Hmmmm... Between my legs hangs a "Glockenspiel".Quote:
Originally Posted by wildandblue
:D
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Hmmmm... Between my legs hangs a "Glockenspiel".Quote:
Originally Posted by wildandblue
:D
OOpsie.
Don't kick me there, please...Quote:
Originally Posted by wildandblue
LOL
:D
Your smilies indicate that you have written this in good faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by Choux
I'll respond in good faith.
I understand that management told you that you could have discussion with religionists and atheists on this board. But they didn't say you had free reign to insult Christians on this board, did they?
There are ways to speak to people. If you personally don't believe in God that is your prerogative. However, your previous message declared that believing Christians were immature unless they left behind their faith in God. In other words, you called me immature. That's an insult.
Here is what you said, and I quote:
So, if you want to have a polite discussion, you don't have to agree with us and you don't need to add smilies to your message, just speak to us with respect.Quote:
This is the twenty-first century... a "mature Christian" is now a Christian who has matured enough to reject the supernatural as childish nonsense from antiquity and take up Secular Humanism.
Otherwise you will get what you dish out.
Peace :)
Sincerely,
De Maria
Awesome!Quote:
Originally Posted by wildandblue
Your last thought
So I try to make any passing thoughts God might have about me,his child, hopefully good ones
Comes mighty close to a Christian devotion known as "the Presence of God".
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Presence of God
Sincerely,
De Maria
De Maria thanks for all your thoughts and input. Credo is just ticked off cause I butted in to one of his other arguments he was having with someone else. Told him his precious science, theory of relativity can prove the Earth was created in 7 days. He is super smart, which automatically makes him hard to get along with... God wants us either hot or cold, not lukewarm! He will hate me but I am praying for him. That's OK I've been hated by some of the best. Like water off a duck's back.
Lol!! I love your attitude!Quote:
Originally Posted by wildandblue
1 Thessalonians 2 6 Nor sought we glory of men,.
You have proven yourself to be quite adept at responding in kind to perceived insults, but I'm wondering how you reconcile that attitude with the following scriptural injunctions?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Quote:
"Do not return evil with evil, or insults with insults." I Peter 3:9
"A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger." Proverbs 15:1
"Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which spitefully use you." Luke 6:28
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth', but I say to you do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." Matthew 5:38-39
Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
Amen OG. And that is all I have been trying to explain or share with DeMaria and I get called a hyprocriate - that I truly don't love God or my fellow man.
I love this post OG -
Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
Thanks for the question. And its fair. I've wondered about it myself sometimes. In fact, when I first started on the internet, I believed I should not argue with anyone. I would take insult after insult believing this was what Jesus taught. But since my debating took me deeper and deeper into the Scriptures and into knowledge of my faith, I began to notice that neither Jesus, nor St. Paul, nor St. James seemed to understand that teaching to mean that we must become wall flowers.Quote:
Quote:
"Do not return evil with evil, or insults with insults." I Peter 3:9
"A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger." Proverbs 15:1
"Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which spitefully use you." Luke 6:28
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth', but I say to you do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." Matthew 5:38-39
For instance, Jesus frequently spoke harshly to the Pharisees:
Matthew 23 13 But woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites;
And St. Paul spoke the same way:
Galatians 3 1 O senseless Galatians,
1 Corinthians 15 36 Senseless man,
And there are many others, but I'm writing in a hurry. Also, St. Louis de Montfort would BEAT UP hecklers when he preached in the center of town.
So, being a Christian does not mean to be a pansy. And those Scriptures, in my opinion, don't mean we should not defend ourselves. What they mean is when a discussion is reduced to insults with no intelligent content, then it is time to stop.
After I discovered this in the Scriptures, I also noticed that the Christian apologists who got more respect, did not permit others to insult them. It appeared that those who permitted others to insult them simply lost everyone's respect.
So I adjusted my thinking. I now go where "they" are. If I believe, that the person is worth talking to, I will take on the insult and fight through it until it is time to shake the dust off my feet. In other words, until I believe that the person is not worth talking to.
After many years of debating, I've come to believe this is the most effective course. There is such a thing as righteous anger.
I hope that answers your question.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Yes, I suppose it does. It doesn't surprise me. You claim to revere the Bible but manage to rationalize attitudes that are diametrically opposed to the plain meaning of what it actually says. If it's respect you want, that's not the way to get it, at least from me.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
I have the utmost respect for your religious beliefs and attitudes. It's interesting to me that both you and De Maria are Catholic, but you come across as different as night and day in your interactions with others on matters of faith. It confirms my belief that the essence of religion has little or nothing to do with church affiliation or doctrine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allheart
To me a mature Christian is one that has learned not to waiver in their faith.
They have learned not to be arrogant or playing the Holy Spirit like whatever they say is the gospel truth. They are not wanting to run the church function like their way is THE way and pouting, gossiping or criticizing others that do not go along with THEIR way. Often many Christians THINK they are doing God's will when in actuality they are sabotaging it.
A mature Christian has learned to discern things and how to be in synchronicity and peace with where they are suppose to be in life. They have a real freedom apart from religious squabbles.
I am blessed to know quite a few Christians that I can say I believe they are very real Christians.
Some well known by some Christians are
Bill Wilson Home
Phil keaggy p h i l k e a g g y . c o m
B. E. Taylor B.E. Taylor - The Official Site
This is a really good CD set
- MetroMinistries.org
I am not ticked off at all. I only found your earlier comments rather simplistic and invalid. I even added a post to bring in some humor...Quote:
Originally Posted by wildandblue
Which - lacking any reaction - you clearly seem to have failed to cope with !
All that is correct in your post is that I am indeed smart. Is that a problem for you ?
:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :D
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I revere the entire Bible. I don't pick certain verses which I then twist to change the meaning of Jesus' message.Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
Actually, of the non-Christians on this forum, you're about the most pleasant with whom to hold a discussion. So, as long as you keep a respectful tone in your messages, I don't care if you respect me or my beliefs.Quote:
If it's respect you want, that's not the way to get it, at least from me.
But if you begin to get insulting, you know what to expect in return.
Bye.
That is not true and honest : most of your posts are full of twisting words, sentences, and complete meanings of what was posted earlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Also your posts do not reflect the goal and intention of the Christian mission : "go forth and spread the word" (not only in your words, but specially in your attitude and deeds). You and your attitude on this board have already done more harm to Christianity than an army of angry atheists ever could achieve - if they wanted to do so.
:D
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Yes, I would expect you to disregard the teaching of both Jesus and St. Peter and return insults for insults.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
DeMaria,
This is exactly what I was trying to communicate to you. How does the above demonstrate a loving follower of Christ.
Any good that may be in your messages, is lost with this type of thinking.
I did try to respond to your last PM, but when I hit send, it blinked away. I took it as the will of God. I truly did.
There should be no harshness amongst those who believe or even amongst those who don't believe.
You may think I trade the praise of man for being in favor in God's eyes, but as I told you in my PM back to you, that could not be further from the truth. In life, my thoughts, heart,
And viewpoints, usually make me stand alone and it's where I choose to stay, for I would not change what I believe in my heart for anyone's approval, except Gods.
I mean this with all sincerity, I wish you great joy and pray that love touches your heart
And surrounds you.
May you see the good in people as well as areas that may need improvement and share God's word and love, in a way that will bring others to Him.
And may you no longer judge me wrongly and may I not do the same of you.
Allheart.
Wow I can't believe there are 57 answers to this question... where was I? Well if you guys expect courteous people on the internet, don't hold your breath, what's that John the Baptist used to say, the people nice to look at are in the palaces not in the wilderness-- I guess you have to pick your battles, or like they say when arguing about a subject, "what some people don't know, you can't tell them." so it does no good to get riled up. Credendovis I haven't forgotten you I'm just a bit busy right now a newborn grandchild just got dropped off in our laps and I'm head cook and bottle washer right now. But lucky for you I can feed infants and pray at the same time!
Not sure where all these ideas of a Christian not getting upset and not having their say comes from. For example we are to correct people when they are not correct and if they still don't correct we are to drag them in front of witnesses to correct them and then latter in front of the entire church latter. Also there are many things, that non informed or non christians often don't understand, such as turning the other cheek, which is an insult to the person, since it shows we are expecting them to back hand , which is a disgrace, since we are saying that they are the type of person who would backhand us, which is a sign of disgrace. Even to wiping our shoes off at their door which is a sign of disgust with them.
And we are even told not to let the sun go down on our anger, it does not tell us not to get angry even, only not to go to bed angry.
And of course the early disciples would go out and preach even against government orders since they knew they had to do Gods will over any order not to preach here or there.
And I remember Christ calling the temple priests a pit of vipers and throwing out the money lenders.
So I think people need to get the silly idea of christians just being abused and not standing up and holding ground, since it is only the non christian that wants to weaken the faith of the chistian
Congrats to you and the rest of the family. I hope everything is OK.Quote:
Originally Posted by wildandblue
;)
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No, that wasn't even her point. Psa 91:11 For He shall give His angels charge over thee to keep thee, they shall bear thee up lest thou dash thy foot against a stone. She said she felt like her feet were not even touching the ground. The angels were on the job taking care of her.Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
I like the saying: if the devil isn't coming against you, it's because you're walking the same way.
Well maybe I've got my answer in Ezekiel 34. I love to do lists:
Strenthen the weak
Heal the sick
Bind up the injured
Bring back the strayed
Seek the lost.
Now if you all will excuse me I'm going to go in and knock back an ice cold bottle of milk before I get started.
Thanks! My wife and I say that country song by Martina McBride, Wild Angels is our theme song. "It must have been hard, it must have been tough, keeping up with crazy fools like us":rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
Her point was:Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
My point was that if coming through a car wreck unscathed is a reason to believe in God, surely having no wreck at all would be an even better reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by wildandblue
Surely you aren't saying that the lack of accidents in my life is evidence that I'm walking with the devil?Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
It just seems to me foolish and misguided to suppose that the health and safety of our physical body is any indication of God's existence or love for us. Sooner or later we all die as a result of accident or illness.
Well, guys I badly wanted a new car, was driving a 12 year old one. Everywhere I went I saw everybody else with shiny new ones. Why not me? I was working 3 jobs and couldn't get ahead. Then the car wreck happened on a foggy morning before sunrise. I didn't have collision on a 12 year old car, had to drive for a week on one of those donut spare tires till I could get a replacement. It was 20 below zero but I pulled the sheetmetal off the car and pounded it back out. If people where thinking my car looked bad before, let me tell you. Then my plant closed and I was out of a job, they'd even raided our pension funds.. No money, no job, no car to go and look for another one. But one short year later I had a new and better job and I actually walked in to the dealer and drove myself a new car right off the showroom floor. See, if God had caved, did what I want when I wanted it, I would have wrecked the new car back then! But He stuck to The Plan, which was much better than my idea.
??Quote:
Originally Posted by wildandblue
What is that for extreme subjective argument ? You got a new job because there was a job available, you applied for it, and you got it.
And because you had a new and even better job, you could go to a showroom and get yourself a new car.
But what has that to do with the claim to the existence of a deity called "God" being the "Creator"?
:confused:
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You have just been lucky ! No deities involved !Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
Spot on ! And nothing that can be done about that !Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
:rolleyes:
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I completely agree with OG, that you shouldn't attribute health, good health, as a sign that God exist. It can in some circumstances, but what about those beautiful people stricken with cancer, or those beautiful starving children, is God not right there by their side?
I also agree with Wildandblue, that if you give God the keys, to the car of life, His loving plan for you, will guide you.
As OG so wonderfully stated, we all, sadly will be stricken with some illness or circumstance that will cease our life on this earth, but it is my belief, that God will make that difficult road, much easier.
God carried me through my whole childhood. I remember sitting on the edge of the bed, feet didn't even touch the ground, and smiling and praying, knowing that God was right there with me and would continue to be with me and get me through a great difficulty that I knew was only minutes away.
For me, the proof that some seek, is all around, it's what the eyes behold and the heart sees, that helps one to believe.
I know some say there life is just fine without the believing that there is a God, and would be willing to believe once they obtain proof, but that is the wonder of God. It is my belief, that if one would open their eyes and see God's love, they would understand the glorious gifts they now enjoy are sent from above, and would be even that more precious to behold.
I wish I had the words that would help others to see, not to force my view, but so others are not left out in a place that they don't have to be. But I don't have the words, or the proof that some seek. I just have prayers that all will find their way, and keep me on the right path to our Loving Father.
I can only share with all of you, that when I try and run this life by myself, it never seems to work out too well, but when I give those keys over to God, the road is so much easier.
I'm saying that if God had given me that new car when I first brought the subject up with Him, the car I wrecked on that hill would have been the new car, which I would have gotten just before losing my job. But He knew this and didn't give it to me then. He decided, no, let's let that person hit you in the old car, it's junk anyway, no big loss. All He wanted was for me to survive that accident, possessions aren't that important to Him. I was meant to save a friend a few years later, as I already said. I had prayed for him for about 40 years and after his accident he was a changed person, and I can tell you that a few years after that at the end of his life he accepted Christ although he'd been alienated from Him for most of his life.
That sounds like the argument used by the Ugandan soldier driving the truck that hit my car while I was waiting in front of a red robot, waiting patiently for it to change green.Quote:
Originally Posted by wildandblue
He stated : "the accident was your fault, because if you had not come to Uganda, and stand here, I could never have hit you"...
W+B : that argument is of the same logic and quality as yours...
:rolleyes:
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But it is exactly that, you find you forget your keys, so you go back into the house, that puts you 2 min latter so you are not hit by the bus.
Or you are 2 min latter and get hit by the bolt of lightning, one person says it just happens, to others, God has made things happen for a purpose.
No Chuck, that is a pure nonsensical and illogical argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
The soldier driver caused the accident because he was driving too fast or was un-attentive, and reacted much too late. My presence had nothing to do with that.
Similar that bus or lightning accident : God (if she exists) had nothing to do with that. Unless of course you can PROVE with objective, serious, and logical arguments otherwise...
:rolleyes:
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Bullet comes into my home, the bible research book I am holding stops it, who is the cause for me holding that bood at that exact time, To me God had to have a hand in it.
Oh I most certainly do believe that God intercedes on our behalf. So many of my life experiences does prove that, and I am most grateful.
I know that my husband was an absolute gift from God. The blessing that He gave me, each day does prove that it was God's hands that brought us together. I don't know why God shined on me so favorably, and I ask myself that daily, but still am most grateful.
My girlfriend was shot down for so many jobs, but in truth, the jobs were not the right ones for her. The environment was very poor. And I kept telling her, it wasn't the ones that were meant for her, but she never lost hope or faith. And finally :), just this week she started the absolute perfect job for her.
God knows what is best for all of us, we just have to be sure and listen and know that He does direct things in our lives, and they all will be meant to be good for us. There is a gift in every blessing.
Yes I think I would be better off praying for guidance and direction rather than just asking for Things. God sends rain on the just and the unjust, because he loves each one, not because of their deeds but because His love is unconditional. And as for dying or not dying, as soon as sin came into the world, it brought death. Imagine being in a horrible wreck or badly burned in a fire, but you could never die! That would be worse than dying I think.
No Chuck : your hands had a "hand in it" !Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
:rolleyes:
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Strange than that so far all human historical records indicate that never any amputee - despite prayer or any other request to "God" to intercede - ever had a hand, arm, foot, or leg restored. Now : why would that be? Billions of wishes over time are suggested to be taken care of by "God".Quote:
Originally Posted by Allheart
But why not ever any wish by any amputee to "God" ? Is there perhaps a special plan "God" has with amputees?
Or may it be that all these claimed intercedings (?) by "God" are just "lucky" circumstances, are all these failed intercedings (?) by "God" not just "unlucky" circumstances, and are any intercedings (?) by "God" just impossible because either "God" does not exist, or does not care at all about any human being?
Is it not perhaps correct that there is no "God" at all?
At least that would explain perfectly and convincingly why amputees do not grow new limbs...
:rolleyes:
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Oh Cred, but that could have been God's plan, and that may sound cruel, but what we don't know about today, somehow that answer does lie in tomorrow. Have you ever wondered why something didn't turn out the way you wanted it to, but the days, months even years, you are so glad it didn't turn out the way you thought it wanted to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
How many people have been stricken with an illness and then used that illness to help others?
Remember, God does give us free will. I smoke ( I had stopped for over a year... ugh, but then picked up the awful habit), if and when I get cancer, should I expect God to cure me, of something that I set in motion with my free will.
Now this is not to say at all that amputees by any means caused this. Many many have not. I think of our brave soldiers, who have lost many limbs, but I bet if you talk to them,
You will find some, who are even closer to God. Who are now using their disability to help others.
God's plan is a masterful one and it is very hard for the human mind to understand fully, but that is where faith kicks in.
Mature Christian, I do not believe any of us are Mature Christians. I would say Maturing Christians, because as believers we are constantly growing and learning. So is it fair to say that some believers are more mature then others. We are told not to judge one another, but I see that all the time. Saturday night I was at a catholic service and one lady before service started just came out of confession, sat down in the pew and this other lady sat beside her. They were gossiping about other people the whole service. Talking through the whole thing. Judging others. I could not believe it. I still extended my hand out in piece but am I being judgemental towards them? I am not perfect, no one is. We all fall short. So I guess we need to lift each other up. No matter what our faults may be. Love is to truly be there for one another. Continually growing and learning and maturing, but there is no such thing as a mature Christian in my opinion.
Yes Allheart. That may indeed be that way. However : "Oxham's razor" states that almost always the simplest answer to a question is the correct one. Therefore it seems more logical to assume that there is no "God" at all, as that explains the lack of regrowth of limbs perfectly and convincingly... All other assumptions require another unsupported suggestion or questionable additional claim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allheart
"God's ways are inscrutable" is a clincher, not an explanation !
:rolleyes:
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