Sorry folks but I must agree with Galveston1.
Things prophesied (predicted) many years before they happen is Supernatural to my way of thinking.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
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Sorry folks but I must agree with Galveston1.
Things prophesied (predicted) many years before they happen is Supernatural to my way of thinking.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Of course you do arcura, you base your beliefs on the bible, to believe it isn't factual would be to admit that God doesn't exist. I understand that.
Sorry, I believe in God, but I still have to say that there are many other explanations about these "predictions" in the bible.
I agree if I could predict what was going to happen before it happened every time with great detail that would be supernatural but that's not what the bible does so its not.
michealb,
I disagree.
The bible does predict certain events with amazing detail in many cases such as the crucifixion of Jesus many, many years before it happened.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Y'all just haven't read the scriptures I gave you. You dismiss it without knowing what you are talking about. I think that is really narrow minded. I expect more from intellectuals!
It doesn't matter what the scripture says because even if it gets every detail right if you can't prove beyond a doubt of when it was written it doesn't matter. The other problem is you need all of the writing from one particular author to prove that the author didn't write a huge amount of material and bound to get one thing correct. The other problem with predicting the coming of Jesus in particular is there are hundreds of stories that tell the same tale as Jesus with a minor differences(Its the standard hero story of the ancient world). Then of course there is the question if Jesus was even a real person anyone can write a follow up story if they know the original. Until the supernatural is proven to exist, if there is a plausible natural solution reason insists you use it. If you do anything else you might as well make up your own fantasy world exactly to your liking, instead of using someone else's.
[QUOTE]Ehem... lol your buddy Eratosthenes is from 276 BC - 194. We are talking 4000 years ago.. so are you saying Job from the Bible consulted with this guy? Your arguments are so weak.Quote:
Originally Posted by michealb
Again, you are just displaying ignorance of the subject matter. I think you need to do a little more scriture reading and studying before you make continue to make invalid, hot air points. First of all if you read the entire passage you will see that God compares the number of stars to the number of grains of sand there are in the ocean therefore using figure of speech God was basically telling abraham that there are billion or even trillions of stars that are "beyond numbering". So again, you desperate effort to discredit the scientific insight the Bible has has, is failing dismally.Quote:
He didn't the bible reference only said "the stars are beyond numbering" Which just means there are a lot of them and the author didn't bother to count. You are assigning the number not the author which if you can assign a number they are not beyond counting.
In case you didn't know the "great deep" is synonymous with the ocean. So he was not talking about spring on land. Again, an invalid rebutal.Quote:
He didn't again you are assigning more knowledge to the author than what is written. He said "all the fountains of the great deep." Springs on land were a very important part of life back then, people knew that water welled up from underground it was easy to see. So it's not really a stretch for the author who knew that the source of water on land came from fountains it wouldn't really be a strech for them to be under the sea as well.
Right... we lost such an important piece of information. Do you have any OSE to prove this knowledge was "lost"Quote:
Because the knowledge had been lost. Did you miss that part about me saying that much of what ancient people knew has been lost to the ages. You can also get credit for discovering something if you find out how it happens, even if everyone already knows it happens.
Right... who needs a telescope, apparently according to you we can look into space with our "eyes" and some how know there are billion of stars and galaxies out there. :oQuote:
They used their eyes, ears, noses, and hands. I think you would be surprised just how much science can be done with the equipment we are born with.
Your reaching and lacking in reading comprehension.
Again Eratosthenes is an example of how important knowledge has been lost. Many many other ancient cultures knew the earth was round by observation alone. It's interesting though that when the bible says the earth is round it is a prove of divine inspriation but when it says it's flat it's a metaphore. Wish I could use that when I was wrong.Quote:
ehem... lol your buddy Eratosthenes is from 276 BC - 194. We are talking 4000 years ago.. so are you saying Job from the Bible consulted with this guy?
Again your not looking at this as an ancient man. First more stars could be seen by ancient man than we can see today. Light pollution sucks. Second there probably were more than the ancient author could count the least you could say that it would be a very daunting task to even try. Plus the stars move which makes it even harder. It is much more likely that the author was using metaphor since indeed even if you try only count the ones that he could see the task would be nearly impossilbe to get an acurate count there for they would not be able to be numbered.Quote:
First of all if you read the entire passage you will see that God compares the number of stars to the number of grains of sand there are in the ocean therefore using figure of speech God was basically telling abraham that there are billion or even trillions of stars that are "beyond numbering". So again, you desperate effort to discredit the scientific insight the Bible has has, is failing dismally.
Poor reading comprehension I said since man knew springs cause lakes on land it would not be a strech for someone to guess that there are more or larger springs under the ocean being the source of the ocean. Being incorrect about the source of the ocean in this passage but being correct that there are springs under the ocean. Again a plausible rebutal.Quote:
In case you didn't know the "great deep" is synonymous with the ocean. So he was not talking about spring on land. Again, an invalid rebutal.
Why did we loose the important information of how to build pyriamids or did god build the pyriamids too? As for OSE sure take an ancient history class. Your in school go talk to the professor that teaches the course in your school. I sure he/she will be able to tell you much more than I can. Do a Google search and you will find tons of information.Quote:
right... we lost such an important piece of information. Do you have any OSE to prove this knowledge was "lost"
Correct me if I'm wrong but no where does the bible mention other Galaxies. We however can look into space and see a very large number of stars. Do me a favor go to a deserted mountain top and try and count the stars. Then tell me it's a far stretch to say that there are more stars than grains of sand.Quote:
Right... who needs a telescope, apparently according to you we can look into space with our "eyes" and some how know there are billion of stars and galaxies out there.
I MUST agree with Sassyt.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Of course you must, because the bible tells you so.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
The Bible is our guid line to heaven. The bible was not wrote so we can figure out what's to come or what is hidden in the codes.. There is no codes . If God wanted us to know when he was coming back he wouldn't have said he was coming like a thief in the night, not even the angels in heaven know when Jesus is coming.
Altenweg,
Correction.
The bible does not tell me that I MUST believe what is written in it.
But because I have had so many personal experiences with God Himself and what the bibles has taught me about Him that I do believe that the bible does contain His word.
I emphasize that it is due to PERSONAL experiences through answered prayers and the fact that I believe God saved my life in the Korean war.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred, I too have had experiences, personal experiences with God. Enough experiences that I still believe regardless of 10 years of terribel treatment in Catholic school. Ten years of the wonderful Catholics belittling me, ostrasizing me, telling me I'm a bastard because my parents, although legally married, weren't married in the Catholic church. Ten years of sitting on the pew while the rest of my classmates went up to receive communion, a wafer for goodness sake, a simple store bought wafer. I couldn't have that wafer and be "blessed" because to them I was not a child of God. Ten years of bible study, I'm surprised I was allowed to tarnish their book by reading it, after all, I'm not Catholic. Ten years of my friends parents calling my house and telling my wonderful Mom and Dad that in their eyes I was being neglected because they did not baptize me as Catholic. Ten years of being told I was going to hell because I didn't go to their church. Ten years Fred, ten long years.
After all of that, most people would have walked out of that institution refusing to believe in God, not me. I have found God, but not in a book and not in Church. You see, I don't need a book to believe in God, nor do I need Church. God is in my heart and soul.
Peace and kindness to you too Fred, and I do mean that. I know that your faith is important to you, just because we don't agree doesn't mean that I don't respect what you have to say and the choices you've made. To each their own. :)
Alty
Altenweg,
You were wrongly treated. Terribly so!
Very much so.
It seems that THOSE Catholics were not taught about what Christian love is all about as Jesus taught by both word and example.
This Catholic would NEVER treat you that way.
You are a child of God as am I so you are my sister in that regard.
I have never told anyone they were going to hell.
The bible I believe in tells us all that God id the ONLY judge of who goes where.
It seems that there was very poor bible instruction at the school you went to.
Peace, Kindness, and love,
Fred
Fred,
Thank you for those kind words, they mean a lot to me.
I realize that not every Catholic is like the people I went to school with,
And really, I have nothing against anyone's chosen religion, be it Catholic,
Lutheran, Mormon, whatever.
I know what's in my heart and soul, and I live my life trying to be the best person
I can be. I do pray at home, and I do accept God into my life. I just won't ever
Step foot in a Church again, nor will I accept the bible as the word of God. God
Is a part of who I am, and I am thankful for that.
Oops, we've strayed off topic, sorry SassyT, I apologize.
Peace Fred. :)
Altenweg.
Off topic it may be but I think it is imortant that I an others know how you and others have been treated by some un-Christ-like Christians.
Thanks for sharing.
:) Peace and kindness,:)
Fred
Actually they were being Christians. The bible is full of references about torturing and killing other tribes because they don't believe or aren't "god's children" or had sinned.
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17
Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8
Christians are “of God;” everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19
Everyone will have to worship Jesus -- whether they want to or not. Philippians 2:10
Yes, Michealb, everyone will bow before Jesus and admit that He is Lord. Even you. Doesn't that just chap you? Now, me, I don't mind. I already do that.
Come on over to this side, I guarantee you won't be disappointed!
So much for free will.
As far as not being disappointed my life has greatly improved since I stopped wasting time praying for things and instead spent my time getting those things myself. It's almost amazing what you can accomplish in 5 to 10 minutes a day spent doing rather than praying. I recommend you try it sometime I guarantee your life will improve.
This is my experience as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by michealb
Where's your source? Do you believe without OE? This is just your BELIEF!Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
Where's your proof? This is just your BELIEF!!Quote:
could not let that source of knowledge in the Library go, and burned it down too.
Till the 17' century that burning of goods and people kept a general trademark of "christianity". And till deep in the 18' century "christianity" tried to keep the cork on the scientific bottle. Fortunately they failed.
Where's your support? This is just your BELIEF!!Quote:
There is loads of support. Hundreds. I just took Wiki as that turned up as first link. Anyway : still better than your source : a book, poorly copied and translated, written by paysants, selected a couple of hundred years later by involved believers themselves (what validity provides that ?), and without any evidence that there ever was any inspiration.
:D :rolleyes: :p :) ;) :D
Sincerely,
De Maria
You're an angry Christian aren't you Galveston? It just irks you to no end that you can't prove God through the bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
You remind me a lot of the people I went to school with. Very "My way or the highway" mind set.
Why can't we just accept people for who and what they are? Is that really so hard? Do we really have to belittle, is it that important to prove ourselves right?
I guess so, because now I'm doing it too, but not to prove I'm right. :(
De Maria,
Cred continues to prove that he also has beliefs.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
You are wrong about the angry part. I state things forcefully in hopes of stimulating some thought processes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
And what makes you think that I haven't thought about what you've said, or studied the bible and church? Believe me, I have.
Galveston, in the end, isn't it more important that you are a good person then a God fearing person? I think so.
I've said it before, not everyone can be right about God, or religion, someone has to be wrong. There are so many different beliefs, and everyone believes that they are right in what they choose. There are so many books that claim to be the only way to God, which book is right, are any of them?
In the end, believe in God, don't believe, be Catholic, Muslim, Lutheran, Mormon, whatever, but just do your best to be a good person, live a good life, because that's all that matters in the end. If the Aethists are right and there is no God, no heaven, then yes, I will be disappointed, but if I'm right and all good people will go to heaven, even the Aethists, well, that's the heaven I want to go to.
I believe in God, but I don't believe we will be punished if we don't follow a certain book or certain religion. After all, he didn't exactly make it easy to decide which way is right. ;)
Altenweg your missing the point of religion. Not being a good person is forgivable however not believing in their religion is not.
I guess I am missing the point, probably because I don't believe in organized religion. If not being a person is forgivable, then does it matter if you believe in God or not? I guess it does if you believe in the bible and church. I am a Deist, so my beliefs are very different then others that believe in God. I don't follow the bible, nor do I go to church. I don't belong to a specific "religion" although I do have a specific faith, unlike anyone I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by michealb
Not everything I believe can be lumped into a neat word like Deism, it's the closest word to describe what I believe. I believe in a kind, caring, forgiving God, and if we are all "God's children" then we will all go to heaven, because no parent would turn their back on their child just because he went down the "wrong path".
We really have strayed off the topic folks, and I apologize again to SassyT.
I think we should get back on topic. :)
Peace
Well, where we have gone in this thread is a natural progression. Sassy makes a point, those who don't believe the Bible begin to say that it is no evidence at all, and here we are.
Some do not understand the Christian mind-set. It is strongly missionary. I'll try to explain.
I am on a highway at night, and I have information that I accept as reliable that a bridge over a gorge is out, and it is just over the hill. Cars are approaching at high speed. What are my options? I can either try to flag down the drivers and warn them of the missing bridge, or I can let them speed by and die. Now if this were literal, and I did nothing, I would be guilty of at least criminal neglect, and could be prosecuted if proven. I do not want to have to answer to my God for deliberately letting people be eternally lost. I say what I say, not because I hate, but because I have a genuine concern for you. You may not agree with this, but you shouldn't judge me as a hater.
The problem is that while sassy may well be trying to tell us that the bridge is down, she's actually saying that the bridge is down because a giant snake came up from the depths and ate it. I therefore associate the fact that I know there are no such things as giant snakes, and even if there were they would not come out from hiding just to eat a bridge, with the actual statement of the bridge, and assume you to be untruthful about that as well. If she is performing missionary work, then she's doing it very poorly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
Galveston, I understand very well the mission that Christians have, but let me try to explain my way.
If the bridge is out and I know I can make it over, then what right do you have to tell me I'm wrong? Perhaps I'll take another path that you don't know about, that you have no idea exists, perhaps I'm just as informed as you, but choose to follow another road.
If someone wishes to be told about the Christian way, then by all means, preach, educate, and convert. But, if someone is quite happy with their way, even if it isn't the Christian way, then what right do you have to force your beliefs on them?
I'm not lost, not at all, I've found God, just in a different way than you've chosen, I've followed a different path.
But when you flag the person down and tell them the bridge is out when you really have no clue whether the bridge is out or not. Your pretty much just wasting everyone's time. Which isn't a crime but should be.
Michael, I'd never flag you down, that I can promise. As a Deist I have no mission to convert anyone to my way of thinking, I just want the right to think it, that's all. I'm tired of people telling me my belief isn't as strong because I'm not a Christian.
I respect everyone's right to believe what they wish, be it God, science, or the spaghetti monster. ;)
There is ample proof for that, to be found in all libraries. Non-claiming historical reports of what happened politically and practically. With OSE - what does your OE means?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
The validity of the Bible is a different matter.
It is based on a non-visible entity that sits on a cloud outside (!! ) our universe, that has perverted interests in every human beings sexual habits.
It is based on an entity that can create an entire universe in 6 days, but is unable to write, copy, translate, produce, nor distribute the operation manual for humanity itself, reason for that manual to be overloaded with faults, inconsistences, and contradictions.
But you have no problems believing in - and accepting - such an entity's existence.
However, that "christians" were ordered to destroy pagan temples and added the Library to that list of destruction has to be proven with OSE...
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
===
As you meant RELIGIOUS BELIEF : The more you post nonsense like that, the more I will have to tick you on your fingers, dear Fred !Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
:)
To all here about this.
This is my learned opinion.
I believe that all paths do NOT lead to God.
Some actually lead away from God.
I also believe the bible and that the bible encourages followers to tell others about the Biblical God and the way to Him and His salvation.
Christians who do that are doing what they believe should be done.
That is not much different than this...
If I were a carpenter and saw someone building chair improperly, I would be a good person by helping that person build the chair correctly.
It is not a crime to attempt to help others.
However, it is not ethical to try to shove something down another's throat who does not want it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Cred must have his comments in his computer so he can click them to post. Repetitive. I again challenge him to present a contridiction in scripture of any significance. There are differences in numbers stated is some places, but it doesn't change the history or message presented. I like to shoot down hot air balloons.
Your comment about the universe being created in 6 days: You don't believe it and neither do I. NOWHERE does the Bible make any such claim.
The Bible NOWHERE says that God sits on a cloud or outside the universe.
God's interest in our sex lives is that we may live happy, disease free lives that provide the proper environment for our children to grow up in.
Why not just get rid of the diseases wouldn't that be easier? The very least he could do would be to make it so that if you follow the bible rules you don't get any diseases. Yet I openly mock gods existence and I'm as healthy as can be. How could any god that loves his followers allow me who openly mocks the possibility of his existence live yet kills an innocent child.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
- Epicurus Quotes
Why does he allow this? "because of man's rebellion against God's Word"
Sin entered the world through man. Not through god... Good job man. We cursed ourselves to suffering. We cursed ourselves to death. We cursed ourselves to disease. We, We, We, We, We,. From that point on every person on this planet was a sinner.
There is no such thing as innocent suffering. In the eyes of god we are all sinners and because of this fact, we are wretched. Now, good thing god sent his son to die on the cross (suffering terribly) to die for us who are evil. In his mercy, with grace, and faith he is willing to forgive us our sins and grant us eternal life.
That is what you BELIEVE...Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoked
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
So let me get this straight you believe that a child who has done nothing wrong in it's life deserves to suffer because you feel he is wretched because of something you think someone 6 thousand years did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoked
His question was "why does god allow"... you believe something different why don't you answer his question with what you believe instead of some nonsense that has no baring on the topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
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