Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Really?? I thought he was a yid. Hmmm, his birth name is Israel Isidore Baline. That's a nice Christian name.
excon
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Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Really?? I thought he was a yid. Hmmm, his birth name is Israel Isidore Baline. That's a nice Christian name.
excon
I was joking... Happy Purim
You never know what is in someone else's heart. I agree with Martin Luther, that the Book of James could have been left out of the New Testament, but James does affirm that 'by your works shall you be known', or to that affect.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
When "Battle Hymn" is sung, I see Generals Grant and Sherman, and Honest Abe, prosecuting their version of ethnic cleansing in Georgia and South Carolina. Jesus is the farthest thing from my mind.
The bible has many references on how slavery is acceptable(Exodus 21:8). So slavery would be one of those Christian values that America was founded on.
Yes
WASP, ever heard the term? White Anglo-Saxon Protestant’s founded this country and were the Power behind the government until beginning of the 20th centaury.
No. Slavery as it was practiced in America was essentially kidnapping and therefore a sin against the dignity of man. Slavery or more accurately, servitude as seen in the Bible was simply recognizing of the hardships of life.Quote:
Originally Posted by michealb
Exodus 21:1 These are the judgments which thou shalt set before them. 2 If thou buy a Hebrew servant, six years shall he serve thee: in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. 3 With what raiment he came in, with the like let him go out: if having a wife, his wife also shall go out with him. 4 But if his master gave him a wife, and she hath borne sons and daughters: the woman and her children shall be her master's: but he himself shall go out with his raiment. 5 And if the servant shall say: I love my master and my wife and children, I will not go out free:
6 His master shall bring him to the gods, and he shall be set to the door and the posts, and he shall bore his ear through with an awl: and he shall be his servant for ever. 7 If any man sell his daughter to be a servant, she shall not go out as bondwomen are wont to go out. 8 If she displease the eyes of her master to whom she was delivered, he shall let her go: but he shall have no power to sell her to a foreign nation, if he despise her.
The Bible recognized the hardship of those times and permitted people to sell themselves and their children into slavery to seek a better life. Note that they were expected to be freed after seven years however. And note that they were not to be sold to their enemies.
Even today, every nation practices a legal form of slavery called imprisonment in which people lose their freedom as a penalty for breaking the law.
So, to compare slavery documented in the Bible during those ancient times one must put the practice in context of those times.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Hello again:
I guess this means that you Christians ain't going to answer my questions. Instead, you'd rather lay some bible on me... Oh well, I could have figured.
excon
De Maria,
Thanks, you fell right into my trap. ;) I don't deny any of the things you cite, but I maintain these are not solely "Christian" principles, but rather judeo-christian principles. Most of these principles that you listed come from the Ten Commandments or are based in the Old Testament. So should we then say that America is a Jewish nation?
I think it very chauvinistic of Christians to think they have a monopoly on the prinicples of peace, life and liberty. My argument is not that this country wasn't founded on principles near and dear to Christians, but that many of those principles existed before Christ nor are they solely the province of Christians.
Ok, let me try to answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
No I do not believe that America is a Christian nation. I do believe that many Americans like to believe that America stands for Truth, Justice and the American Way (oh wait that's Superman and he was a foreigner ;) ) I think that many Americans do have high ideals and even practice them. But the real truth is that the one abiding principle that is ingrained in the American psyche is individualism.
Right the bible has an entire section on how to treat your slaves, which means slavery is permitted and is part of the religious values of those people. If it wasn't a moral value of Christians to have slaves the book would say don't buy slaves or you will go to hell. A book written by an all powerful being wouldn't have to make allowances for how life was, it would be right from the start. So either the bible isn't the work of god or your god says it's okay to have slaves, which since you get your morals from god that means you think it's okay to have slaves. Those are your only two options. So if your going to claim that the country was founded on Christian values you have to claim the bad as well as the good.
“You were bought with a price; stop becoming slaves of men.”—1 Cor. 7:23.
In a speech to the General Conference of the Methodist Protestant Church in 1842, Alexander McCaine stated that the institution of slavery was “ordained by God Himself.” Was McCaine correct? Did God approve of the kidnapping and raping of girls, the heartless separating of families, and the cruel beatings that were part and parcel of the slave trade of McCaine's day? And what of the millions who are forced to live and work as slaves under brutal conditions today? Does God condone such inhumane treatment?
On the contrary, “God heard their groaning and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” Furthermore, Jehovah told his people: “I shall certainly bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians and deliver you from their slavery.”—Exodus 1:14; 2:23, 24; 6:6-8.
Clearly, the Bible does not condone the ill-treatment of others in any form. On the contrary, it encourages respect and equality among men. (Acts 10:34, 35) It exhorts humans to treat others the way that they would like to be treated. (Luke 6:31) Moreover, the Bible encourages Christians humbly to view others as superior, regardless of their social standing. (Philippians 2:3) These principles are totally incongruous with abusive forms of slavery practiced by many nations, especially in recent centuries.
The Bible gives no indication that the enslavement of humans by other humans was part of God's original purpose for mankind. Furthermore, no Bible prophecies allude to humans owning fellow humans through slavery in God's new world. Rather, in that coming Paradise, righteous ones “will actually sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree, and there will be no one making them tremble.”—Micah 4:4.
If you believe that the bible is the word of god then yes he was correct.Quote:
In a speech to the General Conference of the Methodist Protestant Church in 1842, Alexander McCaine stated that the institution of slavery was “ordained by God Himself.” Was McCaine correct?
To the contrary, your argument is that God allowed slavery therefore he approved…that is not different than the argument that God allows sin therefore he must approve.
The bible condems sin, it doesn't condem slavery just the extreme mistreatment of slaves and has a handy little rule book on how to treat your slaves. Sounds to me like its saying it's okay to own just don't mistreat them. Which would make slavery a religious value.
Clearly, the Bible does not condone the ill-treatment of others in any form. On the contrary, it encourages respect and equality among men. (Acts 10:34, 35) It exhorts humans to treat others the way that they would like to be treated. (Luke 6:31) Moreover, the Bible encourages Christians humbly to view others as superior, regardless of their social standing. (Philippians 2:3)
The Bible states that “man has dominated man to his injury.” (Ecclesiastes 8:9) This is perhaps nowhere more evident than in the oppressive forms of slavery that have been devised by man, not God.
Some Jews voluntarily became slaves to their fellow Jews in order to repay debts. This practice protected people from starvation and actually allowed many to recover from poverty. Furthermore, at key junctures in the Jewish calendar, slaves were to be released if they so desired. (Exodus 21:2; Leviticus 25:10; Deuteronomy 15:12) Commenting on these laws regarding slaves, Jewish scholar Moses Mielziner stated that a “slave could never cease to be a man, he was looked upon as a person possessing certain natural human rights, with which the master even could not with impunity interfere.” What a stark contrast to the abusive systems of slavery that mar the annals of history!
You must be ready to debate then? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottGem
Did anyone say they were solely Christian principles? No. But they are Christian principles.Quote:
I don't deny any of the things you cite, but I maintain these are not solely "Christian" principles,
Did anyone say they were not Judeo-Christian principles? But did any Jews sign the Declaration of Independence or assist in the revolutionary war against the English?Quote:
but rather judeo-christian principles.
In my opinion, this is a Christian nation because it was established by Christian people based on Christian principles. So, no, it is not a Jewish nation, although Jewish Law is embedded in Christian principles.Quote:
Most of these principles that you listed come from the Ten Commandments or are based in the Old Testament. So should we then say that America is a Jewish nation?
If that was your point, don't you think you should have made it before? Because it sounded to me as though you wanted to prove that they weren't Christian principles at all.Quote:
I think it very chauvinistic of Christians to think they have a monopoly on the prinicples of peace, life and liberty. My argument is not that this country wasn't founded on principles near and dear to Christians, but that many of those principles existed before Christ nor are they solely the province of Christians.
And...
Whether you think Christians are chauvinistic or not is besides the point.
And...
Whether these principles are shared by other groups is also besides the point. Because Christian people did not go out of their way to establish a nation upon the principles of a people foreign to them.
Caught in your own trap? ;)
Sincerely,
De Maria
Not in the least. None of what you said comes close to challenging the point. People still refer to Christian principles not Judeo-Christian prinicples. The omission tells the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
No, there were no Jews in the Continental Congress because your "all men are created equal" Christian founding fathers didn't think they were equal enough. But yes Jews did assist in the Revolution:Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
How the Jews Saved the American Revolution
Crash Course in Jewish History Part 55 - Jews and the Founding of America
The American Revolution: Haym Salomon
For a matter of historical accuracy the Answer is yes ;there were American colonial Jews who fought in the Revolution. Here is a little known fact ;the 1st person in Philadelphia to sign the non-importation agreement in reaction to the Stamp Act was a man named Mathais Bush;a Jew .He was President of the Mikve Israel Congregation .
The Jewish population of the colonies was split as were the rest of the colonies over support for the war .But the Jewish population was largely supportive. In one of the first major battles ;Bunker Hill ,Aaron Solomon stood in the front ranks . Francis Salvador of South Carolina was the first Jew killed in the war. Many more Jews fought and sacrificed for American independence.
It is noteworthy to consider that a major arms supply network was established on Dutch St. Eustatius island by Jewish arms traders. A British fleet under Admiral Sir George Rodney was sent to destroy the supply base at about the same time that Lord Cornwallis began his retreat to Yorktown. Had the fleet not been otherwise occupied it is possible that Cornwallis could've been resupplied . As it turned out a weakened British fleet trying to resupply Cornwallis was defeated by French Admiral Degrasse. The battel of Yorktown was lost and Cornwallis surrendered .
So yes ,Jews did have a small but major contribution to American Independence.
Also of note ; at least 5000 African Americans fought for the colonials.
I always hear the 'America is a Christian nation' and I have been saying for a long time that
I do not believe it is because many so called Christians are in name only.
Like many people say they are Christian because their grandmother always told them they were Christian. Many are professing Christians and have no idea what being a Christian really means.
Not only challenging but demolishing. You insinuated that this country was not founded on Christian principles:Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottGem
What Christian principles? I'm not arguing with you (yet). But I'm wondering what Christain principles are specifically in the Constitution or that it was based on.
Then you admitted that the principles are Judeo-CHRISTIAN:
Thanks, you fell right into my trap. I don't deny any of the things you cite, but I maintain these are not solely "Christian" principles, but rather judeo-christian principles.
I nor anyone here ever claimed they were "solely" Christian principles. Most Christians that I know understand that Christianity came from Judaism and that, in fact, salvation is from the Jews (John 4:22).
Correct. And what is that story? That Christians founded this nation on principles which they believed. The principles taught by Jesus Christ.Quote:
People still refer to Christian principles not Judeo-Christian prinicples. The omission tells the story.
Did I claim the founding Fathers had no flaws? Do you claim that you have no flaws? If the answer to these questions is, no, then what is the point?Quote:
No, there were no Jews in the Continental Congress because your "all men are created equal" Christian founding fathers didn't think they were equal enough.
The only thing I can gather is that you have admitted in that statement that the founding Fathers were Christian.
Wonderful! But that has little to do with the fact that this country is founded on Christian principles by Christian Founding Fathers. Two facts you have already admitted.Quote:
But yes Jews did assist in the Revolution:
How the Jews Saved the American Revolution
Crash Course in Jewish History Part 55 - Jews and the Founding of America
The American Revolution: Haym Salomon
Sincerely,
De Maria
Good to know. Thanks for the info.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
All this is very interesting, but let's just sum it up because excon sees lurking Christians behind every cherry tree: "American by birth, Southern by the grace of God."
Another example of american divisiveness.Quote:
Originally Posted by George_1950
______________________________
Proud to be Canadian
Thanks, NK: you folks used to be our 51st state, but I guess you are about 52nd now. I've read all this stuff about slavery and De Maria seems to be winning because there is no prohibition of slavery in the Bible that I am aware of. I mean, argue the Golden Rule if you can't think of anything else. But all is not lost: we can research the Abolitionist movement and find plenty of ammunition, and some will come from Scripture; it's just that I'm not that conversant with it. After all is said and done, excon can rest easy because it appears that John Locke and the Enlightenment are the progenitors of the U.S. and not the Bible.
You haven't demolished anything, not even close. You just dance around the point I'm trying to make without addressing it.
If I say a building is built of steel, that doesn't tell the while story, because the building probably also is built of concrete and other materials. So to say the US was founded on Christian principles doesn't tell the whole story either. But if you insist that the US is a Christian nation, denigrates all the other elements that went into its formation.
I hear people argue that the founding fathers were Christian and others say they were deists.
I have read some of the diaries that Christians use to say that George Washington, Ben Franklin and many of the others were Christian.
Quotes of the Founders : Founding Fathers quotes on religion, faith, Christianity
Our Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians
Religion of the Founding Fathers of America
Saph
The founders ;or most of them were active members of Christian denominations ;many were deists and stillactive members of their church .That is about the most irrelevant point in this debate. Thefact is that none of them had a notion that they were founding a "Christian nation" . Honestly ,I think the biggest concern of the colonist were changes in the rules of commerce initiated by the Brits in an attempt to pay for their very expensive war against the French;that had directly benifited the colonists . Had King George not been such an the issues were resolvable. Many of his reactions were punitive and that helped tip the balance of the hearts and minds of the populace in favor of revolution (barely : the populace was pretty much divided between "patriots" ,"tories" and fence sitters)
Scott and George are right ; the influence of the Enlightenment on the founders was the philosophy behind the Revolution.
For those who are visually inclined: YouTube - Christian nation myth
Hello again:
Thanks George. But, you're preachin to the choir. We're not a Christian nation. I wasn't interested in a discussion about whether we ARE or not. That's been established.
I'm more interested in what people like Da Maria think ABOUT their belief. I don't care about the belief itself. I'm NOT interested in WHY Da Maria believes it. I couldn't care less.
My questions are of a social nature rather than a religious nature. But, I've said this before, and nobody seems to get it. They'd rather lay some bible on me...
So, I wonder if you people can't figure out what I'm asking, how can you figure out what Rev. Wright is asking?
excon
excon: Did Rev. Wright ask something? What I heard was a series of declarations.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Hello again, George:Quote:
Originally Posted by George_1950
Playing semantics?? That's what DC does. But, it's cool. This whole thread has been a semantic dance.
His declarations raise questions.
You musta seen my Jesus thing already. If not, I'm going to repeat it here...
"I ain't no Christian, so what do I know about it? However, Jesus was rabblerousing Jew, and I know something about that.
He wasn't politically correct. He upset the status quo. He disrupted the comfortable. He got angry. He threw the moneychangers out of the temple. You seemed to like it when Jesus did it. Is that cause he was white? Or because YOU were the one being oppressed??? Frankly, Jesus raised holy hell. Why can't Wright?"
excon
Thanks excon for helping me with that. Rev. Wright is/was in church, in the U.S. after all. He can raise all the holy hell he wants to, no one saying he can't. Are you confusing 'speaking freely' with the 'consequences of speaking freely'? By the way, why'd they send him to Africa? That's where I heard he was recently.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
hmm, another misconception. There is only one way to the father.. That also brings into the conversation we assume we actually know what's on the hearts of the people. I can attest many "Christians" talk the talk but don't walk the walk. Even "if" (which we have already learn it didn't) the Country was founded under Christian view/values/ect... We could never truly answer a question that is so subjective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_crow
I don't think that there is any clear answer to this question-IS AMERICA A CHRISTIAN NATION-
Most people use their religious believes to their own ends ( note I said most and not all)
America has to be classed as a christian nation because the person who runs it is indead a self confessed christian- isn't he!.
On the other hand the UK is a christian country there are numorous different faiths now in a muti cultural society and they are quite freely accepted in fact in some areas overpowering but still the uk is classed as a christian country
This argument could go on I think at the end of the day majority wins in that I mean christianity which means yes America has to be a christian nation
Let me preface this statement with I am a Christian who believes Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins. Taking upon himself the curse that man suffered under the law. I profess that from these words you are reading here in this post.. Like many other in the Country who profess their "faith". A large majority of the United States Claims to be Christians including our "fearless leader". That by no means makes the United States a Christian country. Actions would speak louder then words. We do not live in a Christian society. We live in a "Whats in it for me?", "instant gratification" society imposed on us by the majority. So if the Majority rules like you say, then the only conclusion is No, America, The United States, is not a Christian country.Quote:
Originally Posted by 0rphan
Hi smoked, I totally agree with your last post, perhaps I should have said America likes to think of itself as a christian country!. there are those purely out for personal gain as you quite rightly state but surely if we are being honest is it not like that around the world, I know many church go 'ers who come out in their Sunday best professing their devotion to the church when in fact I know them to be complete rogues during the week. Talk about keeping up apperences they look like one thing but are completely different if you dig deeper. Hence the saying " what you see is not always what you get"
I think it's all about impression, whether it's impression to your colleges or to the eyes of the world press the principle remains the same
I personally believe in the good guy upstairs and am not out for any personal gain from anyone, there are many true believers out there who practice there religion privately giving what they can to help charities and alike and I'm one of them, we can only do our best which is all the man upstairs asks of us .Many things now all about money including some churches which is very sad, but as the Lord said your church is where you are no matter where that might be , it does't have to be some posh place where every one is dress up.
I am going off the track abit here so to some up, I'll say America and countries alike use the front of " we our a christion country" purely for cosmetic purposes.
Bye for now
Hello again:
So, aren't any of you interested in what my question was?? Or are you soooooo damn interested in laying bible on me that you don't even bother to read??
excon
Do you think that the belief that America is a Christian nation is a belief that divides usQuote:
Originally Posted by excon
Clearly stated that their can be no belief in something that is not true. Making the question irrelevant.
or brings us together? Nothing as controversial as religion will ever be universally excepted.
Is that clearer for you? No one dropped the bible on your head, just used a couple simple facts to support some statements. Sorry if you didn't bother to read. So.. I thought I would make it very simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
By the way.. its called a conversation. Don't provoke it if you don't want it to happen.
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