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  • Jul 21, 2008, 03:03 PM
    sassyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    In "other religion" there was a question on Noah's Ark.
    In the end the topic changed into a debate on the size of the Ark versus the carrying capacity versus the number of all animals and plants that would have to be in the ark to survive the flood.

    So where is the calculation that the Ark was big enough to provide sufficient space for all in it for such a long time?
    Or can we accept the Biblical Noah's Ark story as just a copycat repeat of the Gilgamesh story?

    The Noah's ark Biblical account is very feasible. You Just make claims based on your ignorance but if you do some research first you would find that many of today’s species of animals descended from about 8,000 genera "kinds" of animals. Thus, if the scientific genus is taken to be equal to the biblical "kind" then this would result in about 8,000 genera, and therefore, nearly 16,000 animals on the ark (this accounts for both live animals and extinct animals known from fossils)

    Noah would not have needed to take sea creaatures because they would not necessarily be threatened with extinction by a flood. However, turbulent water would cause massive carnage, as seen in the fossil record, and many oceanic species probably would have become extinct because of the Flood. Noah would not have needed to take plants either — many could have survived as seeds, and others could have survived on floating mats of vegetation. Many insects and other invertibrats were small enough to have survived on these mats as well. The ark had to transport only land animals, so the mammals, birds, and reptiles were essentially all that would have needed accommodations.

    There would have been ample space available on the ark to store these animals. According to the biblical record, the ark measured about 450x75x45 feet, so its volume was about 1.5 million cubic feet. To put this in perspective, this is the equivalent volume of about 522 standard American railroad stock cars, each of which can hold about 240 sheep. So the ark could have carried over 125,000 fully-grown sheep. The animals, however, did not have to be fully grown. The largest animals could have been represented by "teenage" or even younger animals. The average size of the animals on the ark could accually have been that of a small rat, while only about 11 percent may have been much larger than a sheep.

    :)
  • Jul 21, 2008, 03:44 PM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sassyT
    You Just make claims based on your ignorance but if you do some research first you would find that many of today’s species of animals descended from about 8,000 genera "kinds" of animals.

    Which research shows that there only 8,000 species at that moment in time? And which research shows that they account for the millions of species today?
  • Jul 22, 2008, 01:34 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sassyT
    The Noah's ark Biblical account is very feasable.

    No it is not. The numbers of animals are not properly explained. All water creatures living in potable water would have perished in days, once the waters of see and lakes would mix, inevitable when the earth would be covered by water all over. All non-sea birds would have perished except perhaps a very few exceptions. All insects would have perished. Almost all amphibians would have perished in sea water. Etc. etc. etc.
    But even more interesting to explain : how did all animals got to and on the Ark, and back again afterwards?
    How did Noah collect all animals from N and S America, Australia, and all islands worldwide (where new - specially adapted animals evolved). Collecting all these animal species would have taken several life times...

    Where is your claim of only "8000 genera" coming from, and how does that explain all creatures living today, WITHOUT EVOLUTION ? Why not one step further, and accept evolution as "THE" cause in the first place ?

    On what were all these animals living after the flood? Specially the hunter animals. If there were only 2 of each species, how many species died out in days after being released, either by hunter animals or by lack of (meat) food?

    The Noah's ark Biblical account was NOT feasible at all !

    Besides that : how can Noah's story be almost exact copy of the Gilgamesh Epic that is dated thousands of years earlier?

    :rolleyes:

    ·
  • Jul 22, 2008, 02:05 AM
    Capuchin
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma
    Which research shows that there only 8,000 species at that moment in time? And which research shows that they account for the millions of species today?

    Don't forget that 99% of species that have ever existed are extinct. Maybe the flood did it.. :rolleyes:
  • Jul 22, 2008, 06:09 AM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    Besides that : how can Noah's story be almost exact copy of the Gilgamesh Epic that is dated thousands of years earlier?

    This is why it is futile to try to answer all your questions. This claim already shown to be in error and yet you repeat it again. If you would acknowledge and perhaps interact on the answers given, it may be worthwhile spending more time on addressing the points that you raise, but if you choose to ignore what it said, then why do it? It appears tghat you will believe what you want to believe no matter what.
  • Jul 22, 2008, 08:03 AM
    sassyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3
    This is why it is futile to try to answer all your questions. This claim already shown to be in error and yet you repeat it again. If you would acknowledge and perhaps interact on the answers given, it may be worthwhile spending more time on addressing the points that you raise, but if you choose to ignore what it said, then why do it? It appears tghat you will believe what you want to believe no matter what.

    Futile indeed. You are right Tj3, telling Credo anything is like talking to a plastic bowl. He is so set in his beliefs that he is unwilling to acknowledge anything that is contrary to his secular huministic faith. :rolleyes:
  • Jul 22, 2008, 08:28 AM
    sassyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis

    Where is your claim of only "8000 genera" coming from, and how does that explain all creatures living today, WITHOUT EVOLUTION ? Why not one step further, and accept evolution as "THE" cause in the first place ?

    ·

    This just goes to show how you don't pay attention to anything and are just engrossed and blinded by your zealous beliefs.
    If you were paying attention you would have known that I do not deny evolution, however I do not believe in MACRO evolution because there is no evidence for that.

    According to the Genesis model of origins, God created not each individual species, but the wider genus (around 8000 genera) to which each species belongs.
    Genesis thus indicates that God created each genus, not each individual species. Within each genus He provided a blueprint for diversity, enabling each genus to split, over time, into numerous species i.e MICRO evolution. So out of the 8000 or so genera, new species within each genus are being created by micro evolution. So a wolf, fox, dog, coyote share a common canine anscestor.. But Darwinists like yourself make the leap of faith that these animals also share a common ancestor with palm trees, gold fish, dolphins etc.

    So again, Noah's Arch is very feasible
  • Jul 22, 2008, 08:43 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sassyT
    According to the Genesis model of origins, God created not each individual species, but the wider genus (around 8000 genera) to which each species belongs.
    Genesis thus indicates that God created each genus, not each individual species. Within each genus He provided a blueprint for diversity, enabling each genus to split, over time, into numerous species

    Where is this mentioned in the bible?
  • Jul 22, 2008, 09:12 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3
    It appears tghat you will believe what you want to believe no matter what.

    This could have been written to you. "Scholars say" just isn't good enough. Perhaps if you would admit that it is your literal interpretation of the Flood story that is behind your arguments..
  • Jul 22, 2008, 11:04 AM
    lobrobster
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sassyT
    If you were paying attention you would have known that i do not deny evolution, however i do not believe in MACRO evolution because there is no evidence for that.

    So why don't you just come out and say it? You accept evolution up until the point that it interferes with your precious religious beliefs. Then you're willing to suspended logic as necessary.

    Why would you accept micro and not macro evolution? What reason do you have to think that it stops at some point before becoming macro? So it's OK to accept 1+1=2, 2+1=3, 3+1=4, but we must not assume 4+1=5, because our religious book tells us differently?
  • Jul 22, 2008, 11:44 AM
    shatteredsoul
    WELL, logically there are many things about religion that do not add up. I personally do not share the same religious beliefs, but rather a spiritual awareness of a connection between everything that is alive and the energy within it. IT isn't something I can justify with numbers or an equation, but it is what makes sense to me.
    I think the reason you strike such a chord is because many people feel safe with their religious upbringing, beliefs and rules that come from the bible and other tenants of each faith.
    WHAT I am trying to say, is that it scares people to have them think differently than what they know and feel comfortable with. IT makes sense to them because that is what they have been raised to believe. IT is sort of the same mentality with believing in Santa. WE know logically he doesn't exist but yet we still adhere to the spirit of Christmas by adorning our houses and malls and neighborhoods with a tribute to SANTA CLAUS..
    TO them, this is their truth and to see it differently would shake their very foundation of security and comfort, which is ultimately their faith.
    Many people question their faith and religion when they grow up while others adhere to it even more stringently. The world is a scary place and leaning on faith and religion helps many people get by without fear of the unknown.
    So, just because it isn't rational or logical to you, doesn't mean it doesn't make perfect sense to the one who believes.
    This isn't really about Noah's Ark. This is about wanting to shake people to the core and have them question what they believe and really explore their faith and religious practices. By pointing out the ludicrous assumption that every animal could fit on Noah's Ark is really begging the question.
    NOTHING about religion is based on fact. IT is based on biblical interpretation of those that understood what God intended for us. IT is based on stories that are meant to teach lessons, values and the way we are supposed to live in harmony. We can't prove that Jesus rose from the dead anymore than we can prove Moses wrote the ten commandments. These are stories that have been written, modified and changed over the years by thousands of writers, storytellers and witnesses to the miracles they profess.
    WE know that, but LOGICALLY some people see it as absolute fact, rather than interpretation. JUST as you know 4+1=5, to be true from the math you have learned,They look to the books they have learned from to believe religion is the answer to their questions. Does that make sense?
    Just being devil's advocate.. No sense in arguing here.
  • Jul 22, 2008, 12:42 PM
    sam8988378
    I have to credit Joss Whedon, (creator and writer of both the late, lamented "Firefly" TV series as well as the movie "Serenity", based upon the series), for the scene, below. I also have to credit Stuart Forsyth Newsvine - Greenpeace Building Replica of Noah's Ark
    For having the quote handy.

    I have to quote one of my favourite scenes from Firefly:

    Book: "What are we up to, sweetheart?"

    River: "Fixing your Bible."

    Book: "I, um...(alarmed)...what?"

    River: "Bible's broken. Contradictions, false logistics - doesn't make sense." (she's marked up the bible, crossed out passages)

    Book: "No, no. You - you can't...

    River: "So we'll integrate non-progressional evolution theory with God's creation of Eden. Eleven inherent metaphoric parallels already there. Eleven. Important number. Prime number. One goes into the house of eleven eleven times, but always comes out one. Noah's ark is a problem."

    Book: "Really?"

    River: "We'll have to call it early quantum state phenomenon. Only way to fit 5000 species of mammal on the same boat." (rips out page)

    :)
  • Jul 22, 2008, 01:05 PM
    sassyT
    [QUOTE]
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lobrobster
    So why don't you just come out and say it? You accept evolution up until the point that it interferes with your precious religious beliefs. Then you're willing to suspended logic as necessary.

    Correction i accept evolution up until the point where there is no longer any evidence.
    Like i said before, my dismissal of the theory of evolution is independent of my religious beliefs, it is merely because after examining evidence i have come to the conclusion that evidence for Macro evolution is non existent and that the theory is based on "conjectures" aka guess work and "inferences" aka leaps of faith and nothing more concrete than that.
    In years of biological studies i am yet to hear of a random mutation that adds new information to a species (outside its genus), the fact that there is none that have been observed makes macro evolution virtually impossible.

    Quote:

    Why would you accept micro and not macro evolution? What reason do you have to think that it stops at some point before becoming macro? So it's OK to accept 1+1=2, 2+1=3, 3+1=4, but we must not assume 4+1=5, because our religious book tells us differently?
    No, Because have not seen any evidence that can remotely lead me to believing i share a common ancestor with a palm tree.
    Your logic is since a wolf and a dog share a common ancestor, you make the leap of faith that they must also share a common ancestor with sea horse. There is no evidence for this "inference". Like i said before random mutation have never shown to add "new" information.
  • Jul 22, 2008, 04:48 PM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sam8988378
    I have to credit Joss Whedon,

    Excellent post!!

    :D :D :D :D :D

    ·
  • Jul 22, 2008, 05:13 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl
    This could have been written to you. "Scholars say" just isn't good enough. Perhaps if you would admit that it is your literal interpretation of the Flood story that is behind your arguments...?

    Actually, I have a scientific background and a university education, and as an engineer, I am required to work with science, and logic and critical investigation of issues. Further, I was once a believer that the Genesis account of creation was merely a symbolic story, and I was a believer in evolution. What convinced me otherwise was when I decided to do more research into both the scientific data and the scriptural account and found that the evolutionary theory was unsubstantiated and was incompatible with the facts. I further found that the scientific evidence was compatible with scripture.
  • Jul 22, 2008, 05:18 PM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3
    I further found that the scientific evidence was compatible with scripture.

    Well, Toms777, we know each other already many years. But over all that time you have never properly explained that "compatibility" between scientific evidence and scripture.

    May be a good time to do that now??

    :rolleyes:

    ·
  • Jul 22, 2008, 05:43 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    Well, Toms777, we know each other already many years. But over all that time you have never properly explained that "compatibility" between scientific evidence and scripture.

    May be a good time to do that now ???

    :rolleyes:

    ·

    Not true, John, I have explained many aspects of it to you in the past, but when I have put forward scientific evidence in the past, you have either ignored it or claimed that you did not see it, even after I posted it 20 times. Thus my comment about the futility of answering your "questions" when you ignored the facts about the Epic of Gilgamesh.
  • Jul 22, 2008, 06:15 PM
    lobrobster
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3
    Actually, I have a scientific background and a university education, and as an engineer, I am required to work with science, and logic and critical investigation of issues. Further, i was once a believer that the Genesis account of creation was merely a symbolic story, and I was a believer in evolution. What convinced me otherwise was when I decided to do more research into both the scientific data and the scriptural account and found that the evolutionary theory was unsubstantiated and was incompatible with the facts. I further found that the scientific evidence was compatible with scripture.

    Please do give the details on the research that led you away from the scientific theory of evolution and into the belief of the creation story. Also, I'm curious... How many of your engineering colleagues believe in creationism? How many are even the slightest bit religious? I suspect you'd stick out like a sore thumb around the water cooler if the subject of religion ever came up.
  • Jul 22, 2008, 06:17 PM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3
    Not true, John, I have explained many aspects of it to you in the past, but when I have put forward scientific evidence in the past, you have either ignored it or claimed that you did not see it, even after I posted it 20 times. Thus my comment about the futility of answering your "questions" when you ignored the facts about the Epic of Gilgamesh.

    Tom : you show yourself with that "Gilgamesh" note that you NEVER provided scientific evidence. There is no scientific evidence for the "Gilgamesh Epic". That is a myth. Just as the Noah's Ark story is a myth - at least till anyone can provide objective supporting evidence that it is not a myth...

    All your explanations in the past were based on claims based on religious belief, i.e. subjective evidence. Scientific evidence is however based on objective supported evidence.

    All you posted 20+ times was subjective religious claims. Not one single iota of scientific evidence was ever included.

    The futility is not in the answering of my questions, but in the total lack of scientific support for your own "arguments".

    Of course you could try to prove me wrong. But you won't. Because you can't. And you know that...

    :rolleyes:

    ·
  • Jul 22, 2008, 06:56 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    Tom : you show yourself with that "Gilgamesh" note that you NEVER provided scientific evidence. There is no scientific evidence for the "Gilgamesh Epic".

    John, I never said that there was evidence for Gilgamesh. Maybe you should go back and read what I said.

    Quote:

    That is a myth. Just as the Noah's Ark story is a myth - at least till anyone can provide objective supporting evidence that it is not a myth...
    Some evidence has already been provided during this discussion, but no doubt you did not see it.

    Quote:

    All your explanations in the past were based on claims based on religious belief, i.e. subjective evidence. Scientific evidence is however based on objective supported evidence.
    And every time that I posted evidence from science and from scientific sites, you claimed not to see it, or would argue against it - no matter what it was. Remember when you argued that magnetic compass needles point East-West simply because I pointed out that they pointed North-South? (even after I provided sites ranging from military to scientific to the Boy Scouts)

    A critical thinker examines the facts before coming to a conclusion. A critical thinker does not simply deny everything that he does not believe.
  • Jul 22, 2008, 07:01 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lobrobster
    Please do give the details on the research that led you away from the scientific theory of evolution and into the belief of the creation story.

    I do not plan to hijack this thread onto a different topic.

    Quote:

    Also, I'm curious... How many of your engineering colleagues believe in creationism?
    Ever heard of the Discovery Institute ?

    Quote:

    How many are even the slightest bit religious? I suspect you'd stick out like a sore thumb around the water cooler if the subject of religion ever came up.
    Not true. Perhaps you should go to church sometime and find out how many engineers are there.
  • Jul 22, 2008, 07:12 PM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3
    John, I never said that there was .....

    Dear Toms777 : as expected I see you again starting to evade providing what I asked you for. We both know why : you can not supply that, because it does not exist. You have already tried that trick on three other boards over some 8 or 9 years.

    This time I call your bluff :

    Toms777 : please POST HERE the scientific evidence you claim to have. Almost no person here on this board has ever seen what you claim to have posted.
    And I clearly tell you that your argumentation was not scientific, but based on subjective argumentation.

    So why don't you prove me wrong?

    :rolleyes:

    ·
  • Jul 22, 2008, 07:17 PM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3
    "Discovery Institute"

    Any organization that promotes "the Devil's Delusion" has little to offer on real scientific level...

    :rolleyes:

    ·
  • Jul 22, 2008, 07:18 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    Dear Toms777 : as expected I see you again starting to evade providing what I asked you for. We both know why : you can not supply that, because it does not exist. You have already tried that trick on three other boards over some 8 or 9 years.

    John, Read the thread and the one that was on the Q&A portion of the board. No, I do not intend to repeat everything previously posted, especially not when you resfuse to acknowledge what has been posted (i.e. the claim about Gilgamesh being thousands of years older than the Biblical account of Noah).

    Demonstrate that you are serious and I would be very happy to discuss, but if you are going to waste my time by asking me to repost things over and over(as you have in the past), and then deny that they were posted (as you are doing once again), then I do not have the time to play that game.

    I will continue to respond to serious questions from those who have shown the intent to interact.

    So, call my bluff by responding to what has been previously posted, acknowledge your error with respect to Gilgamesh, anything to show that you are serious and we will see where that goes.
  • Jul 22, 2008, 07:21 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    Any organization that promotes "the Devil's Delusion" has little to offer on real scientific level ....

    :rolleyes:

    ·

    This is what I mean by refusal to consider anything which disagrees with what you want to believe. Do you even know what the Discovery Institute is? Did you take the time to check out their website?
  • Jul 22, 2008, 07:32 PM
    Capuchin
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lobrobster
    How many of your engineering colleagues believe in creationism? How many are even the slightest bit religious? I suspect you'd stick out like a sore thumb around the water cooler if the subject of religion ever came up.

    Actually - Engineers are the major component of scientists who believe in creation - If you find a scientist who believes in intelligent design, they're likely to be an engineer. Perhaps because they spend all day creating things? :)
  • Jul 22, 2008, 07:33 PM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3
    This is what I mean by refusal to consider anything which disagrees with what you want to believe. Do you even know what the Discovery Institute is? Did you take the time to check out their website?

    Yes. Of course. How otherwise could I state what they support ?

    " ... The point of view Discovery brings to its work includes a belief in God-given reason ... "

    When will you AT LAST provide support for all your claims, as I asked you to do, Toms777?? Or do you AGAIN keep it to wild claims only ?

    I called your bluff, remember ?

    :rolleyes:

    ·
  • Jul 22, 2008, 07:49 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    In "other religion" there was a question on Noah's Ark.
    In the end the topic changed into a debate on the size of the Ark versus the carrying capacity versus the number of all animals and plants that would have to be in the ark to survive the flood.

    Tj3 (AKA Answerway's Toms 777) stated in response to Choux's post on the problems with the size of the ark : "Others used different assumptions and came up with a completely different answer".

    Actually, I posted a link to a document with a detailed analysis. Check it out.
  • Jul 22, 2008, 07:50 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    Yes. Of course. How otherwise could I state what they support ?

    Then you are aware that it is a scientific institute, which studies these issues from a scientific perspective.

    ------------------------
    Started in 1996, the Center for Science and Culture is a Discovery Institute program which:

    * supports research by scientists and other scholars challenging various aspects of neo-Darwinian theory;
    * supports research by scientists and other scholars developing the scientific theory known as intelligent design;
    * supports research by scientists and scholars in the social sciences and humanities exploring the impact of scientific materialism on culture.
    * encourages schools to improve science education by teaching students more fully about the theory of evolution, including the theory's scientific weaknesses as well is its strengths.

    Discovery's Center for Science and Culture has more than 40 Fellows, including biologists, biochemists, chemists, physicists, philosophers and historians of science, and public policy and legal experts, many of whom also have affiliations with colleges and universities.

    The Center's Director is Dr. Stephen Meyer, who holds a Ph.D. in the history and philosophy of science from Cambridge University.
    The Center's Associate Director is Dr. John G. West, who holds a Ph.D. in Government from Claremont Graduate University and a B.A. in Communications from the University of Washington.
    (Source: CSC - About CSC)
    ------------------

    Will you admit that?

    BTW, "to call my bluff" as you say, I need you to prove that you are actually reading something and willing to acknowledge it. So far I have seen no evidence of that. (i.e. your refusal to acknowledge your error regarding Gilgamesh, your refusal to acknowledge the evidence posted on the thread regarding the feasibility of the account of Noah's ark, etc.). Until you do so, then I am wasting my time posting the same things again, as I have in the past.
  • Jul 22, 2008, 08:25 PM
    lobrobster
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3
    Ever heard of the Discovery Institute ?

    Yes I have. Say no more.
  • Jul 22, 2008, 09:24 PM
    WVHiflyer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Scholars surmise that a series of Sumerian legends and poems about the mythological hero-king Gilgamesh, who might have been a real ruler in the late Early Dynastic II period (ca. 27th century BC)[1], were gathered into a longer Akkadian poem long afterward, with the most complete version existing today preserved on twelve clay tablets in the library collection of the 7th century BC Assyrian king Ashurbanipal.
    Source: Epic of Gilgamesh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    There is nothing definite about whether it is only a story, or when it occurred, but the story was recorded much later than 2700 BC according to scholars. This places the Gilgamesh story after the historic flood recorded in Genesis.

    A more direct source f/ Gilgamesh:

    Epic of Gilgamesh




    -
  • Jul 22, 2008, 09:35 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by WVHiflyer
    A more direct source f/ Gilgamesh:

    Epic of Gilgamesh

    Yep, and it agrees with what I said. The setting of the tale is in the 26-27th century, while the earliest Akkadian text are estimated by experts to be in the 20th century, a few hundred years after the flood recorded in the Bible.
  • Jul 22, 2008, 10:07 PM
    WVHiflyer
    Quote:

    Tj3> I decided to do more research into both the scientific data and the scriptural account and found that the evolutionary theory was unsubstantiated and was incompatible with the facts. I further found that the scientific evidence was compatible with scripture.
    ...
    Ever heard of the Discovery Institute?. Then you are aware that it is a scientific institute, which studies these issues from a scientific perspective.

    With which facts are evolution incompatible? And which sci evid compatible with scripture?
    Of course your source of ICR explains. Yet no matter how scientific you try to make their supposed studies, at least on evolution, their POV is religious, their 'science' can only be fairly called 'creation science' and it's been proven in court that it is solely based on religion.



    -
  • Jul 22, 2008, 10:32 PM
    WVHiflyer
    Another source for Gilgamesh, w/ a couple pargraphs f/ it
    gilgamesh

    GILGAMESH IS FROM ANCIENT SUMER

    Gilgamesh is one of the oldest recorded stories in the world. It tells the story of an ancient King of Uruk, Gilgamesh, who may have actually existed, and whose name is on the Sumerian King List. The story of Gilgamesh, in various Sumerian versions, was originally widely known in the third millennium B.C. After a long history of retellings, this story was recorded, in a standardized Akkadian version, in the seventh century B.C. and stored in the famous library of King Assurbanipal.

    Later, the story of Gilgamesh was lost to human memory, except for occasional fragments. The story was rediscovered in the mid-nineteenth century A.D. and made available in translation to German by the beginning of the twentieth century. People were especially amazed when they read this most ancient of stories, and realized that the flood story in Gilgamesh was a close analogue of the flood story in the Hebrew Bible.

    ORAL AND WRITTEN TRANSMISSION OF GILGAMESH

    Without a fixed written text, stories can be told for thousands of years, varying from teller to teller, adapted to this folk and that folk, with the names of kings, places, people added and subtracted to meet the needs and interests of a current audience. The story of Gilgamesh was originally part of such an oral tradition. "It is virtually impossible to determine when the material was first written down, let alone when it originated orally or how long it existed in an oral tradition. Rather it can be assumed, from the materials handed down from succeeding ancient peoples and languages, that it was not composed all of a piece and at one time but was added to gradually and varied by many tellers." (Mason 98)

    -------------

    While the story can't be proven, there is sci evidence to support one theory. It involves the Bosphorus and a collapsed dam that occurred about the time the story was supposed to have occurred. A quick search found the following (there was also a TV show on HST or DSC but I couldn't find it):

    Overview
    Two senior scientists from Columbia University have proposed a theory that a massive transfer of water occurred about 5600 BCE - over seven and a half millennia ago. They wrote: "Ten cubic miles of water poured through each day, two hundred times what flows over Niagara Falls." "The Bosporus flume roared and surged at full spate for at least three hundred days." 60,000 square miles of land were inundated. 1 The Black Sea shoreline significantly expanded to the north and east. The lake's its water level was raised many hundreds of feet. It changed from a fresh-water landlocked lake into a salt water lake connected to the world's oceans.

    They have drawn on the findings of experts in agriculture, archaeology, genetics, geology, language, development of textiles and pottery, etc. They postulate that this deluge had catastrophic effects on the people living on the shore of the Black Sea. It triggered mass migrations across Europe and into the Near East, Middle East and Egypt. It may have been the source of many flood stories in the area. Some researchers believe that the story of Noah's flood in the Biblical book of Genesis is a myth that had its origin in this cataclysmic event.

    A book by William Ryan and Walter Pitman describes one of the most fascinating scientific puzzles of recent years. We found it far more riveting than any detective novel. 1

    A possible source of the Noah's Flood story



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  • Jul 22, 2008, 10:42 PM
    WVHiflyer
    Quote:

    capuchin > Actually - Engineers are the major component of scientists who believe in creation - If you find a scientist who believes in intelligent design, they're likely to be an engineer. Perhaps because they spend all day creating things?
    Good one... and I loved the pic! (post #16) :D

    I haven't read here yet that this is 2nd time humankind numbers grew due to incest (3rd if you count Job and his daughters). Guess that's why we all share so much DNA... :eek:



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  • Jul 23, 2008, 01:16 AM
    Capuchin
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by WVHiflyer
    Good one...and I loved the pic! (post #16) :D

    I haven't read here yet that this is 2nd time humankind numbers grew due to incest (3rd if you count Job and his daughters). Guess that's why we all share so much DNA.... :eek:

    Don't forget how much DNA we share with monkeys! Yikes!
  • Jul 23, 2008, 01:43 AM
    Credendovidis
    1 Attachment(s)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Capuchin
    Don't forget how much DNA we share with monkeys! Yikes!

    And than to know that we humans share up to 60% of our DNA with bananas, and still manage to walk up right...

    Which brings me to the question : how could plants survive during the "Great Flood" , while the entire world would have been covered by sea water for weeks on end ? And what did animals eat after the "flood" to survive - besides each other - after all plants life would have been near permanently destroyed by being covered in sea water for so long?

    (some) Plants may over time have recovered, but what did animals eat to survive till that moment?
    And what did all animals drink after the flood? There was only sea water all over the globe...
  • Jul 23, 2008, 07:20 AM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    Toms777 : I asked you for reposting that list of scientific evidence you claim to have posted over 20 times before on other boards.

    John, why should I need to repost everything over and over and over again? This is the same approach that you have used elsewhere, and no matter how many times I post it, you deny that it has been posted, or claim that you cannot see it.

    Why don't you defend your position by presenting the evidence that you believes supports your position, or provide evidence that you believe refutes what others post on here. That would be a more effective approach than simply denying everything.

    Quote:

    I will keep doing that from now on till you either admit that your list was not based on scientific evidence, or till you repost that list actually. So expect this message many times from now , at least every time you post your empty claims!
    I don't think that spamming and harassing is any more acceptable on here than the last board you were on.
  • Jul 23, 2008, 07:29 AM
    sassyT
    It is just a matter of interpretation. Because you believe in Macro evolution therefore you interpret common DNA as "common ancestory", while on the other hand, people who believe in intelligent design interpret the common DNA as "common Designer".
    If a creator is going to create living organisms that inhabbit the same environment (earth) isn't it only logical that he would use a similar blueprints to obtain a master design.
    So the DNA argument is yet another invalid "inference" made by Darwinists.
  • Jul 23, 2008, 07:48 AM
    sassyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by WVHiflyer
    With which facts are evolution incompatable?


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    Fact # 1 There is no Fossil evidence for the claims made by the theory
    Fact # 2 There is zero evidence that a little mythical warm soup/pond (where all living things came from) ever existed
    Fact # 3 There is no evidence that a little one cell creature crawled out of this soup and morphed into every living thing we see today.
    Fact # 4 There is no evidence that a wolf like creature evolved into the whales we see today.
    Fact # 5 There is no evidence that a random mutation can add "new" information to a species (outside its genus)
    Fact #6 There is no evidence than humans share a common ancestor with palms trees and carrots.

    I could just go on.. but I won't. I think we have enough here to show macro evolution is a myth and a hoax. :rolleyes:

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