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-   -   What the heck is 'faith' all about, and how can you really 'believe'? (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=230820)

  • Jun 27, 2008, 08:32 PM
    firmbeliever
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by margog85
    firmbeliever- I'm glad that your happy with your beliefs, but I really didn't gather from your response why you believe what you do, except that it makes sense to you and that it provides answers to your questions. But do you ever wonder if your beliefs are 'right'- like, if what you believe about god is actually what really is? Because there are so many religions out there, all of which make sense to and provide answers to those who believe in that religion. Are all religions equally valid, and truth something relative? I have a really hard time understanding that.
    own physical capacity to control, not something we get from some outside source?


    And in regard to whatever this debating is all about... I'm not touching that one. lol. I'm not here to argue or accuse anyone of forcing their beliefs or discuss how religious people do or do not conduct themselves- I just have questions and want to hear from people and discuss their answers. That's all.

    I personally believe I am following the right one,because my beliefs do not negate in totality the Jewish or Christian beliefs or other pure monotheistic beliefs of ancient times.
    I believe it has been the same religion since the beginning of the first human, and that it has been passed down in every generation somewhere in the world.

    And also believe that there has been changes made into pure monotheism by different generations by adopting polytheism or denial of a Creator.

    I believe I am following the last of the Messengers and I do not reject any of the previous ones in the sense that I follow strict monotheism,no praying to statues or humans or nature.

    And I do believe my faith to be the true faith and I have no doubts about it at all.

    I can give you few examples of why I have already crossed out other monotheistic religions as I believe those not being true,and this is not to offend anyone but just to state my personal beliefs on it.

    Judaism-their belief that they are the chosen people for all time.
    Christianity-trinity and that Jesus(alaihi salaam) was the son of God does not make sense to me in that an Almighty Creator of this universe needing a human son or any other partner is difficult for me to imagine.

    Now when I listed the above faiths,it does not mean that I do not believe that Judaism and Christianity as a whole,because I believe in the existence of Jesus(alaihi salaam) and the existence of Moses(alaihi salaam) and many other messengers before them,but I do believe that each of those messengers preached monotheism.


    :)
  • Jun 27, 2008, 09:35 PM
    simoneaugie
    Margog85 you said... "and like saying you 'feel' something is not a dependable reason for 'believing' in something, because how you feel can be influenced by so many different things.."

    We choose how we feel. Nobody and nothing can make you feel anything you don't wan't to, even pain. We can allow ourselves to follow the group and feel the way that is "appropriate," or we can pick our own road.

    An ultimate higher power can be what we choose to feel the presence of or we might choose the God of the Jewish people, or the Christians, or pure logic and proven facts. Anything we choose is fine because we have free will.
  • Jun 28, 2008, 01:24 AM
    Allheart
    Margog – Let me just first say, I am touched by your beauty within, it illumanates in your post and thank you so much for addressing me and taking the time to read my post. It makes me smile :)

    Don't get me wrong, I do love life, my husband, family and others. When I say that my life without God's love would be bleek, by that I mean, when I see the starving children in this country and others, it would devastate me so much more, to not know that God is right there with them, and will ultimately carry them home.

    When I see unkindness, or people hurt and devastated, it would kill me that they would have to forever suffer. When I see people stricken with an illness, cancer or any type, I would be at such a loss at all the pain. But having God's love in my heart, I have such a peace, as I know God will take care of them and protect them. That, this life is just a preliminary, to the ultimate one that awaits us.

    I think that's more of what I mean, that such things as that would be so hard to digest, without knowing that God has a bigger plan for all those who do suffer.

    I've never questioned my faith, that I may be wrong. Actually, it's the one area in my life, that I never did wonder if I may not be right. All other areas, I basically question all the time, it keeps my mind open to learn new things.

    The reason that I never have questioned, as God has been so good to me, and I always feel His love and protection. I also feel His disappointment with me, when I go wrong or do wrong.

    Margog, you sound as though you have a beautiful spirituality within you. You hold on to that. It's no different then any other type of spirituality, it may just be defined differently, but I can tell, you carry a great deal of love for all within you, and that is truly what it is all about.

    Yes, there are many different faiths all of which I do respect. I've always just defined it for myself, that all faiths are just roads to Our loving Father.

    I don't think God wants us all to be exactly the same, that is why he gave us free will, but He does want us to carry the type of love that you do, within our hearts, for each other.

    Bless the beautiful person that you are.
  • Jun 28, 2008, 06:50 AM
    margog85
    I don't have much time right now to respond to any of these posts, but I wanted to recommend a book to you, Allheart, if you haven't already read it.

    Life of Pi, by Yan Martel. I think you'd really really enjoy it.
  • Jun 28, 2008, 08:18 AM
    Allheart
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by margog85
    I don't have much time right now to respond to any of these posts, but I wanted to recommend a book to you, Allheart, if you haven't already read it.

    Life of Pi, by Yan Martel. I think you'd really really enjoy it.

    Thank you so much Margog - I never have read of the book, but did just look it up and is sounds wonderful to read. Will be getting it - Thanks again :)
  • Jun 28, 2008, 09:25 AM
    SkyGem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N0help4u
    and what do you think that other power out there may be???:rolleyes:

    she could ask a rabbi even

    Well, don't you see, NOhelp, that other power who created her could be the ocean, or a rock or an animal. Some people actually believe that, but then we just have to ask but WHO created that ocean, that rock or that animal if it wasn't God with His almighty omnipotent power of creation.
  • Jun 28, 2008, 01:47 PM
    Wangdoodle
    Faith is a gift from God. Our intellect and ability to reason can lead us to believe in God. But to truly have faith, that is to act and live our lives for our creator, is a gift. One must pray for faith or an increase in faith.

    Just another thought. Just because an idea is old does not necessarily mean it is false. In fact, the opposite may be true. To the people of the first century, the writings of The New Testament were current. Like wise for the people of The Old Testament. If The Scriptures were true then, they are true now.
  • Jun 28, 2008, 06:00 PM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N0help4u
    I wasn't indoctrinated when I was growing up. When I was little I 'knew' there had to be something and nobody ever really explained it to me.

    Sorry, but I can not accept that. When you were very little you had no idea who you were or what was happening. While growing up you were embedded in religion, so you "learned" religion just as you learned and were stimulated to crawl or to walk, or to "potty", etc.
    The continuous process of religious upbringing is a kind of brain washing, so later started thinking that you "knew" there had to be something.

    Do you really think that if nobody had ever taught you to "potty", you would as an older child be house-trained?
    Do you really think that if nobody had ever taught you to religion, you would as an older child have believed in "God"?

    :rolleyes:

    ·
  • Jun 28, 2008, 06:12 PM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SkyGem
    Some people actually believe that, but then we just have to ask but WHO created that ocean, that rock or that animal if it wasn't God with His almighty omnipotent power of creation.

    So you accept the religious claim of the existence of a deity called "God" with that "God" being the "Creator" - WITHOUT any objective supporting evidence, but you reject scientific supported theories and thesis explaining and (part) supporting the origin of the universe and/or evolution, etc. Scientific theories and thesis that include various cross-linked or multi-supported links?

    :rolleyes:

    ·
  • Jun 28, 2008, 06:17 PM
    bushg
    "Do you really think that if nobody had ever taught you to religion, you would as an older child have believed in "God"? "


    One of my first memories is sitting on the steps listening to my grandmother reading from the bible. I was always taken to church, went to church probably until I was 14 years old.

    I don't really believe or not believe in fact, I don't know what to make of all of this religion non religion stuff.. everyone keeps going on about.

    I have an elderly neighbor that said his parents never went to church, never discussed the bible, God or religion in the home. He is a die hard believer...

    So maybe Nohelps upbringing does not have anything to do with her faith in God.
  • Jun 28, 2008, 06:22 PM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wangdoodle
    Faith is a gift from God.

    You BELIEVE that Faith is a gift from God.
    You BELIEVE that Our intellect and ability to reason can lead us to believe in God.

    "Just because an idea is old does not necessarily mean it is false".
    Neither does any (opposing) new idea necessarily mean that it is false !

    You BELIEVE that In fact, the opposite may be true.

    "If The Scriptures were true then, they are true now".
    If you BELIEVE the Scriptures were true than , than they are true now.

    Which leaves us again at the basic question about religion : where is the objective supported evidence for the existence of a deity called "God", and for that "God" being the "Creator"?
    There is no such evidence. ALL ONE CAN DO IS BELIEVE THAT.

    :rolleyes:

    ·
  • Jun 28, 2008, 06:48 PM
    N0help4u
    Just as I suspected
    Wangdoodle did not say fact he did not say this IS the way it is
    Wangdoodle simply stated his opinion and Cred has to make an issue with
    The YOU Believe

    Dah YEAH it is his post so whatever he says in HIS post is what HE believes

    Wangdoodle doesn't need objective support for what he believes he can share what he believes and *most* of us can accept it as what he believes without the I BELIEVE
    It goes without saying

    What the heck is 'faith' all about, and how can you really 'believe'?

    Margog's question was What the heck is 'faith' all about, and how can you really 'believe'?

    NOT where is the objective supported evidence for the existence of a deity called "God", and for that "God" being the "Creator"?:rolleyes:
  • Jun 28, 2008, 07:03 PM
    letmetellu
    Let's set up a situation, suppose that you are standing on a clift and the ground gives away beneath you and you drop for a long ways but you see a tree root and you grab it. Since you have not been able to find any other power that might save you, but since you have heard of GOD when you were young you call out to GOD to save you. A voice from above says, do you have faith, and you say yes I do. Then the voice says if you have faith turn loose of the tree root. If you really have faith in GOD you will follow that faith and turn loose of the root not knowing what was in store for you. To me that would be a true faith.
  • Jun 28, 2008, 07:04 PM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wangdoodle
    Faith is a gift from God. Our intellect and ability to reason can lead us to believe in God. But to truly have faith, that is to act and live our lives for our creator, is a gift. One must pray for faith or an increase in faith.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N0help4u
    Just as I suspected . Wangdoodle did not say fact he did not say this IS the way it is wangdoodle simply stated his opinion and Cred has to make an issue with
    The YOU BELEIVE

    "Faith is a gift from God" is a statement unsupported by any objective evidence, so it is a claim, it is what Wangdoodle BELIEVES !

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N0help4u
    wangdoodle doesn't need objective support for what he believes

    True, of course not. I never stated that he should. Still it is true that he only BELIEVES the statements he made are true, and that so far he failed to provide objective supporting evidence for his claims.

    Anyone here may from me make even the wildest religious claims and statements. And I am allowed every time I feel appropriate to mention that that is what it is : BELIEF AND NOTHING ELSE!!

    Since when is it not allowed to state that here on the Discussion boards?

    :rolleyes:

    ·
  • Jun 28, 2008, 07:15 PM
    N0help4u
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    "Faith is a gift from God" is a statement unsupported by any objective evidence, so it is a claim, it is what Wangdoodle BELIEVES !


    True, of course not. I never stated that he should. Still it is true that he only BELIEVES the statements he made are true, and that so far he failed to provide objective supporting evidence for his claims.

    Anyone here may from me make even the wildest religious claims and statements. And I am allowed every time I feel appropriate to mention that that is what it is : BELIEF AND NOTHING ELSE !!!

    Since when is it not allowed to state that here on the Discussion boards?

    :rolleyes:

    ·


    EXACTLY it is what he believes and the question was What the heck is 'faith' all about, and how can you really 'believe'?

    So you still haven't answered my question why do people have to include this is what I believe or you feel they are stating what they say as them insisting it is fact?
  • Jun 29, 2008, 02:39 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N0help4u
    EXACTLY it is what he believes

    Yes, and that is precisely the problem. The questions "what is faith about" and "how can you believe" is answered with what he believes. An example of circular argumentation : I believe it because I believe it...

    A LOGICAL "NO" "NO" !!!

    :rolleyes:

    ·
  • Jun 29, 2008, 06:15 AM
    N0help4u
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    "Faith is a gift from God" is a statement unsupported by any objective evidence, so it is a claim, it is what Wangdoodle BELIEVES !


    True, of course not. I never stated that he should. Still it is true that he only BELIEVES the statements he made are true, and that so far he failed to provide objective supporting evidence for his claims.

    Anyone here may from me make even the wildest religious claims and statements. And I am allowed every time I feel appropriate to mention that that is what it is : BELIEF AND NOTHING ELSE !!!

    Since when is it not allowed to state that here on the Discussion boards?

    :rolleyes:

    ·


    You still haven't answered my question which has been why you must emphasis that is what you believe? You CLAIM you do not do that but everybody can see you do.
    There are posts after posts where you point out that is what you believe it is not fact where is your objective support.
    We all agree that is what they believe so why keep pointing it out with a new reply to state that is what we believe.
    I have a feeling you do not want to answer the question and we are just going to keep going around and around about it.


    P.S. I don't care if you don't believe that when I was 2 years old and even older that I knew there was something more. I was never taught or told anything religious until I was around 12.
  • Jun 29, 2008, 06:30 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N0help4u
    You still haven't answered my question which has been why you must emphasis that is what you believe?

    My main theme here on Religious discussions is not what I believe, but the total lack of objective support for religious claims.
    And I see that you changed directions, now you realize that what Wangdoodle stated is what he believes, and that it is an example of circular argumentation : I believe it because I believe it...

    A LOGICAL "NO" "NO" !!!

    :D

    ·
  • Jun 29, 2008, 06:35 AM
    N0help4u
    I GUESS IT IS THE LANGUAGE BARRIER
    I NEVER changed directions I never said it was not wangdoodle believes
    I said it is a given that that is what HE BELIEVES and he does not have to STATE he believes it every time he (or any of us) states what we believe!
    Just as you state that atheism is not a religion. Religion is not a science it is a belief so why do you have to emphasis that is what you believe after people's posts?
    STILL waiting for you to answer:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
  • Jun 29, 2008, 06:58 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N0help4u
    I said it is a given that that is what he believes and he does not have to state he believes it every time he (or any of us) states what we believe!

    I disagree. Until there is objective supporting evidence for "God" to exist and be the "Creator", everything in Christianity is just nothing more than a lot of hot air that people BELIEVE in.

    You may believe from me whatever you want, but if you use what you believe as argument, you should add "I believe that" in front of that argument.

    It's as simple as that, and has nothing to do with language, but with logic and clarity of argumentation.

    :)

    ·
  • Jun 29, 2008, 07:03 AM
    N0help4u
    Well it is YOUR hang up because we all know that when we state our opinion we do not have to say this is my opinion or this is my belief. I know I will never add it to anything I say because I do not see the need to express my beliefs or opinions with I believe or my opinion is... Just like I do not see the need to distinguish I love you. There are at least 6 or 7 forms of love but I don't need to say to my kids or parents or friends I love you but not sexual love every time I tell them I love them

    GET OVER IT! :)
  • Jun 29, 2008, 07:13 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N0help4u
    Well it is YOUR hang up because we all know that ....

    Oh, you say you know... But do you also SHOW that properly ?
    All I see here at this board is loads of Christian babble and claims, but when it comes to showing real support for all that there only is icy silence...

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N0help4u
    There are at least 6 or 7 forms of love but I don't need to say to my kids or parents or friends I love you ...

    How WRONG you are on that ! You should say that often, but - even more important - you should show that in your deeds just as well (if not more even), because if you don't do it that way, your words become just another load of easy hot air.

    :rolleyes:

    ·
  • Jun 29, 2008, 07:19 AM
    N0help4u
    You must love 'babble and complains' cause you keep coming back for more.

    My statement WAS (before you dropped off the entire statement... There are at least 6 or 7 forms of love but I don't need to say to my kids or parents or friends 'I love you but not sexual love' every time I tell them I love them. All I have to do is say I love you and it goes without saying it is not a sexual love.
    So it is YOUR OPINION that I am WRONG!
  • Jun 29, 2008, 07:30 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N0help4u
    My statement WAS (before you dropped off the entire statement.....There are at least 6 or 7 forms of love but I don't need to say to my kids or parents or friends 'I love you but not sexual love' every time I tell them I love them. All I have to do is say I love you and it goes without saying it is not a sexual love.
    So it is YOUR OPINION that I am WRONG!

    My statement was not wrong. You just make your posts just too complicated as that suits your purpose.
    When we talk about love between people, that excludes logically sexual love, unless we express that part clearly.
    Love has to be expressed frequently, but not only in word, but just as well in deed.
    THAT is what I stated. Nothing else. That that does not suit you... that is your own problem, not mine...

    My option is to go to the beach now where lot's of sunshine and a nice breeze is awaiting me...
    Adios!

    :rolleyes:

    ·
  • Jun 29, 2008, 07:44 AM
    margog85
    Please, I didn't intend this to be a post for debate or arguments... I just wanted to know how people can believe in something they don't have conclusive evidence for... and if they do have evidence, what is it? How do they progress from feeling there is something more to understanding what that something more is and being confident about it, especially when there are so many ideas out there.

    That's all.
  • Jun 29, 2008, 08:02 AM
    f104
    If God was all loving and all powerful there would not be suffering. If God is a father he is abusive and cruel. What kind of father would let his children starve? The only way you can justify such evil is by saying 'we have free choice' which is BS. Again if you are a parent and your child wants to cut their hand off with a knife are you going to let them do? Of course not. So how the hell can you say a loving God would let the holocaust happen? If the devil is involved why does God not stop him? If God is all powerful he should be able to stop Satan.

    God is either all powerful and evil. Or he is not all powerful and loving. But no person in their right mind can say God is all powerful and loving but lets war happen because we choose to do so.
  • Jun 29, 2008, 08:03 AM
    N0help4u
    Sorry margog
    I think the only thing we can say is evidence is our deep conviction for the most part.

    You might like this link

    Science and the Bible
  • Jun 29, 2008, 11:24 AM
    Wangdoodle
    Yes, I made a statement that I believe to be true. I live my life as if my faith is true. If I did not believe it to be true I would live my life differently. There are a number of reasons as to why I believe in God. However, I have not seen Him face to face, so to speak. I referred to the Scriptures because I accept the testimony of those eye witnesses, and their willingness to die for their testimony. Many people believe they were liars. I do not.

    What the heck is faith all about? To me, it is about acting on what you believe to be true.
    Like driving my car. I do not know with 100% assurance that when I step on the breaks they will work. I have, however good reason to believe they will. So, I act on this believe and drive. If I did not believe my breaks would work, I would not drive the car. This is how the Apostles and the first century Christians lived their life. They had faith in Christ that he would welcome them into Heaven at the end of their earthly lives.
  • Jun 29, 2008, 12:17 PM
    Allheart
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by f104
    If God was all loving and all powerful there would not be suffering. If God is a father he is abusive and cruel. What kind of father would let his children starve? The only way you can justify such evil is by saying 'we have free choice' which is BS. Again if you are a parent and your child wants to cut their hand off with a knife are you going to let them do? Of course not. So how the hell can you say a loving God would let the holocaust happen? If the devil is involved why does God not stop him? If God is all powerful he should be able to stop Satan.

    God is either all powerful and evil. Or he is not all powerful and loving. But no person in their right mind can say God is all powerful and loving but lets war happen because we choose to do so.

    Hi f104 - Oh how the starving children weigh on my heart as well. But it is not God who allows it. It's you and I. Do I need as many clothes in my closet, or rooms in my house? NO, it's disgraceful on my part with so much hunger in the world. It's up to all of God's children to see that the hunger stops, that the war ceases. These things are not at God's hands but ours. Why doesn't God stop these things? He does and He will, once we enter His Kingdom, where there is no starvation or war or hatred or evil.

    If all negative would be wiped away with God's loving hands, this world would be endless, we would live forever on this earth, and earth is not where we ultimately are to be, we are to be home with Him.
  • Jun 29, 2008, 04:49 PM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    But it is not God who allows it. It's you and I.

    With all respect : based on the Christian "God" and it's powers and demands : if "God" does not want little children to suffer, than they would not suffer , no matter what adults would do.
    I assume the adults who mistreated the children would be annihilated on the spot.
    But they are not annihilated, and many children keep suffering. The following conclusions can be drown (any one of these is/can be valid) :

    - "God" does not have the power to annihilate those who do not follow his instructions.
    - "God" does not care about the children and their suffering.
    - "God" perhaps does not exist at all

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    Why doesn't God stop these things? He does and He will, once we enter His Kingdom, where there is no starvation or war or hatred or evil.

    That must be the worst clincher I have heard for days. Let's analyze this a little :

    "Why doesn't God stop these things?" : See 3 conclusions above.

    "He does and He will" : that is what you believe. But is it true? Why? You have any objective supporting evidence (OSE) for that ?

    "once we enter His Kingdom... " : how convenient : nobody will ever return to confirm or reject .....

    "where there is no starvation or war or hatred or evil" : that is what you believe. But is it true? You have any objective supporting evidence (OSE) for that ?

    4 different wild religious unsupported claims within one single A4 line sentence... Really...

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    If all negative would be wiped away with God's loving hands, this world would be endless, we would live forever on this earth, and earth is not where we ultimately are to be, we are to be home with Him.

    "God's loving hands" allow children to suffer, starve from hunger, die from disease and war, drown in flooding, be torn into pieces and eaten by wild animals, etc. What a loving hands that are... Where I agree with you is that every human being is co-guilty on that.
    That is precisely why I so often refer to every Christian's Mission, when it is here "word galore" but a "deed absence". The more some people THINK or HOPE they spread the word, the less they pass the word in their deeds...

    Oh boy !

    Allheart : you are kidding yourself with that... Are you so afraid for some hereafter and for some final judgment that you really believe all that cr*p ? I hardly can believe that you do... Have you lost all contact with reality ?

    :(

    ·
  • Jun 30, 2008, 12:37 AM
    Allheart
    LOL Cred, yeah reality really isn't my thing.

    No Cred, I do not fear the after life not one bit. You have no idea what great joy it brings me that some of my love ones have that eternal peace.

    Do I fear my losing entrance to the Kindgom of God - Yes I do. It's not a frightful fear,
    But it's something I do want in my heart to be with God and with my loved ones once again.

    You shouldn't think harsh of me because I believe with all my heart these things Cred. I am only sharing them with you. To be quite honest, that is my reality.
  • Jun 30, 2008, 02:23 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    I am only sharing them with you. To be quite honest, that is my reality.

    I tried not to be harsh on you, Allheart. Sorry if that appears to be that way to you.
    From me you may believe whatever suits you! But at least take the alternative (reality) also into option!

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    ...but it's something I do want in my heart to be with God and with my loved ones once again.

    I can't accept that it will ever happen, Allheart. Dead is dead. Another reason for me to be an active Secular Humanist, and someone who communicates with the for him dear ones to let them know I love them. When I lived in Africa my mother died, and I had a hard time to get to terms with that (... IF I had written, IF I had phoned, IF I had... ) That was a hard lesson for the rest of my life, and I (try to) transfer that lesson to all that are dear to me. And therefore also to you! :)

    You will never see anybody back, Allheart. You may believe that of course, but it won't bring them back in reality. Focus on what you can do now and on those who live now, and keep those who died with you in your heart.

    (Another suggestion : Add a directory with photo's of all of those that are dear to you to "Documents and settings". Go to configuration panel and set display protection of your monitor to 60 seconds. Switch to slide show the photos in that directory) Wonderful !

    :) :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

    ·
  • Jun 30, 2008, 03:19 AM
    N0help4u
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    From me you may believe whatever suits you!

    I can't accept that it will ever happen, Allheart. Dead is dead.

    :) :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

    ·

    From me you may believe whatever suits you. It doesn't matter what you accept.
    Stuff happens whether you accept it or not. When we die if you find out you are wrong
    You will not be able to say whether you accept it or not.
  • Jun 30, 2008, 03:32 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N0help4u
    When we die if you find out you are wrong you will not be able to say whether you accept it or not.

    As in so many times with similar responses I have stated: that is a clincher. There is no need for me to assume that possibility until the "hereafter" you believe in has been proved to exist in the first place... Pascal's wager has been dismissed many - MANY - years ago as an invalid proposition.

    :D

    ·
  • Jun 30, 2008, 03:41 AM
    N0help4u
    I am not talking about you assuming or not assuming or believing or not believing.
    I am talking end of life, you die, you find out there IS a hereafter.
    IF there is a hereafter it does not matter if you accept that or not
    IT WILL BE IF IT IS no matter what your thoughts or beliefs during your time on earth.
  • Jun 30, 2008, 03:57 AM
    Credendovidis
    1 Attachment(s)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N0help4u
    IF there is a hereafter it does not matter if you accept that or not

    Yes, sure. Than I better review my position towards eating pasta, as I have to be prepared to meet the Spaghetti monster also...

    :D :D :D :D :D

    ·
  • Jun 30, 2008, 07:46 AM
    asking
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    . . . I better review my position towards eating pasta, as I have to be prepared to meet the Spaghetti monster also ...

    :D :D :D :D :D

    ·

    And that's just the tip of the ice berg...
    :D
  • Jun 30, 2008, 08:55 AM
    shatteredsoul
    The interesting part is.. YOU don't know what happens after death and neither does anyone else. BECAUSE you choose to believe there is nothing after this life, then that is a choice, and thus your perception. It isn't based on facts because there is nothing proven that says what happens after you die. YES your body dies, but there is energy within you and what happens to it is unknown. People may call it a spirit, or whatever but nonetheless it is energy that lives within us. I have never assumed or expected everyone to agree with my Opinion or belief of what happens, I have always made clear what my own perspective is, while still being respectful and aware of the way others think.
    The sad part is, you mock and joke what you don't even understand. It really is ignorance at its best. I have never thought science or evolution, aren't real or true or even correct. I simply said that they don't have to exist without a realization of a greater force, energy, "GOD" or whatever you want to call it. They do not have to be mutually exclusive in order for each to exist.

    You are just as hung up on your way of thinking as a religious zealot.
    Whether you meet the spaghetti monster, or your creator is not something any of us will know or understand until it happens. JUST don't discount what you don't know because the energy that exists within everything living, GOES ON.. how that is interpreted and LABELED is different for each person.. THAT IS WHAT I mean.. I am not here to dispute scientific evidence but there are things that science cannot explain, universal mysteries of our solar system that cannot be explained, so don't think that your awareness of science and evolution explains everything because it doesn't. YOU just cannot think beyond it.
  • Jun 30, 2008, 08:59 AM
    N0help4u
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by shatteredsoul
    The interesting part is.. YOU don't know what happens after death and neither does anyone else. BECAUSE you choose to believe there is nothing after this life, then that is a choice, and thus your perception. It isn't based on facts because there is nothing proven that says what happens after you die. YES your body dies, but there is energy within you and what happens to it is unknown. People may call it a spirit, or whatever but nonetheless it is energy that lives within us. I have never assumed or expected everyone to agree with my PERSONAL opinion or belief of what happens, I have always made clear what my own perspective is, while still being respectful and aware of the way others think.
    The sad part is, you mock and joke what you don't even understand. It really is ignorance at its best. I have never thought science or evolution, aren't real or true or even correct. I simply said that they don't have to exist without a realization of a greater force, energy, "GOD" or whatever you want to call it. They do not have to be mutually exclusive in order for each to exist.

    You are just as hung up on your way of thinking as a religious zealot.
    Whether you meet the spaghetti monster, or your creator is not something any of us will know or understand til it happens. JUST don't discount what you don't know because the energy that exists withing everything living, GOES ON.. how that is interpreted and LABELED is different for each person.. THAT IS WHAT I mean.. I am not here to dispute scientific evidence but there are things that science cannot explain, universal mysteries of our solar system that cannot be explained, so don't think that your awareness of science and evolution explains everything because it doesn't. YOU just cannot think beyond it.


    EXACTLY!
    They have N0 concept on what if they are wrong and DO have to face a judgment day when it will be T00 late and N0 talking their way out of it with their arguments.
  • Jun 30, 2008, 12:38 PM
    ordinaryguy
    Margog85 (may I call you margo?)--

    Unless I missed it, you haven't said how old you are, but you remind me of my twentysomething self. I also was raised in the cocoon of The One True Church (different denomination, same concept), and found myself questioning and doubting more and more of what everybody around me accepted as being self-evidently true without comment, much less earnest discussion or soul searching.

    What I admire most in your post is the unflinching honesty with which you are confronting your loss of belief. It takes a lot of courage to leave the group and strike out on your own as an individual. It isn't an easy path, and I have sometimes almost (but not quite, not really) envied the friends of my youth who stayed within the cocoon and made a life and career completely enclosed and encased therein.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by margog85
    I used to REALLY believe that stuff... and now I REALLY don't. And I guess one of the main reasons is that I feel I need proof...

    As far as I've been able to learn (and I have a Ph.D. so you can trust me on this), mathematics is the only field of human endeavor where "proof" is a meaningful concept. Oh, sure, lawyers throw the term around a lot, but there's always some qualifier, "beyond a reasonable doubt", "by a preponderance of the evidence" or some such logically squishy concept.

    So if it's proof you really want, study mathematics. Everything else is inference and interpretation.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by margog85
    A lot of things have changed in my life since then, and I've become sort of... more realistic, I guess. More logical. I can't just believe something based on what I was raised to believe... I can't just believe something based on a feeling that could be influenced so easily by my own emotional needs... I can't just believe something based on what others tell me... I can't just believe that a book which was written by people thousands of years ago was 'inspired by' a god that I can't prove exists...

    If you can't, you can't, so stop wasting your effort and attention trying to do the impossible. Accept it, and let it go. There are far more useful things to do with your mind than worry over your inability to believe. I tend to think the difference between people in this regard is either genetic or very early (embryonic) developmental. Some brains are wired that way, some aren't. It can't be helped.

    Quote:

    I feel like... there's something else out there. Some sort of force or energy that everything comes from... I have no way of validating that belief either, and maybe that's just my own hope for something more, more than even a 'belief' in something...
    There you go reminding me of myself again. Maybe we both have kind of a minimalist transcendental mind function. It seems like it would be much easier to either have none at all, or else to be fully connected. This having one foot on either side of the crack between the worlds can be unnerving, I'll vouch for that.
    Quote:

    But let's just take for granted that there's SOMETHING or SOMEONE out there... How, then, do we figure out what that something else is, what it/he/she is like?
    Speaking only for myself, I have decided to treat this as is a problem that doesn't need to be solved.
    Quote:

    I just don't understand how people can believe something so strongly, with so many specifics.
    Either they have a personal subjective conviction, (which you obviously don't have) or they take somebody else's word for it (which you apparently can't do). It's one of the many ways people differ from one another. People who would kind of, almost, like to believe the prevailing myths of their culture, but can't really, have probably existed nearly universally, but always as a minority, except possibly during times of great social upheaval.
    Quote:

    I can't even get to the point where I can undertand whatever 'energy' is out there (call it god, whatever... just that something else that is behind what we can see)... and I feel like if I'm going to understand what else is out there, I need to understand it in logical steps. Not just a 'feeling' or beliefs based on a book that I can't confirm to be more than just the unfounded beliefs of others thousands of years ago...
    I would suggest that you reexamine your assumption that whatever-it-is is "out there" and fully approachable by means of observation and reason.

    Your will directs your attention. Whether you direct your attention toward the inward, subjective realm, or into the outward, objective world, you will eventually encounter the boundary between Self and Not-Self.

    Like every boundary, it's fuzzy if you examine it closely enough.

    I wish you godspeed on your quest.

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