOTE]Again (sigh) :rolleyes:, I am not trying to prove God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
I could say the same thing about God. What reason do people have to not believe God exists? The possibility that God exists is realistic, many people know Him, many people talk to him everyday, you have no reason to question my claim that I know God.Quote:
If you say you have a brother, then what reason do we have to not believe your word? The possibility that you have a brother is realistic, many people have brothers, many of those brothers are named Tim, we have no reason to question your claim of a brother.
I am just using an analogy if
I do not have to be able to prove God to the rest of the world to Know He exists. That does not make sense. That goes back to my breakfast analogy. I do not have to be able to prove to the world what I had for breakfast on the 18th to KNOW what I ate on that day.Quote:
To say that you know God exists, well, that requires different proof. Not everyone believes in God, because there is no proof of His existence, unlike your brother Tim.
Actually I think meeting God would be easier than trying to track my brother down because at least God will come to you if you sincerely seek Him.Quote:
If anyone wanted to meet your brother Tim, that would be fairly easy, but God, not really
No sassy is taking her parents word for it that that is her brother, whose father is taking her mothers word for it that that is his son, maybe dna could prove it but I don't think dna can prove siblinghood, or even if they took the wrong baby home from the hospital, or adopted him or her and are not telling. So on back to Adam in OUR tale all of which is tediously set out in the Old Testament . Like a chicken is just an eggs way of making another egg. Or if a seed falls to the ground and dies, and is reborn as something greater than it was . Why are plants and even butterflies so much more complicated than us?
I give up, really I do.
Okay Sassy, you have a brother named Tim, you ate eggs and bacon, and to you God is a fact.
To me God is a belief, that's all.
Peace. :)
[QUOTE]And again, this is where you are missing the point. I did not say God was a fact niether did I say I want you to admit that he is indeed fact. All I am saying, again is that I know God exists and I realise there are people out there who don't know He exists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
[QUOTE]This is your subjective opinion and belief unless you have some factual data to prove this is what Christians really believe. I will tell you right now, what you said does not apply to me. I just simply know God exists, I don't know why that is so difficult for people to accept. :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJizzle
No me that's for sure, thank God that is not the case. :DQuote:
If the Bible instructed us to worship God and by doing so, we would all burn in Hell for all Eternity... It would go on to explain that this would be the ultimate way to show ones true love for God... a tragic end but for those that still worshiped Him, He would know they worshiped Him for the right reasons... if this were the case, how many Christians would have EVER become Christians?
Of course I would still say know God exists, if indeed that kind of a god existed. "His conditions" have anything to do with whether He exists.Quote:
Would they still claim to KNOW that He exist if these were His conditions?
Then what did you mean by this statement?Quote:
I did not say God was a fact
Maybe I am missing the point, or it's just because I am taking what you write literally. Should I read between the lines? Would that get us on the same page?Quote:
I know without a doubt that God exists whether you BELIEVE I do or not. That's just a fact, I know God exists.
Actually, I say it is so therefore it is so. It is now the truth until you can prove otherwise. Unfortunately for those this may apply to, there is no way to prove to me what it REALLY inside your heart/mind so what I said will remain truth for the rest of eternity :DQuote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
My point exactly. So by admitting this, you are admitting that you only worship God so that you won't go to Hell...Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
Well you already said you wouldn't be a Christian if that were the case... so do you really think that you would say that you KNOW God exists if you weren't a Christian?Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
Sassy : I stated that the problem here is not in what you believe, or why you believe, or how you believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
The problem is related to what you MEAN here with "to know" (No need for a dictionary quote : just YOUR meaning please).
Unfortunately you - as usual - try to skip the real issue here. You say it is a reality that "God" exists.
So let me ask you specifically to qualify the following : where you state in your topic starter :
---> What does that mean for each of the following 5 statements :Quote:
If I say I know God exists...
1 - "You believe that "You believe that " exists".
2 - "Your personal perception is that " exists" exists".
3 - "God's existence is only a personal reality to you"Your personal perception is that "The entity " exists" (with qualities as per the Biblical claim) exists".
4 - "God's existence (and powers) is a fact".
Please reply with a clear response, and explain WHY that is so for each of the 5 options.
:rolleyes:
.
.
I was really beginning to wonder where Credendovis was, since this post is all about him. Of course there's the awful possibility we have to consider, that he might have something better to do than listen to us...
There are better things than AMHD? Egad! ;)
Sassy, I would also like to hear your response to Cred's question, maybe that will clear up a few misunderstandings. :)
What a silly person you must be to post so much foolishness...Quote:
Originally Posted by wildandblue
To start : may be you should start listening to me and others first...
And yes, I had something better to do than listen to you and your theistic peers...
But how terrible that you had to wait 1 or 2 days for my reaction after the one in post #4.
How did you survive all that long waiting?
Of course I was not aware that prior to a visit to my children and grandchildren in England I had to notify you personally. My absence on-line here seems to have caused so much of a traumatic experience to you that you have my full sympathy, and I quickly add a "mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa" to make it up to you...
Please take careful note of the following expected days off-line here :
During the last week of November 2008 I will be on a short business trip to the Far East = off-line.
Early December 2008 I will be visiting again my children and grandchildren in England = off-line.
Over Christmas 2008 I will be visiting my daughter in Africa = off-line.
February-March 2009 I will be on a ski holiday in Switzerland = off-line.
Spring 2009 I will most probably sailing again in my yacht on the Atlantic Ocean and - possibly - in the Mediterranean Sea. But on-board I - fortunately for you - have a satellite link, so that I can remain on-line.
For summer 2009 no firm plans are presently available - my sincere apologies for that inconveniance are hereby offered. Most probably it will be a visit to Australia or Thailand.
I just give you all that information already so that you can prepare yourself for all these long absences. I hate to think that you - in your confusion caused by these absences - will step off a high building, jump in front of a train, or electrocute yourself at the Christmas tree, just because all these unannounced and long absences drive you into complete insanity. Subject of course that you have not arrived at that result already, which - from your post here - is another rather viable possibility...
:D:rolleyes::D:rolleyes::D
.
.
[QUOTE]Not unless you can prove it to be true. Can you prove I don't know God?Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJizzle
I worship God because He created me, and HE is my Father and I love him.Quote:
My point exactly. So by admitting this, you are admitting that you only worship God so that you won't go to Hell...
Yes! Duh.. lol I don't want to go to Hell, but that is just a benefit that is extended to me for Loving and accepting my Creator.
Quote:
Well you already said you wouldn't be a Christian if that were the case... so do you really think that you would say that you KNOW God exists if you weren't a Christian?
Yes of course! Why not?. lol Knowing God has nothing to do with what religious affilitiation one identifies with. The two are mutually exlusive. I knew God before I professed to be "Christian". I do not consider myself religious at all. I just have a personal relationship with God. I only call myself a "Christian" because that is the term used by the world to describe followers of Christ. And I am follower of Christ.
So the bottom line is I know God, and that has absolutely nothing to do with my "religious affiliation". Being a Christian is not a prerequisite to knowing God, believe me. I was far from being a Christian when I found God. :o
[QUOTE]Cred. I know God exists. You don't know whether he exists or not. That all you need to know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
So let me ask you specifically to qualify the following : where you state in your topic starter :
---> What does that mean for each of the following 5 statements :
1 - "You believe that "God" exists".
I don't believe God exists, I know God exists.
2 - "Your personal perception is that "God" exists".
I have knowledge of God's Existence. You don't..
3 - "God's existence is only a personal reality to you".
God's existence is a reality to me and many billions of other people who share the same knowledge of Him.
4 - "The entity "God" (with qualities as per the Biblical claim) exists".
I know God exists.
5 - "God's existence (and powers) is a fact".
I know God exists, that is the Fact.
Please reply with a clear response, and explain WHY that is so for each of the 5 options.
Hope that helps! ;)
Now call me cynical, but I think it is naïve for believers and non believers of God to think they can ever reach an agreement. Especially when both are so adamant. Nobody has 100% solid proof in God-if they did EVERBODY would believe. That's the key word-believe. You can believe and have faith but KNOWING something requires KNOWLEDGE and that requires FACT. "God exists" is not a fact. It is an opinion and will continue to be until his existence is proved/disproved.
This is coming from a christian.
No, by your standards, I don't have to prove it to be true.. it is up to YOU to prove it to be FALSE... otherwise, it is true. This is completely based on your standards... not mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
If God exists because others can't prove that he doesn't, then what I said is true unless you can prove that it isn't. See how that works?
BUT... if it were a choice between NOT worshiping God and NOT going to Hell... OR... WORSHIPING God and HAVING to go to Hell... you said you would choose to NOT go to Hell... meaning that you would no longer worship God. That's just what you said..Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
I find discussion with you somewhat tiresome since you don't seem to pay attention or actually read what others are writing.
Yes, of course this would all make sense if you hadn't already said otherwise.. of course, you did so without seeming to know it... which just goes back to what I said above about you not paying attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
It reminds me of a scene from the movie Zoolander. Ben Stillers character, Zoolander, asks an ex-hand model "But why male models" in an attempt to find out why the bad guys choose male models to brainwash. The ex-hand model replies with an explanation about how male models aren't the sharpest tools in the shed. After the explanation, Zoolander nods his head in agreement and says "Oh.... ....but why male models?"
The ex-hand model says, "Are you serious? You just asked me that."
:D
And a competent Christian!Quote:
Originally Posted by Boristheblade
**applauds**
A 17 year old one too lol, thank you :)
Thanks Sassy : with that reply you showed us all five times that all you do is BELIEVE that "God" exists !Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
.
.
Sassy, you believe that you know, you don't know and your reasoning isn't good enough to convince anyone of your knowledge of God.
If you know then you can prove, otherwise it's just belief.
Cred, you're rubbing off on me. ;)
That may be. Fortunately I note that your signature states "Warning, major flirt, approach with caution".Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
... hhmmmm... Some thoughts are better not posted...
:D :D :D :D :D :D
.
It's just a heads up, a warning, sadly very true as well. ;)
[QUOTE]*sigh* Again I did not say "God exists" I said "i know God exists" there is a huge difference between those two statements but it seems you are getting too hung up on the former, which is far from what I am say.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJizzle
Quote:
BUT... if it were a choice between NOT worshiping God and NOT going to Hell... OR... WORSHIPING God and HAVING to go to Hell... you said you would choose to NOT go to Hell... meaning that you would no longer worship God. That's just what you said..
Going to Hell or Not going to hell, worshiping or Not worshiping God, none of this has any relevance to my knowledge of God so I am not sure what you are trying to get here. What has that got to do with my knowledge of God? Help me understand.
Just because I do not blindly agree with people's subjective opinions does not mean I am not reading what they said. I just don't agree..Quote:
I find discussion with you somewhat tiresome since you don't seem to pay attention or actually read what others are writing.
Again, help me understand, what has being a Christian, going or not going to Hell, worshiping or not worshiping God, have to do with Knowing God?Quote:
Yes, of course this would all make sense if you hadn't already said otherwise.. of course, you did so without seeming to know it... which just goes back to what I said above about you not paying attention.
That is like saying to someone "you only say you "know" Goerge Bush because you are a republican".. . which make no sense. Because knowing Goerge Bush is not dependent what so ever on one's political affiliation. In the same way knowing God is not dependent in anyway on one's relgious affiliation.
:DQuote:
It reminds me of a scene from the movie Zoolander. Ben Stillers character, Zoolander, asks an ex-hand model "But why male models" in an attempt to find out why the bad guys choose male models to brainwash. The ex-hand model replies with an explanation about how male models aren't the sharpest tools in the shed. After the explanation, Zoolander nods his head in agreement and says "Oh.... ....but why male models?"
The ex-hand model says, "Are you serious? You just asked me that."
Sassy, when you say that you know God exists then you are indeed saying that God exists. There is no difference between those two statements.Quote:
*sigh* Again I did not say "God exists" I said "i know God exists" there is a huge difference between those two statements but it seems you are getting too hung up on the former, which is far from what I am say.
If there is a difference then please explain, obviously the rest of us are having a problem understanding what it is you are trying to convey.
Okay, that is just your BELIEF on the matter. And I respect that. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:37 AM. |