Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
A Will is not the place to cover this - a Will is read/probated following death, also does not take effect until after death.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
A Will is not the place to cover this - a Will is read/probated following death, also does not take effect until after death.
Point taken. What other legal process do you suggest more appropriate?Quote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
:)
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I was thinking that too. It has to be a living will that your lawyer has for when the situation arises.Quote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
Living Will, Do Not Resuscitate Order - but I've posted this before. My husband was a Doctor of Pharmacy, thought he knew how to guarantee his wishes would be followed, knew he was a dying man, had a DNR, a Living Will - made his intent and wishes very well known to all his Doctors as well as family.
During his final hospitalization he was resuscitated 3 times - one time the hospital didn't have the DNR because it was in the file from his previous hospitalization and they hadn't combined the files yet (I had also handed them a copy when he was admitted); once he "simply stopped breathing" but had no cardiac complications so he was put on a ventilator; once the explanation was, "Whoops." I never would have known about the 3rd Resuscitation except for the paddle/burn marks on his chest.
He suffered beyond words for over 3 weeks. Twenty-two times they told me there was over a 60% chance that he would not live through the night.
His suffering was horrific and I had to watch this man who really was my world go through it - and I was helpless. In the end every test had been done, some of them twice, he was medically and legally brain dead, he responded to nothing (not pain, not light, not sounds) and the Social Worker appeared (I have no idea where she had been hiding for over 3 weeks), found out he had long term health care insurance and suggested I make inquiries into nursing homes. That's when I called my Attorney.
The day my husband died I fought the hospital which insisted he have dialysis while waiting for hospice to arrive. They lost the fight.
I wish I had an answer - I don't know how you protect yourself or your loved ones. I truly agonize over the whole experience and I have no idea what I could have done.
I would have died for him - and I was helpless to do anything but hold his hand and watch him pass, a shell of who he was - after over 3 horrific weeks which served absolutely no purpose.
I heard you can sue if they do not follow the DNR.
You did everything you could have. Sometimes situations happen that make a mess of things.
Yes it is hard, but to follow up with the original question, the state execution and the natural dying of someone is two different things.
The state has the right to decide the punishment and even from most of the major religions they have always reconised this right that the state has to punish criminals, As for allowing a person to die, while there should be no direct causing it, suicide, if a persons body is to the point of death and only being keep alive with machines ( not counting feeding) then a person should have the right to decide to refuse medical treatment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
But how do you make certain your wishes will be followed? As I said - all of this was covered and still I was helpless.
Thanks JudyKayTee, Nohelp4u, and Fr. Chuck for your posts.
Seems that we still do not have a modus that provides some clarity on the procedure that is followed, how such a procedure is ensured, and what guarantees we have that - goodwilling - hospital staff sidesteps such clear instructions.
Also thanks JudyKayTee for your story on what you and your husband had to go through.
I am much obliged for your report !
:)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Choux
Choux
If you think God and Christianity are just fantasies, why is it that you insist that You alone know what these "fantasies" consist of?
Despite what you may believe about God and Christianity, and this probably stems from some emotional trauma at the hands of Christians, which is inexcusable, God loves you. :D
John 3:16 :)
The parable of the prodigal son. ;)
That is what you BELIEVE ...Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
:rolleyes:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michealb
"Paradise" is my selfish motive. :( You don't have to believe in God, you see people chase "paradise" through drugs, or sex, or materialism, or whatever happens to float their boat.
A Christ follower's life is not his own, it is surrendered to God. It is His blood that covers all sin. He calls us to love and serve others just as He has done with us. 1 John.
He tells us that this life is not about us, but of God's, Luke 14 :26-27, 33. "thy will be done."
And it isn't going to be easy: "take up your cross," "the first will be last," Blessed are the meek, the poor in spirit," there will be persecutions, etc...
But faith, hope, love, joy, peace these are the fruit of the Spirit, Galatians 5:22-23. You don't have to wait till you die for it. :D
That is what you BELIEVE !Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
:rolleyes:
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Yes, it is what I believe, backed up Biblically.
I wanted to point out the error in Michaelb's logic. That error stems from common misconceptions about Christianity, perpetuated by people, in this case, who don't believe in God or Christianity. ;)
I actually disagree with the Vatican's definition of euthanasia on this.Quote:
What is so special in this case is that it is the first ever Italian court decision to allow suspending of any medical treatment and (artificial) ways of sustaining life. And also that the judgment drew instant criticism from the Vatican, which condemned it as as euthanasia.
Living wills or advanced directives allow for withholding treatment, and allowing a person to die. This even happens in the Catholic hospital I work at. ;)
I still don't see the error in my logic. Just because people chase paradise on earth doesn't really have anything to do with my argument. Even if you have everything you ever wanted on earth and have wealth of spirit, heaven would still suppose to be better. Why would you delay going there?
A Christ follower's life is not his own, it is surrendered to God. It is His blood that covers all sin. He calls us to love and serve others just as He has done with us. 1 John.
Really kids, can't we just agree to disagree already. No one is going to convince the opposing side that they are right, it isn't possible.
Quoting the bible isn't going to work, talking about your faith isn't going to work, nothing is going to work. If you all want to fight then fine, go for it, but this fight is a lesson in futility.
The atheists don't believe in God, they will do everything to dispute the existence of God, the Christians believe in God and will do everything to dispute the atheists . Do you really think that anyone is going to change their beliefs because of what is said here? If anything, the only result is anger.
So, believe what you believe, be happy with that belief, and your right to believe it. You do not have to explain or justify your belief, and doing so will get you no where.
I'm just so darn tired of all the fighting. :(
Total nonsense!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
All I ask for is objective supporting evidence for the existence of a "God" deity with all the supra-natural powers as is claimed.
I have asked that thousands of time - if not more. Never has anyone really attempted to provide that evidence.
STILL theists seem to be incapable of admitting that all they BELIEVE is based on dogmatic claims that can not be checked, therefore have no basis of objective supported evidence.
My conclusion therefore can only be : theists deep down know that what ever they believe is dogmatic bull manure, but can't bring themselves to admit that.
Believe whatever you want, but respect that any other world view is just as valid as your own world view. I do. Most theists can't do that.
Now : why would that be??
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Boxed in Guy,
What you *BELIEVE* is just fantasy (and nonsense!)to me and a majority of folks on planet earth. :D
It's not my job to prove it to you, and you don't really want proof Cred, you want to fight, I've read your posts. I find it very amusing that a man that doesn't believe in God spends the majority of his time on the religious boards putting down peoples beliefs and starting arguments.Quote:
Total nonsense!!
All I ask for is objective supporting evidence for the existence of a "God" deity with all the supra-natural powers as is claimed.
I have asked that thousands of time - if not more. Never has anyone really attempted to provide that evidence.
When something is said that you cannot dispute, you start name calling and or picking out spelling errors etc. You amuse me. What do you hope to accomplish? Do you want people to stop believing in God, give up and come to your side? What is all this arguing and fighting about? Can't you just accept peoples beliefs?
Tell you what, you want proof that God exists, well I want proof that he doesn't. Substantial proof, not just, can you see him, no, therefore he doesn't exist. Don't quote the bible, because I don't believe in the bible. Prove it to me.
Good luck. :)
You do not have to defend that what you believe. Reason why I only ask religious people to provide objective supported evidence for what they suggest to be the "truth" when they try to limit the freedom of others who have a different world view and opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Religious people may from me be against euthanasia. No problem. If they want to die in pain and without any dignity : Amen! So be it.
But it is not their right to decide - based on their religious views - that I am not permitted to decide on the way and moment of my own death, when the time for that comes.
===
I refer to my previous post, where you conveniently failed to skip the following :
You stated :
To which I replied :Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Note that you were lying there : there are only very few Atheists - if any at all - who argue the existence of God. Why would they waste their energy on that wild claim?Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
I never claim that "God" does not exist. I know I can not prove that "God" does not exist, while theists can not even prove that "God" does exist. So why bother on that?
All I ever do is asking theists (who make religious claims that may limit me in having different views) to provide me with objective supporting evidence that "God" exists. So far I have never seen any of that...
All atheists doing everything to dispute the existence of God? Total nonsense !!! Complete Bull waste !!!
Please note that the topic here is euthanasia and religion.
:rolleyes:
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I'm done, stick a fork in me (not literally). I agree with your views on euthanasia, and I agree that no one has a right to force their beliefs on others. But, isn't that what you're trying to do?
All I said is stop fighting already, agree to disagree and move on. This is all a complete waste of time, that's my opinion, but I'm done fighting for it.
Do what you will, say what you want, just remember one thing. Some people's beliefs are very strong, and they will fight to the death to defend it. You are just egging them on, and that's not helpful, but hurtful. Think about that, please, not just you Cred, but everyone.
Peace people, I gave my opinion, and that's all, just wanted to bring a bit of peace and understanding to all of you, but once again, my words fall on deaf ears, or are misunderstood.
Good luck to all of you. :):)
No you did not just gave your opinion : you lied!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
I refer once more to one of my previous posts, where you conveniently failed to skip the following :
You stated :
To which I replied :Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Note that you were lying there : there are only very few Atheists - if any at all - who argue the existence of God. Why would they waste their energy on that wild claim?Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
I never claim that "God" does not exist. I know I can not prove that "God" does not exist, while theists can not even prove that "God" does exist. So why bother on that?
All I ever do is asking theists (who make religious claims that may limit me in having different views) to provide me with objective supporting evidence that "God" exists. So far I have never seen any of that...
All atheists doing everything to dispute the existence of God? Total nonsense !!! Complete Bull waste !!!
So Altenweg :
WHY DID YOU LIE WITH YOUR : "atheists don't believe in God, they will do everything to dispute the existence of God"
And - WORSE - why don't you address this , or even try to skip this completely ?
:rolleyes:
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OMG, fine, when I said I gave my opinion, I meant my opinion on euthanasia.
Did I lie, no, I didn't lie, I stated what I believed was true. I don't know anything about atheism, because I don't care to know. I do have a friend that's atheist, and his belief is that God does not exist, plain and simple, the end, he's constantly trying to prove to me that God does not exist. It wasn't a lie Cred, it's stating what someone who is an atheist said to me and told me of his beliefs. That's it. You just have to make a big deal about every little thing, don't you?
And like I said before, it's not my job to prove to you that God exists, if you really want to know then find the proof yourself. I don't need proof, nor am I going to look for it. I believe what I believe for reasons of my own. I've said before, I'm probably the only person you've ever met that believes in God but not the bible, believes in God but not in church. I don't belong to any religious group, I will not listen to one mans opinion on God. I can't prove God exists and you can't prove he doesn't, done, finished, neither one of us is going to change the others opinion.
As for saying that atheists don't believe in God and will do everything to dispute the existence of God, well if that's wrong I apologize, like I said, that's my friends point of view, and he is in fact an atheist.
Happy?
So, while being aware that you do not know anything about atheism, you still stated :Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
And you added here that you do not even care to know. That makes it even worse !Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
You lied, and you stated that deliberately, because you knew that you "don't know anything about atheism, and because you don't care to know". Never the less you accused all atheists of doing everything to dispute the existence of God...
In view of my response, showing you to be lying, you now apologize. You could not do otherwise, and it sounds far from sincere.
Thank you for showing the real you, the real Altenweg...
:rolleyes:
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And thank you for continuing to show the real you Cred. You are a very angry man, for some reason or other you aren't happy and you do everything you can to belittle others and start fights. I feel sorry for you.
Was I sincere when I apologized, yes, if I made a mistake, then I do apologize. I shouldn't have based one mans beliefs (my friend who is an atheist) in my opinion of all. But you do it all the time, so I thought it was fair game, I guess you feel that only you can do that, no one else.
Unlike you, I have no desire to explore other religious or non religious beliefs, I have better things to do with my time. I respect your right to believe what you want, I do not respect the fact that you constantly put down other people's beliefs and try to shove yours down their throats.
Even if I had substantial, tangible proof that God exists, you still wouldn't believe, that's not why you are here, you just want to cause dissention. You claim to want a discussion on religion, but all you do is name call and put people down.
The people who know me, know who and what I am, that's all that matters to me, your opinion of me doesn't matter one little bit.
Good luck. :)
A ludicrous statement. I have NEVER condemned anyone's religious belief. Nor have I EVER told anyone that he/she should not believe whatever suits him/her. Prove me wrong if you can. You can't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Because I respect everyone's right to believe whatever suits them.
But that right does not mean that you can lie here deliberately - like you did here. Or that you may make wild claims, like so many do here. All I ask people is to put "I believe that" in front of their religious claims. But almost all here refuse to do that. While they know that no religious statement can be based on facts, but on belief only. So who are the intolerants here?
The point is not that you apologized for your deliberate lie. You simply had to apologize, as the evidence was clearly visible and could not be denied.
But now who is whining here? Talk about a very angry person, who for some reason is not happy and does anything to sidestep and gloze over her dishonest and intolerant behavior on this board...
I feel sorry for you !
If you had... But you don't have that, because it does not exist!! And why do you suggest that I than still wouldn't believe? That is another wild claim by you ! You have no idea what I would do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
If you had Objective Supported Evidence towards the existence of "God" and for "God" being the "Creator", I would accept that evidence.
But you and I know that such OSE does not exist, and never will exist. And THAT is your real problem, and cause for your frustration !
:rolleyes:
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Whatever Cred. Believe what you want, makes no difference to me. Peace. :)
I see you can't prove me wrong...Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Peace to you too, Alt.
:rolleyes:
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Not my job to prove you wrong, I know what I believe, and I know who and what I am, and that's all I need. You want proof find it yourself. Good luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
And - WORSE - why don't you address this , or even try to skip this completely ?
Cred, gag me you skip many questions... there you go again 1 set of rules for you one for everyone else.
Alty ignore him.
So that allows you to deliberately LIE once more here in this topic within 24 hours?Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
I do not need that proof : I know that proof does not exist. It is you who suggested to have that proof, but as soon as your bluff is called you disappear with your tail between your legs...
How wonderful evolution is to allow for that!!
:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :D
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I plan to Bushg. I can't believe I got sucked in again. But this time, it was more for amusement and entertainment. It's funny to watch the lengths he'll go to to try and prove he's right.
Cred, quote your little heart out, this is better than cable. :)
Damm right lol :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Your such a funny man. You are lying. You said you wanted proof, and that if I had that proof you would believe. Now you say you don't need proof, because it doesn't exist. Which is Cred? You keep contradicting yourself. Go ahead, you don't even need me here to prove what I've been saying, every time you open your mouth you prove me right about you. You're great at digging your own grave, I don't even need to hand you shovel. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
I am lying ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Reaction by Credendividis :Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
No Alt. I am not lying. You are. For the second time in the same topic within 24 hours... That must be a record, even here...Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
:D :D :D :D :D
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Can't you come up with something original Cred?
As for lying, yes you did. It's funny how you only see others mistakes and not your own.
You just keep saying the same thing over and over again, run out of arguments Cred?
Well, I have better things to do then talk to you. My kids are back from their play date and I’m going to go spend some time with them, that should give you some time to find the best comeback. Go look at all my posts, quote, and then spin it anyway you want. I look forward to seeing what you came up with.
:D :D :D :D
Look, I can post big insincere greenie smiles too. :)
You going to point out my spelling errors now? After all, that's all you have left. :)
I am lying ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Reaction by Credendividis :Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
No Alt. I am not lying. You are. For the third time in the same topic within 24 hours... That surely must be a record, even here...Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
:D :D :D :D :D
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Ha, ha, I see that you've run out of arguments Cred, just keep repeating yourself, it won't make your statements any more true. I do believe you are at a loss for words, how amusing.
Let me guess what comes next, the same post, yet again, with only one word changed, third to fourth. Am I right Cred, or can you come up with something original?
:D :D :D :D :D
More big grins for you.
Altenberg post #56 Jul 14, 2008, 05:35 AM
That was your first lie here, and you had to admit later that it was indeed a lie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenberg
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Altenberg post #65 Jul 15, 2008, 11:58 PM
That were two lies and/or misrepresentations...Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenberg
Credendovidis post #66 Jul 16, 2008, 01:59 AM
No serious reply received from Altenberg against this post...Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
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Altenberg post #75 Jul 16, 2008, 03:03 AM
That was a nonsensical statement, as it does not specify anything. Of course not : you can not specify that, as I did not lie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenberg
Another unsuppported misrepresentation based on frustration instead of on reality.
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And once I call your bluff of lies, you disappear with your tail between your legs, just to re-appear later with more lies...
AT LEAST I DEFEND AND SUPPORT MY STATEMENTS - UNLIKE YOU...
What a sad and frustrated person you are Altenberg !
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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