Most of the time it's not a choice. If it is, when did you choose to be heterosexual?Quote:
Originally Posted by erin7799
And it's not a "lifestyle." The rich and famous have lifestyles.
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Most of the time it's not a choice. If it is, when did you choose to be heterosexual?Quote:
Originally Posted by erin7799
And it's not a "lifestyle." The rich and famous have lifestyles.
Everything we do is by choice. Every time I've been hit on by a woman and I turned her down I was making a choice. Just because we feel a certain way doesn't mean that we act on our feelings. The majority of the gay people that I know and/or have known in my life have all been straight before they "turned" gay. Now this it out of their mouths not my own. It is absolutely a lifestyle. Ask my gay friends. They'll be the first to tell you. We've had this conversation before. And if it's not a lifestyle would you say it's a "culture"?
So you've chosen to be straight? You aren't hotwired to be straight? If you make a choice, that means you are at first undecided about at least two things, in this case gay or straight, but straight has won out (so far). Maybe next week you will choose to be gay.Quote:
Originally Posted by erin7799
When someone hits on you, you aren't choosing to be gay or not; you are avoiding a certain behavior.
Interesting friends you have. My gay friends always knew they were attracted to the same gender, but society said no to that, so for a long time they hid how they felt.Quote:
Originally Posted by erin7799
What is being a heterosexual? A culture?Quote:
would you say it's a "culture"?
Erin7799-
I appreciate your posts, and since you said you didn't mean offense by what you said, I will not take it in that way. I suppose it is hard for someone who is not gay to really understand the importance of things like a gay pride parade to the gay community.
You said that you don't have a 'straight pride parade'- but, from my perspective, every day is straight pride day- you can be with your boyfriend or husband and not have people look at you like you're disgusting- you're, most of the time, typically surrounded by people who are straight like you.
I don't have that kind of life.
If you walk down the street holding hands with your boyfriend, no one even turns their heads. I walk down the street holding hands with my girlfriend, and I'm a spectacle.
You were raised in a world where being straight was 'normal' and so was I. For you, that was no big deal, because you were straight. For me, it was a big deal, because I felt like I just never quite fit right. I couldn't really put it together at an early age- any feelings I had I dismissed, and tried to live 'normally'- but that wasn't 'normal' for me. I was a triangle trying to fit myself into a square hole- so I went through much of my life before I came out as a 'straight' girl- everyone is presumed 'straight' by default- and so since that's the label that we're given, that's the label we attempt to embrace before we realize that it's not who we are. Maybe that's what your gay friends mean- I know I have gay friends who say that they 'turned' gay jokingly- so you might want to clarify that.
Everyone has a different experience, of course. But the majority are probably not prone to saying or feeling that they just decided to be gay, or that they used to be totally straight and one day just changed their minds. Again, being straight, you may not understand that- but I assure you, that is 99% of the time the reality.
As far as your statement that you don't have a 'straight' pride parade, because if you did you'd be considered 'racist'--- that's because straights are not and never have been an oppressed group. When you spend your life trying to be someone you're not, and find people criticizing and abandoning you because of who you are, you really do look forward to the boost of confidence that you get from being around other people like you, and being proud of who you are, regardless of what other people think. It's like... like you've been caged in all your life, and every day you have to be cautious of who's around you, who 'knows' about you, what other people are thinking or saying behind your back--- and it's not just the petty stuff that everyone else deals with, because I know everyone has to deal with judgment to some degree on a daily basis. But it's a judgment not of what you wear, who you talk to, what your hair looks like, how many pounds you need to lose- it's a judgment of an unchangeable part of WHO YOU ARE, and it hurts on a level that can't really be explained to people who haven't experienced it.
And then you have this one day every year, in some places a whole week, where you can let your hair down, relax, and celebrate- be who you are and be proud of who you are, when you spent so much of your life trying to hide it and convince people that you're 'not-so-bad'- a day where you can feel confident that you're just as good as anybody else, and just as deserving of respect. Where you can hold hands with the person you love and share your life with without being singled out as 'one-of-them-gay-couples'- cause they're everywhere.
I'm at work and I'm sure my thoughts are scattered, and I'm not sure if I addressed everything you mentioned in your posts. But please let me know if that helps clarify a bit- I'd be happy to answer any other questions you might have.
Peace.
See your own post #31 and my post #34. If that was not clear to you, nothing is...Quote:
Originally Posted by erin7799
:rolleyes:
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Margog85- I don't ever mean to offend or hurt anyone and my actions in my life certainly suggest just that because I feel so badly if I do. When your on a board like this it's hard to "talk" to people because you can't hear a tone of voice and things that are being typed can be misleading in how we're trying to get them to come across. I try to understand. Just because I don't think it's right doesn't necessarily mean that I am going to snub my nose at you or ridicule you in public or private. Sometimes it gets so frustrating when you deal with prejudice on any level. I've dealt with it quite a bit like I said for being white, straight and woman. I get frustrated when situations occur like when my brother who is a "genius" was passed over an internship in college because he was white. They flat out told him that they needed so many "non-white" students. And even though he was far more qualified he didn't get the position. But they've made it in this country that no one is equal. Everyone wants special treatment and those who work hard and do what they need to do in life get pooped on. You're right. We all go through things and no... I can't imagine walking down the street and being gawked at for holding my loved ones hand. Funny thing is I would never gawk and make faces because it's none of my business. That's where I feel as though my actions do not qualify me for being intolerant. Do what you do, just because I don't agree with it doesn't mean that I am going to be hateful towards you. Nothing that I show, say or do on the outside makes me intolerant of you being gay. Only one time ever and that was on here did I ever come forward and finally say... "Hey... Why is it this way?" Because I opened up about it doesn't make me intolerant. I guess when people do things like the parades and such it's a huge attention getting deal. And there's nothing peaceful about it. You know there's going to be some kind of backlash from it. It's just the way people are. Someone has to stir the pot. I was just wondering why do certain people get to celebrate and others would be looked at as being racist against others if they did so? Because no matter what anyone says about that how would you feel? What if someone did organize a hetero parade? You'd assume there was some malicious intent behind it. Or if someone had a white pride parade... and I'm not talking kkk or anything like that. Just a happy celebration of who we are. People wouldn't stand for that. What I was trying to say was that people have a tendency to segregate themselves. Gay, straight, black, white, hispanic. We do. How can everyone live together in peace? In my silly mind I guess I always thought that people should just be happy, no one should hurt anyone and that's just the way it should be. Like I said, I've never brought this up before because the LAST thing I want to do is hurt you or anyone else. I knew that this discussion would get some people bashing me or telling me that I was wrong but like I said before we could go in circles about this forever. Someone will always think the other is wrong. Religion, Politics and now homosexuality. Things that you just can't argue. It never ends. I was told that something I said was violent when if you would've heard how it was coming out in my head, there was nothing violent about it. That's just it. You assume that we shouldn't celebrate who we are because we're straight and that's "normal". A lot of times people in this country bend over backwards to make sure that they don't offend "minorities". Unless that is, if you're white or christian. I've seen on t.v. where mexicans and black people can make fun of white people and call them names because haha that's funny. Yet at the same time a white person could never, ever make fun for the sake of t.v. because it would be racist and someone at some point they would have to come out with a public apology because they offeded someone. I just don't understand why things are OK for some people and not others. That's all. But I liked getting a message directly from you because I thought it was you who I was talking to you anyway not realizing I was going to hear from everyone else. Like I said I had never done this before. I am just going to have to leave it as no... I'll never understand. And some of these people will never understand me and what it is that I am tryint to say or the questions that I've had. And that's fine. I was just thinking of this lady that I used to work with. She was amazing. She was a lesbian and I loved her! She could quote the bible like nobodies business. She was always there for me and she gave the best hugs! Just an example of someone I knew and I never looked down on her because she had a girlfriend. I loved her for her. I don't know. Just because I don't understand doesn't make me a bad person. Doesn't make me hateful, intolerant or discriminating. It's just that I don't get it.
margog85, I wanted to thank you. Perhaps you wrote your last post while distracted at work but it came out as clear as bell ringing. For the first time I may understand what it's like to be gay. I grew up the victim of political abuse. Your explanation of the ostracism of being "different," and having to hide who and what you are explained how I've always felt. Thank You for putting it into words.
erin7799, you have so much balance and compassion for other humans. Keep it up.
Margog:Quote:
Originally Posted by margog85
Thank you for expressing how you feel, it helps me see your point of view. ;)
Simone--Quote:
Originally Posted by simoneaugie
I'm interested in what this means, if you don't mind sharing. I grew up in a very insular fundamentalist Christian subculture that fostered a sense of being separate and different, and a longing to be persecuted for it, though in actuality we weren't. Ordinary people just thought we were kind of weird, which of course we were. I still remember the sense of relief I felt when it dawned on me that there's really no US and THEM, that we're all just people.
I think many people make choices in life. That is, to get married, go to college, have kids and raise a family. People also make a choice to give in to their feelings towards someone of the same sex, or not. THAT doesn't mean that the attraction is a choice, but how we respond to it is. I think many people struggle with wanting a "regular life" and to be like everyone else. Some people want a traditional family and maybe don't want to give in to their sexual desires. BUT the desire isn't a choice, it just is. Thus, you cannot judge what someone feels, even if you have an opinion on how they live that out.
Being gay isn't something anyone wants to be or chooses.. unless they are just wanting to shock and entice people.. MOST of the time it is a realization of an attraction and desire to be with someone of the same sex and not being sure how to frame that. It takes some people their whole lives of being married and having kids, and then realizing they are not being true to themselves and they must be free of the chains they feel are keeping them from the life they DESIRE..
Look, my mom was a nun, married to my dad for twelve years and THEN came out as a gay women. It was the 80's and it wasn't easy to deal with, admit or acknowledge at that time. I don't think anyone could have TURNED her gay, but maybe made her realize that SHE couldn't deny who she was anymore, despite her CAtholic conservative parents, or her angry and embarrassed teenage children. IT sometimes overtakes you and you must let it out and face the music.
IT Isn't a choice to be gay, but I think living out the gay lifestyle is choice and not an easy one. There is still prejudiced people and ways that they are treated unfairly. This is why people feel the need to speak out, be proud and shout it in the streets.
Yes it makes some uncomfortable. HOWEVER, there is not the same need to feel validated for heterosexuals as there is for those that are homosexual. Heterosexuality and patriarchy has dominated and controlled this society, as well as many others throughout history and anything veering from that is seen as inappropriate, unnecessary and to many, unethical and immoral. THAT IS how we have kept the nuclear family together, by supporting and protecting marriage through religion and patriarchal laws. THat is the truth whether you agree with it or like it isn't really the issue.
So, do I think Homosexuality is a choice? NO.. But living it out as your truth and your difference.. ABSOLUTELY IS.
I'm not going to argue with anyone about how they feel. Some subjects can't be touched. It's a never ending discussion. But that certainly doesn't mean I don't like homosexuals as people. I just don't agree with it. That's my opinion, you have yours and that's what makes us all so great. If we all agreed all the time life would be boring. More peaceful, certainly. But boring. Thank you all for your arguments, your insight and margog85... keep on keepin' on. You're a person that everyone could learn something from.
God Bless :)
It's nothing to agree or disagree with. No one is taking votes on it. It just is.Quote:
Originally Posted by erin7799
If heterosexuals "turned" to be homosexual, then they all can easily return to heterosexuality. Why don't they?
I've seen gay pride parades before and it is the gays who are offensively dressed (if they are dressed at all) and it is the gays who carry offensive signs with offensive literature.Quote:
Originally Posted by margog85
The question can easily be asked of you. Why do you feel that gays may impose their beliefs on others?Quote:
While I understand that homosexuality may be against the religious beliefs of some individuals, I fail to understand a number of things. Firstly, since when is it okay to believe that the religious morals of a group can be imposed upon those who don't share those same beliefs?
If following a parade with megaphones and signs is imposition of beliefs, what is the parade itself?
Seems to me that you are simply angered by freedom of expression when the ideas being expressed are not those with which you agree.
The rest of your post can be ignored. It is simply a rant from someone who wants all people to agree with her views.Quote:
If you believe that being gay is immoral, don't be gay...
If you live in the USA, the Constitution gives you the right to express what you believe is right and what you believe is wrong.
If you believe that homosexuality is right, then you don't have to be a homosexual to believe so. Simply hold your belief.
As for me, I believe it is wrong. And I reserve the right to say so whenever I wish. It is my right guaranteed by the Constitution.
No you don't. The largest part of your message is simply a rant against those who don't believe what you believe. And we've had this discussion before anyway.Quote:
I would really love to get some feedback/thoughts on this and have a discussion about it. Any takers?
Sincerely,
De Maria
Why would they ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
:rolleyes:
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I can't seem to stop myself. If a woman and a woman were meant to be together, then why do they need a man to have a child? And vice versa?
De Maria : Thank You! You said what I was trying to say. People get offended when they think that a christian/heterosexual, etc... is trying to impose their beliefs onto them by not agreeing with what they're doing. Yet, it's OK to impose what they believe to be right onto us. And society is far more accepting of them by silencing us and allowing them to run the city for a day. Though they choose not to see it that way.
Who runs the city for the other 364 days?Quote:
Originally Posted by erin7799
You do realize that women DON'T need men to have children anymore. Just their seed. And vice versa. There's artificial insimination, there's surrogates, and adoption.Quote:
Originally Posted by erin7799
I realize this. But the WOMAN still needs the MAN in order to do this. You know what I'm saying. The woman cannot ]on her own have a child. And vice versa. It's artificially done. Not naturally.
And everyone shares the city for the other 364.
No, she needs his seed. Not him. So, by this theory are you against c-section and/or epedoral during birth because it's artificial and not natural? That's not a good argument for someone's life.Quote:
Originally Posted by erin7799
Without HIM there is no SEED. So technically, there is a HIM out there somewhere that SHE NEEDS. Because she needs something from HIM in order to make it happen.
Were you serious about the whole c-section and epidural comment? Now you're just getting silly. Those are two totally different "un-naturals". How you need a man to conceive and having an epidural?
Yes, but she does not need him as a person in her life. Do you understand what I'm trying to say to you? Men don't need women (in their life or relationship) in order to have children. And same for women. And please, spare me the lecture about gay parents raising gay children, because I'm sure you believe that as well.
You were the one arguing what's natural and unnatural. If you diagree with anything "unnatural" then you can't be prejudice. It's all or nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by erin7799
Was I lecturing you about gay parenting? Nope. Never brought it up. So today was your lucky day! I was a single mother for a long time. I had no men in my life. I know you don't need a man to parent. Conception. That's what I'm talking about. Nor did I say that homosexuals aren't good parents. Just because I don't believe in who they choose to sleep with doesn't mean I think they're bad parents. Or people in general. I just have a hard time thinking that it's OK.
This is why I said I was done with this. Because I feel the way that I do, you're going to argue that I'm wrong. Me and everyone else who believes that homosexuality is wrong. I kept trying to unsubscribe to this stupid post and it keeps emailing it to me and the temptation is too much! But why is it that it's not OK for me to feel that way? Why is it OK for you to feel the way that you do? If I'm not right then are you? And what makes you right then and not me?
Fortunately they don't need you approving of who they choose to sleep with, as you don't need their approval of who you choose to sleep with. Just because you don't think its OK, doesn't mean that it's wrong. I don't think having a child outside of marriage is OK, but does that mean that it's wrong? No. I was conceived outside marriage.
There is no right and wrong on opinions, if you can't unsubscribe, email curlyben and ask him for help.Quote:
Originally Posted by erin7799
Offensive signs? Like 'marriage now?' and 'my family deserves equal rights'? And what offensive literature? Such as.. And as I've said before, it's a parade, a celebration... look at Mardi Gras... Fat Tuesday... a celebration before the holy season of Lent- is that something completely pure? I think not.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
No one is imposing their beliefs by having a parade. The parade, as I've said before if you read the entire thread before posting, is a celebration of who we are and a commemoration of the Stone Wall riots of the 60's.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
[QUOTE=De Maria}The rest of your post can be ignored. It is simply a rant from someone who wants all people to agree with her views.[/QUOTE]
You cannot ignore what you disagree with. It is not a rant, I was expressing how I felt, looking for feedback from others and a discussion, and that is what has been going on here. Your confrontational, condescending, and argumentative tone are not welcome on this thread. I've been very open and honest about how I feel here- and other people have recognized that and been appreciative of the open dialogue. Please do not come here and try to stir something up.
You can express it, I'm not saying that you can't. Again, if you read what I wrote, I didn't say they didn't have the right to do so- but that it seemed like more of a self-righteous effort than one truly concerned with 'saving' anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
I don't understand what you mean by 'if you believe that homosexuality is right, then you don't have to be a homosexual to believe so'- no one ever said anyone had to be gay- what are you talking about here?
You can say what you like when you wish, no one said you should be deprived of the ability to do so. But realize that it hurts people who do not deserve to be hurt, that it is inappropriate in certain situations, and that although you may have the 'right' to say what you wish, it doesn't mean you should.
Again, not just a rant, and I am offended that you would reduce my emotions and my attempt to share what I'm thinking/feeling about something that is important to me to a 'rant' that doesn't deserve anyone to pay anymind. That cannot be the 'christian' way, can it?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
De Maria, your negativity is not welcome here- please change your tone, or start your own thread. This IS a discussion- again, if you read the entire post before interjecting your 2 cents, you'd see that.
Actually they're quickly coming to the point where they don't need sperm but just joining eggs. Only drawback (?) is that all the ofspring would be female.Quote:
Originally Posted by erin7799
But this is besides the point. Homosexuals are a legitimate minority. The same app 10% rate occurs in all 'races' and even in the animal world. I submit that it is, therefore, 'natural,' just different. If it was so against God's plan, why would he make homosexual animals since they don't have a sense of so-called morality?
So the point is that they aren't trying to 'impose' but merely be recognized as a minority denied the same civil rights as most others. They're just more flamboyant about it than other groups seeking the same thing.
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Ok. Live Well, All! :)
I really think you should take your own advice for your religious views. Why do you assume that when two people of the same sex are together that it's all for perverted sex? Why is it wrong for two people who truly love each other to be together? What makes you think that because YOU believe something that you have the right to influence other people's lives? Why waste your time on something that's NEVER going to change? People can't change WHO they are and what they feel!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Just look at the evidence! I'm seen so much research that disproves the fact that being gay is a choice. Even in the studies of hardcore catholics that force people into being straight have loop-holes.
Believe what you want to believe, live the way you want to live, but NEVER think that you can decide for others.
Excellent response ! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by rockerchick_682
Hear , hear , hear!!Quote:
Originally Posted by rockerchick_682
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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One’s sexual life is a private matter, whether you chose to be gay or not. So, why do gays like to advertise it? Why do many gay women try to look, dress, walk and act like men?
However, it is my belief :rolleyes:that gay people are demon possessed, just my opinion, based on my belief in the Holy Bible. And, it is in the New Testament:
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Believe what you want to believe, live the way you want to live, but don't try to make others approve of it by acting so perverted. That's not the way to win friends and influence people. $0.2
Hear hear hear:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Ah yes, "the devil made them do it" - that certainly absolves one from personal responsibity.
No, they were tempted and fell. No excuse. They could repent and be saved. Repent means to stop what you are doing and go the other way. The devil can't make anyone do anything unless they are willing to follow him.
Well, if that's the case then fine, but isn't lusting after someone just as much a sin? SO, if a homosexual repents and says "I'm not going to be gay anymore", he's okay? He's saved? But he'll be thinking it, all the time. It's who he is. He didn't choose to be this way, he was born this way. He will be attracted to, have thoughts of men, and fantasies. So, really, what's the point of apologizing to God for being born the way he was?
But you said the were "demon possesed", that doesn't sound like someone doing something willfully.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
So you would agree that straight people also advertise being straight by dressing the way they do.
Gay people dress the way they do because that's how they WANT to dress, not to advertise themselves.
So if people advertise their sexuality by the way they dress, and you believe they should hide, then why doesn't every straight person in the world dress like a gay person to hide their preferences. Why doesn't every priest in the world goth it up and throw on some anarchy symbols!
This is so ridiculous! UGH!. I need some bubble wrap
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