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NeedKarma,
I have done so attentively, and I will continue to do so. I am always interested in the other's point of view.
It is a good way to learn about other's beliefs and to review the validity and value on one's own belief.
To not do so is to close one's mind to understanding other people and therein lays a great problem with humanity as to why we cannot get along well with those of another faith, or culture, or set of ideas and ideals
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
The difficulty with religious discussions such as in this thread is that you have two groups of people: those who believe that the Bible is the written word of G-d, and those who do not. The believers make the assumption that everyone else believes (or should believe), and base all their arguments on that "fact". Unfortunately, people who don't believe the Bible is G-d's word are never going to be convinced by the reciting of scriptures that they don't think are divinely inspired. If someone quoted the Bagavadgita (Hindu Holy Scriptures) instead of the Christian Bible and expected everyone to "just believe" it was the word of G-d with no questions, that person would get laughed off the forum. Since I am neither Christian nor Hindu I take the same view of both. There's no difference to me.
Personally I am interested to hear all points of view, but it would be refreshing to have someone who believes in the Bible tell me WHY they believe it's the word of G-d, without quoting scriptures.
orange,
I quote you, "it would be refreshing to have someone who believes in the Bible tell me WHY they believe it's the word of G-d, without quoting scriptures." That is a very interesting desire.
It would make a marvelous thread, I think.
In my case I believe that the Bible "contains" the word of God as written by those who understood the inspiration form the level of knowledge, understanding, and culture at the time it was written.
I believe it as such because I have used it as such and in doing so it has personally in many way proven to me to my satisfaction that it does contains the word of God.
But I must keep in mind what it meant to the inspired author and then apply that to me in this day and age.
I could go on at length about there various teaching in the Bible. But space is limited and at present so is my time.
I hope that helps and is of value to you.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Arcura,
You quench your spiritual needs your way, and I do the same.
You may take umbrage to whatever you wish in my words. We all have preferences, mine are what they are, mine. My choices have been made based upon my needs, not yours.
I have no difficulty with you expressing yourself as you wish, so kindly extend the same courtesy to me as well as others. People DO have the freedom to choose whatever they feel is right for them therefore accept that fact without chagrin, it is a fact of life.
“ there in dwells your problem” Problem? I have no problem with my choices, they are, after all mine to make and no amount of proselytizing will persuade me in altering my choices or my opinions.
Now as to your comment …. “ not in the manner you intended ” …. you are being quite presumptuous in telling me what what I mean to say - that is not your call but mine. Neither you nor your beliefs have any bearing on my words or my intentions.
Don’t bother to attempt to electrify me with the scriptures, they are evidently important to you, they are not to me so don’t waste your time sermonizing to me about scriptures or biblical issues, am not in the least interested. I can see that you are trying to be kind and to “spread the good word” so to speak, but spread them to another person where they will be appreciated.
" To say that the faith you believe in is the one and only truth (which is what you said originally) is chauvinistic and biased. "
Thanks Scott, this is exactly what I believe. This religious exclusivity is extremely biased because it pushes aside any other path to spiritual fullfillment.
Quote:
The difficulty with religious discussions such as in this thread is that you have two groups of people: those who believe that the Bible is the written word of G-d, and those who do not. The believers make the assumption that everyone else believes (or should believe), and base all their arguments on that "fact". Unfortunately, people who don't believe the Bible is G-d's word are never going to be convinced by the reciting of scriptures that they don't think are divinely inspired. If someone quoted the Bagavadgita (Hindu Holy Scriptures) instead of the Christian Bible and expected everyone to "just believe" it was the word of G-d with no questions, that person would get laughed off the forum. Since I am neither Christian nor Hindu I take the same view of both. There's no difference to me.
Orange, I agree with you about the two groups of people. I somewhat agree with you on the reciting scripture part. Scripture does hold some power behind it. I think it is how it is presented. Of course, you (meaning anyone) do have your free will to accept it or deny it. I have seen where scripture alone has brought someone to believe. Beating someone over the head with the Word is not the answer I do agree. Presenting in such a way that is non-threatening and inviting is the way to go. But I also feel I don't have to prove God, he is powerful enough to do it by Himself. My obligation is to try not to turn someone off so that they won't believe in Him.
I have watched a lot of how these types of threads end up going. I am also learning how people are responding to the threads as to what they believe or don't believe. That allows me to bring my point across hopefully without turning someone off or even making the discussion a horrible debate.
There is a heaven and a hell and for you to be a believer of GOD u have to believe of the two. As far as which religion to choose I really don't know,just being a good person dosen't save u. do you believe Jesus died for u, was buried and was raised Easter Sunday. If you do u shall be saved. But to stay on this path you must surround yourself around other believers. I think it is great that you are thinking about all this at the age of 15. Life is not promise to none of us my brother died @18. Today I found out my uncle expired. Read the word of God and Pray and let the LORD lead you in the direction he wants you to go in.
Jduke,
You make a lot of really great points. That's interesting about the belief that scripture has power all on its own. That certainly helps to explain to me why people quote it so often. No one has ever given me that explanation before, so thanks for that! :)
"My obligation is to try not to turn someone off so that they won't believe in Him". That's a great statement too. I personally have been turned off by what a lot of people who claim to be Christians say and do. I'm so glad to meet a Christian who sees this as a valid thing to be concerned about.
And yeah the main reason for my post was that I think these debates generally go nowhere. People tend to stay in their own camps. But it's great when people can state and discuss their beliefs without being condescending, rude or insulting. Thanks so much for your post.
Orange, thanks for the comment. I am glad I brought some insight. It is really hard to put yourself aside to really hear what others are saying. This is why you rarely see me respond to these threads unless I feel there is another point that needs to be made.
I really hope that animeluver06 has found this thread informative. She hasn't responded in awhile.
ROLLINWJESUS,
I'm sorry that you have recently lost so loved ones.
You make some goof points, but...
A person can believe in God and not believe in heaven or hell. I know several people with that type belief.
But if you believe in the Bible as the word of God then you do automatically believe in heaven and hell. So yes there is great power in Holy Scripture, but leaving it sit on the shelf unstudied provides none of that power.
Also there is more to do than just believe in Jesus and that he died and rose from the grave to be saved. Why and who for he did that is necessary. Also a person must have a working, not a dead, faith in what Jesus did and what He commanded us to do as His followers.
Also never forget what he said about forgiveness, those who forgive will be forgiven. That means that those who do not forgive will not be forgiven.
Only the forgiven go to heaven! So study the other things Jesus said to do to be saved. That is very important.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
I think animeluver06 left 3 weeks. Ago. I now we are up to at least Junior stage?
Orange: I must quote you. "I personally have been turned off by what a lot of people who claim to be Christians do."
First I would like to know what that is because perhaps your knowledge of impressionable Christian people was not available to you thus far. Christians have bad habits & bondages sometimes just like everyone else. It doesn't make them any less loved by God. When one is born again, God deposits in one's spirit a seed of His glory that is intended to grow and mature throughout their Christian walk.( Example1.- cursing) I'm convicted in my spirit down to saying," Stop cussing!
Now there are perhaps many "carnal" Christians. That is the 2nd level which is a stage up from someone whois at level 1- the basic title of Christian b/c he was born one & has just believed in God for yrs., perhaps forgot about Him at times, but at this stage they are only Christians & not born again into Jesus.
At the carnal Christian level, level 2, one is washed by the blood of Jesus & all of his sin is erased by God, Jesus,& the Holy Spirit b/c God sent Jesus as the great Intercessor for us to pay the penalty for man's sin, & to save us from further sin. Now at this level a person is saved & he starts anew. God tells us that our past sins are erased from His memory. If this person devotes himself to mature in the Spirit he will come under conviction at this time to be sanctified & God will tell him to keep reading His Word regularly & before long this person may come under conviction in their spirit to overcome bondages & such of the flesh. If this person only stays a carnal Christian, by not reading the Bible or attending church, then this person does not grow in the Holy Spirit . Although he has salvation, he misses out on the abundant life do to lack of knowledge .
& he suffers the consequences still b/c he is unaware of what God wants from his people.
At the most desirable level is the Born-again Christian who makes an effort to inquire what the Lord would have him do, & how to be a good "saint" for God's Glory. At this stage it gets better.
Now man is made up of 1) spirit 2) soul<which includes the mind, will, & emotions> 3) the body or the flesh.
Before we are born again, our house is ruled by "self" & is considered dead spirit. When we ask that Jesus come into our lives to be Lord of our lives, we attest verbally*to God that we believe
Everything about Jesus's sacrifice.
Now the man that housed the dead spirit with self, this becomes replaced with an alive spirit, the born again spirit which is no longer controlled by self . Jesus replaces the self spirit. And note: Man's spirit can be only 3 things. Jesus-born again spirit;Self-dead spirit; or Satan-dead spirit.
Now we even are given the power unto ourselves & others to do good works because God tells us in His Book that this is in His plan. The spirit of a person is that eternal part of us that will continue on beyond the termination of our body's life( Ecclesiastes 12:7) The spirit stands for the highest elements of man by which we comprehend spiritual truths. Our spirit is the most powerful part of our being. It is the part that deals with right & wrong behavior.
When I was young Religion scared me because I would see maybe at the Port Authority in N.Y.C. in their restrooms, or actually in many public restrooms& trains I'd see some Jesus FANATIC doing writings & graffiti what seemed like crazy to me.
I think those images plus any fanatics I saw turned me off to the real Jesus.
I think the only way to be sure to get that born again spirit is to have a heart(which is considered where the spirit is housed) that is ready, willing, & able & humble to learn & start understanding the Lord. To go to a church & feel the anointing of the brothers ( & srs.) when they lay hands upon you for healing or even to get rid of the spirit of rejection or lust or anger, or withcraft. It is then when they are standing in prayer that one can feel the anointing as one nearly drops to the ground. I always was afraid I wouldn't be caught so I had to control a lot of that power.
And to someone's question about how do I know the Bible was given by inspiration of God. Because I heard the truths from a respected Theologian that I follow daily through his Programs. How he describes the history of the bible throughout the age, & I believe it. I trust what this Reverend says, & I'm just going to take his word for it. God told the Prophets & the Apostles what to speak & what to write.
He gives me beauty for ashes;
Strength for fear;
Gladness for mourning;
Peace for despair.
Love & peace
Look at it this way. If you are turned off by what Christians do, are you not also turned off by what others in all walks of life do?
Life is full of turn offs and turn ons in many aspects thereof.
If a person is going to not become a Christian because of what some Chrisitians do think of all the great many things a person can not become because of what some people in all those great many things do.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
If you do not like broccoli then you must also not like all other vegetables. See how asinine that thinking is? No Fred, what bothers people isn't the fact that some people are Christians (or any religion or sect or denomination), what bothers people is the constant preaching and attempts at conversion and being told that what they believe is essentially wrong. No one here is trying to convert you so please don't do it to others. It's the same reason why people are annoyed at the mormons going door to door. Take the lead from your peers such as Rickj or Fr.Chuck who are devout in what they believe in but understand that one's beliefs are of a personal nature.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
ACURA
I totally agree with you I came from the stand point of believing in the word of God(THE BIBLE) when it comes to believing in heaven and hell. When I said believing in Jesus I'm merely talking about the bases of being a believer. Next you need to be spiritually feed and that is from studying the word of God and teachings. I must put this out there everything you hear is not true some scriputures are taking out of context purposely,accidentally, etc. that's why you need to know the WORD. BIBLE sitting on the shelf,riding around in the car, no power.
This is essentially repeating what I have said before, but it bears repeating especially since its being ignored.
The one point I agree with Chuck on was that religion, any religion, provides a standard and framework of moral and ethical behavior. Most religions adhere to the same basic standard that has come to be known as the Judeo-Christian ethic.
Organized religion provides many things for the faithful. Some provide a punishment/reward system to ensure adherence to bahavioral standards. Others just try to promote the logical goodness. There may be other methods as well.
But what it boils down to is are you a good person. Are you honest, are you generous, do you help people ar abuse them? If you are a good person, then what you believe in terms of organized religion matters not a whit. It doesn't even matter that you believe.
One doesn't "need to be spiritually feed". Some do, some don't. I don't believe I need to be saved, nor do I want someone prostelytizing to me about it. If anyone wants to promote their religion by telling why it gives them comfort, ease, power, etc. That's fine. But don't start telling me that, if I don't follow your religion I will be damned or an bad or whatever.
This thread proves that people with disparate views about religion can discuss them politely and dispassionately. It also proves that some people can't, that they have this missionary complex that makes them feel their's is the only true way and they have to get everyone to see that.
Such people need to take a step back and realize that not everyone believes that same and that there is nothing wrong in that.
The bible has the answer you need. If you are interested in discussing this one on one (so as to eliminate all the background noise of those who reject the bible), please go to the website: www.oilandwineministries.org and hit the contact us button to send me an email. I will share what the bible says and you can either accept, reject, or question it.
Blessings,
Phil Debenham
I believe that religion is something made up so that people feel better about their delusions.
If you believe in god then you believe in a god that you and only you know about because if you believe in religion then you believe in somoene else's god
The only benefit of religion is organization and churches and places to worship
If you believe that your god wants you to worship in a specific way then chose the religion that fits that style of worship
I'm taking a psych class so the other day I was wondering:
If I were a psychologist and I had a patioent that told me that they believed in a god that they never saw or heard
How would I see that
I believe I would treat that as a delusion and medicate the patient
Another religion that is gaining popularity: Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Believers around the world.
http://www.venganza.org/
Not all delusions need medical treatment. Personally, I tend to agree that belief in god to the extent that some religions do, is a delusion. But it's a benign one. It does harm to no one, unless that person tries to force their delusion on others.
Edit: Phil commented on the wrong post.
NK,Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Thank you for the link and the laughter.
Humor is a prized gift and those who lack it are sad indeed!
Oh, but I do have a sense of humor... I laugh at myself for hitting the wrong button and responding to your post instead of the preceding one as I had intended. You will note that I went back and posted the same response to that post... which made since there, but didn't make since concerning your flying spaghetti post. Sorry if I hurt your feelings.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Oh I see. I guess the negative rep kind of did hurt my feelings. I'm only human. :)
No harm no foul then. Let's carry on.
I believe (and I have found that it (everything) is EASIER to believe)
This life is harder without a savior. Call it a crutch, (like my "stubborn husband" does) call it that, but it is really a hidden titanium spiritual rod that protects their body & soul from the negative. Now some people really believe but make all kinds of excuses why they can't & won't hear the word of the Lord. And as a
Christian I know that faith comes from hearing , & hearing the word of the Lord. Some people really do not want to go to church and get "saved" because now they will think they will have to continue going to church! But God is faithful. In His great plan, He knows who are His. And if they only continue reading faithful literature from time to time, hearing the Faithful ministers on TV or radio, & praying, then the timing is right or ripe for this person to be exactly where they are spiritually... for they are able to hear the Lord's voice speak to their heart through prayer for guidance & direction. For the record: Christians do HEAR the voice of Jesus & it is no delusion.There is softness in His still small voice which is never doubted for anything else but His. (ie: noise or hearing voices as in a psychosis) I can think of only one Prophet that actually SAW God. ISAIAH. but I'm not sure, so someone out there might help me out with that. Many in the Bible of course saw Jesus, and nowadays "we" have to wait till we are finished from this life to see Jesus again.
About how some Bibles sit on peoples shelves...
One good reason I see for that is that these individuals have no real source or teachers from which to be able to apply what they read,
For daily living & such.
The Bible Scripture is taken out of context to them, & they get confused.
Where Scriptures are the answers for that individual, that is the beauty of Religion, but they relly never feel it, & the Bible sits here & there.
One Pastor of a Church I attended for 6yrs before I moved had this very effect on my spirit. This man of God said in so many ways to the congregation that certain parts of the Scripture will stand out to you in your individual spirit & that was important , in how the Lord was especially letting you know or see something absolutely & positively written for YOU to see & or hear.
Christians do have an instruction from the Lord to" go & make disciples" in this world. That is why we are always prompted to do such.
Some people are stubborn & want to continue on with" their"will be done.
There is always hope for them where there is life. We pray for people like this, that's all that can be done.
Maybe I won't get to see my husband in the next life & maybe I will.. there's still work to be done, and done and dddone. But I'm happy with the thought that I will see my children there one day & others that have gone to "sleep" too.
Cheers!
Life is harder for who? Sounds like you are proving what your husband feels. By using a savior as this spirtual protection, you are using a crutch. Maybe that works for you, but as long as you feel its right and necessary for everyone (as you notes seem to say), then that's wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
This is one of the main reasons for my beliefs. "In his great plan" Umm, what plan is that? The one that devastates this planet with a tsunami? Or the one that sets people against one another to maim and kill innocents? Or the one that causes the death of a seeming saint of a woman (Dana Reeve) is did nothing but good in this world? Or the one where father kill their babies by shaking them death? Or the one where priests abuse their powers by sexually abusing their parishioners? If your only answer is "god moves in mysterious ways", don't bother!
For the record, you may believe you hear God, but I don't see any proof, that its just simply your thoughts.
Yes, Christians are instructed to be missionaries. And what a great deal of harm has been done as a part of that instruction.
And, yet again, I say that this attitude that if one doesn't believe in this whole pearly gates rigamarole, then one will suffer eternal damnation is a crock. Its simply a scare tactic to keep people in the fold and get others to go along.
No she's still around. She was online 2 days ago. She just isn't posting in this thread, but she has said that she enjoys everything that's been said here, so we're not doing her a disservice.Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
Oh boy... long story. I have been around many different Christians in my life, both mainstream and fundamentalists. I was in several Christian foster homes, and went to a Catholic boarding school for several years. I also tried being a Christian as a young adult, for a while. The church I was in was pentecostal. I left it after a scandal in which the pastor was accused of stealing money from the church and being inappropriate with young girls. The church split, and half the people went with the pastor, and half formed their own church. I had friends on either side, but everyone expected me to choose a side. When I went to one side, the people on the other side, who used to be good friends, wouldn't speak to me anymore. I couldn't stand the hatred so I just left completely and have never gone back.Quote:
Orange: I must quote you. "I personally have been turned off by what a lot of people who claim to be Christians do."
First I would like to know what that is because perhaps your knowledge of impressionable Christian people was not available to you thus far.
I could also give you many examples in my childhood where I was terrorized by Christian foster parents. Here's one: I was about 7 years old, and there was a visiting ministry pastor who said that because I was a shy and withdrawn child I had demons. So then a bunch of adults pinned me to the floor and they "prayed" over me (it was more like yelling and screaming). These parents also spanked me with a paddle practically every day, sometimes more than once a day. I have many more examples... it would take pages and pages to go into it all.
However, the incidents at the church and in my childhood is not what turned me off Christianity. I have enough insight to realize that there are good and bad people in every religion, and that these things could have happened to me in a Buddhist or Jewish foster home just as easily. No, what I meant when I said I am turned off is that I don't like fundamentalism. I mentioned Christians specifically, because jduke and I were discussing Christianity. It's not just fundamentalist Christians I don't like, Islamic fundamentalists, ultra Orthodox Jews, etc... to me they're all the same: preaching, the trying to convert others, ignorance and disrespect of other faiths and beliefs, judgemental attitudes and judgmental statements made. All fundamentalists turn me off. I believe that true Christians don't do this; that's why I said in my statement "people who claim to be Christians"... I have Christian friends who would never dream of saying the things that I've heard (or read, rather) on this forum. Some of the stuff said here really shocks and saddens me.
Actually I have a very good relationship with the Ukrainian Catholic nuns who taught me in my boarding school and basically raised me to be a responsible woman. They saved me from the fate of many of my foster siblings, who ended up on drugs, into prostitution, and even dead. They taught me so much, and yet they were always very respectful of the fact that my biological parents were Jews. They never tried to convince me to be a Catholic. As I was in a Catholic school, I had to participate in all the activities, mass, etc, and be respectful, but at the same time, they encouraged me to learn about being Jewish and to be proud of it. In fact, at Jewish holiday times, they always used to make me do extra assignments pertaining to Judaism, and present them to the class. I used to hate it haha but I really learned a lot. I am still very good friends with all the nuns, they came to my wedding and are excited about the baby I'm having in the summer. We have long conversations and they NEVER EVER spout scriptures at me or tell me I should be a Christian. In fact, if I was ever to be a Christian, I would want to be like them.
Hope that answers your question. It's fundamentalist attitudes in ANY faith that I object to, not Christians specifically.
It disturbs me that you were so mistreated.
Unfortunately it has happened to many people.
In reality the perentage of mistreated people is small but that is of no help to those who were.
I wish and pray for a far better future or you than the bad you experienced in the past.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
I'd like to respond to the 1st responder 1st.
Hello, ScottGem from LI, N.Y... I was born in Brooklyn so yes I can easily say, "u dont want to believe anything, so forgetaboutit!"
1) I don't believe I've I've heard- I 've heard, to be exact... period. Since this doesn't happen for you then it is only an ojective fact for me to state that- THAT is for reproof (statistics) about Christians not hearing or seeing something to confirm their beliefs. By the way, His voice comes with a feeling . A soothing, entle feeling, that is always compassionate.
2) About this whole easier/harder life thing. Well, my husband hasn't been where I've been spiritually & emotionally. He hasn't suffered TRAUMATIC things . I'm still getting double back in blessings now... so don't ever feel sorry for me! So, some come to Jesus when they are humbled to their knees, & some grow up knowing Him . In Mt. 11:28 Jesus says to come to Him all who are weary & burdened & I will give you rest. For my yoke is EASY and my burden is light.
If you actually read the Bible someday, I recommend that you start with the New Testament . Some will disagree with that. That's their style. Fine.
3) now about " a lot of harm has been done as part of that instruction.
Can you state anything specific? In general I think there is corruption in any area, ie: politics,etc. That is why this country needs to have the separation of Church & State. So we can be a society without discrimination. Having a respect for others, for the good of the Nation.
As for my my husband & you are concerned... I was responding to someone's note about them calling The Faith a crutch. He's hasn't (husband) hasn't said that,actually in a long time. He is coming around slowly. He sees the results.
from those believing, & he admits much to that issue. Thankyou for reading this, even if it is "therapy" for me.
Isn't great all the resources one can participate in?
Rainy Day People
Don't hide love inside
They just pass it on
Gordon Lightfoot
Yeah I agree with you there. I have friends who were raised Christian and had no abuse whatsoever. They had great childhoods. Like I said in my last post there are good and bad people everywhere. But once something bad has happened to you it is pretty difficult to forget. In fact to this day I can't watch any of those Sunday morning TV evangelists, even for a minute, because it triggers me so badly that I literally become physically ill.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Anyway, I have lots of Christian friends, and like I said it's not Christianty I object to, it's the fundamentalism and extremism.
I grew up mostly in Brooklyn (Coney Island area) But that's neither here nor there.Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
1) Ok, so you've heard. Can you prove it? Do you have recordings? Look I'm not trying to challenge your beliefs. You are entitled to them and if they make you feel better, stronger, whatever, then I am very happy for you.
2) But here is the big problem I have, you aren't content being happy with your beliefs. You have to proselytize and get me to agree that your faith is the only true one. That if I believe differently from you I am lost in some way. You talk about having respect for others, yet you don't seem to have respect for the beliefs of people that don't agree with yours. You can't let me be happy with my beliefs as I can let you be happy with yours.
3) Sure I can be specific. Lets start with the Crusades, then segue into the Spanish Inquisition. How about the Christian missionaries who spread throughout what's now called the third world. How many so called savages were killed when these missionaries bought civilized sicknesses to lands that had never had them and had no immunities. Just some examples.
And since we are quoting scriptures. I don't have the exact verse on hand, I'll find it if you want. But lets take a look at Job. Job was considered to be a very righteous man. So righteous that the Lord spared him in the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Yet this righteous man offered his young daughters (not in marriage) to 2 men if they would leave him alone. This is the Word of God we are supposed to heed and obey?
I believe I was the one who called religion a crutch. I stand by that.
As an aside to arcura. You can disagree all you want. That is your right. But please afford me the same right to disagree. What you see as negativism, I see as reality. What you call an attitude, I see as conclusions derived from concrete evidence.
Scott, I am not trying to persuade you to believe as I do nor criticize you for not knowing this but it was Lot that gave his daughters to the men.Quote:
And since we are quoting scriptures. I don't have the exact verse on hand, I'll find it if you want. But lets take a look at Job. Job was considered to be a very righteous man. So righteous that the Lord spared him in the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Yet this righteous man offered his young daughters (not in marriage) to 2 men if they would leave him alone. This is the Word of God we are supposed to heed and obey?
Can I tell the story a little to explain why that might be in there? The bible is also a history book of events that happened. God allowed things to be in there to show examples of things. This is in the Old Testament. Lot and his uncle Abraham parted ways. Lot decided to go in a land the looked prosperous. The problem is, the people were unrighteous in every way (according to God). Lot being a righteous man, got caught up in there ways. The two men were homosexuals who wanted the men that were there. Him being a righteous man would rather have the men not be caught up the sin of homosexuality (again God's law not necessarily mine) he gave his daughters to them. God did not in any way condone this act. We are humans just like everyone else. We mess up just like anyone else. That is the story in a nutshell. :)
I do understand where you are coming from. You hold your position very strongly and are pretty consistent with your thinking. For that I commend you.
ScottGem,
Of course you can disagree with me, some others have, and some new ones who come along may.
But you like to site the bad parts of things and seem to ignore the much greater picture of good.
I would rather see the good while acknowledging the bad.
The good vs. bad sort of thing happens throughout history in all cultures and societies.
This world is miserable enough without me pointing out and whining over the bad that has and does happen.
All I can do about it is learn from it and try not to make the same mistakes.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
That's an awful lot of eisegesis, arcura.
Main Entry: eis·ege·sis
Pronunciation: "I-s&-'jE-s&s, 'I-s&-"
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural eis·ege·ses /-"sEz/
Etymology: Greek eis into (akin to Greek en in) + English exegesis -- more at IN
: the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas -- compare EXEGESIS
Compliments of:Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
Thanks, Tommy, but I already knew the definition as I'm sure does acura.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommyp!972
phildebenham,
Yes you are correct and that is why I perfer Exegesis primarily done by those who have been studying Holy Scripture for 2000 years.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Thanks for the correction. It was a while ago when I researched this for some reason that it was Job stuck in my mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by jduke44
As for your expanded version of it, I don't recall any reference to homosexuality in the passages I read. I'll have to see if I can find it and review it.
No I don't believe I do. My comments here have been designed to point out the other side of the coin. While I may have given short shrift to the positive sides, that doesn't mean I don't see or acknowledge them.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
I have said, in several responses, that I am very happy for the people who feel their faith has helped them. I definitely acknowledge that faith can be a powerful thing. I have also indicated not only approval, but that I follow what is called the Judeo-Christian ethic. Which comes both the Old and New Testaments.
Clearly there is good in organized religion. But that does not mean that practicing an organized religion is right for everyone. That does not mean there is any one religion that is the true one. Yet some people in this thread have taken that position and I will argue against that.
Please show me someone who has been "studying Holy Scripture for 2000 years". Besides Mel Brook's 2000 year old man. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Seriously though, the key word in the definition is interpretation. The fact is that biblical scholars have intepreted and re-intepreted The Bible many times over those two millennium. There are differing interpretations for many, many passages.
The most happy people in the world are those who believe in some religion or another, who believe in a spiritual being, and follow their beliefs. It gives a feeling of "I am not alone", and we surely are not alone.
How about you prove it?Quote:
Originally Posted by fredg
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