Hello in:Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
Thank you, in. I appreciate the feedback. Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside... or, maybe it was the joint I just smoked.
excon
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Hello in:Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
Thank you, in. I appreciate the feedback. Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside... or, maybe it was the joint I just smoked.
excon
Wow. So people do listen to you. I am impressed ex. ;)
Inthebox, what about the atheistic viewpoint, has he gotten through to you? Have you learned anything new? Because that was more along the lines of what I was referring to in my posts. The Atheism vs Christianity debates that go on here.
Atheism to me is not so much a question of whether a God exists or not, but rather whether what people attribute to their God is true. For instance, to quote Thomas Paine:
Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.
“That God cannot lie, is no advantage to your argument, because it is no proof that priests can not, or that the Bible does not”
I feel your pain. Are you also embarrassed by the fiscal irresponsibility that has plagued every Republican Administration since Reagan's? Oops, off topic. Sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_crow
Quote:
Originally Posted by RubyPitbull
No. Learned a lot, yes. Most of the atheist I know of in real life are ex- Christians. I can understand that the legalistic aspect of organized religion does that. The challenges to what one believes, I think keeps me from being complacent. That I am thankful for.
I am an ex-Christian, though not exactly an atheist. What you call "the legalistic aspect of organized religion" was the principal reason for my leaving the fellowship of a church, but it really didn't have much to do with my changing beliefs about God. On that front, I just came to the realization that if there was a God worthy of my belief and worship, it certainly wasn't THAT one. J. B. Phillips (the Bible translator) wrote a book that I read about that time, Your God is too Small. I had to admit, it was true.Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
The way we react to challenges to our core beliefs says a lot about our character, I think, and thankfulness is a virtue.Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
No, no, no.Quote:
Originally Posted by RubyPitbull
C'mon Ruby. I was handling them left and right and then they accused me of being a "troll"? What? So, I pointed out to them that the ones who are trolling are they, themselves. I didn't go looking for them in the atheist section.
How did an atheist get to be the mod on the Christian section?
Sincerely,
De Maria
DM I don't understand the point you are making re: trolls. I know you "didn't go lookingQuote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
for them in the atheist section." That was a large part of my point throughout my posts here.
As far as the mods go, you have many of them throughout the site. They patrol all the threads and make sure nothing starts to veer off topic or breaks down into name calling & abuse, among other duties. Most of the mods are affiliated with a religion as far as I know. In addition, as members, we all have a responsibility to the site to ensure that everyone is adhering to the rules.
Your characterization of what you were doing says a lot about your motivation for doing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
You jumped in to help them. Now you want to make it sound like you were helping the Christians.Quote:
Originally Posted by RubyPitbull
I do like one thing you pointed out. It is they who have trouble with freedom of speech. This little group of atheists and nonChristians wants to say whatever they want to say and go unchallenged. But Christians have a say too. They'll have to get used to it.
What are you talking about? If you are referring to the "prayer in school" thread, tempers were flaring, you were being accused of saying a lot more than you actually said, which I thought was unfair, and I was trying to bring the thread back to point. I believe I defended your right to your opinion if I am not mistaken. So what if you and I have opposing viewpoints? I was really enjoying our exchanges. I do like the way you lay out your arguments. You have an interesting way of getting your points across. I never told you I thought you were wrong for wanting what you want, I didn't attack you, and I certainly wasn't helping anyone else attack you. Perhaps the problem here is that you are misinterpreting the intent behind my later responses? I am sorry you are choosing to read something negative into them rather than appreciate the truly benign intent behind them.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
I think you need to read all my posts here. I don't like anyone purposefully trying to force their opinions or beliefs down the throat of another. Eventually one or more people become abusive in their responses and the result leaves people upset. The Christian threads seem to be the area where this happens with the most frequency. It always seems to break down into a devout Christian vs Atheist (or non-Christian) argument. Why? Perhaps, as I stated, the Christians don't want the Atheists to voice their opinions on the Christian forum. From some of the responses received in those threads, that is exactly what has been said.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
I think both sides "have to get used to it." Of course you have a say, but so do they. The problem comes into play in how people choose to respond to a viewpoint that is diametrically opposed to theirs. You are one of the handful of Christians on this site that plays the persecution card, which doesn't help in these discussions. Christians aren't the only people of faith on this planet that feel persecuted. There are other faiths that have been dealing with this problem much longer (centuries and millennia longer) than the devout Christians in the United States. If we look at just the Christian threads here, why do some devout Christians choose to claim they feel persecuted simply because someone doesn't agree with them and chooses to continue a dialogue about the differences, when others just as devout in their Christianity, don't do that? It appears to me to be a control issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
In reference to your previous post here regarding the troll accusation you received, there are variations to the definition of "troll." It not just the one you pulled up on the "Holy Days" thread. Here is another one from Troll (Internet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia :
"An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who intentionally posts controversial messages in an on-line community such as an on-line discussion forum with the intention of baiting other users into an argumentative response.[1] "Troll" is also used in a broader pejorative sense to question the good faith of any Internet user who has annoyed the person using the term."
And another definition: What is an Internet Troll? (Posting Guidelines - Netiquette) What is a Forum Troll?
"An "Internet troll" or "Forum Troll" or "Message Board Troll" is a person who posts outrageous message to bait people to answer. Forum Troll delights in sowing discord on the forums. A troll is someone who inspires flaming rhetoric, someone who is purposely provoking and pulling people into flaming discussion. Flaming discussions usually end with name calling and a flame war.
A classic" .... "troll is trying to make us believe that he is a genuine skeptic with no hidden agenda. He is divisive and argumentative with need-to-be-right attitude, "searching for the truth", flaming discussion, and sometimes insulting people or provoking people to insult him. Troll is usually an expert in reusing the same words of its opponents and in turning it against them.
A" ...... "Troll" ....... "is generally interested to make other forum members look stupid. A troll will sometimes use insults to provoke other people to insult him. Then, he will complain to moderators of being insulted......"
P.S. excon, sorry to go off topic here but I felt DM deserved a response.
Ok, this turned out to be more of a big deal than anticipated. My post on this thread started kind of as a joke with a point. Joke being that I was kickin' behind and takin' names.
Point being what you just said, " If you are referring to the "prayer in school" thread, tempers were flaring, you were being accused of saying a lot more than you actually said, which I thought was unfair...."
Thanks. Likewise. In the few exchanges I've had with you, I've learned that you actually go to the trouble of reading the message. Rare quality on this forum. But I like it.Quote:
I was really enjoying our exchanges. I do like the way you lay out your arguments.
Sorry. Sometimes I revert to old atheist habits. I'll try to be more Christain in the future. ;)Quote:
You are one of the handful of Christians on this site that plays the persecution card,
If you want me to answer in more detail, I can, just let me know. But I was really just pa"trolling" on this thread. Just studying the competition.
Sincerely,
Can another christian intrude on your thread? What I see as a problem is those claiming to be Atheists attacking traditional values, Christianity, etc. A real Atheist would never bother to attack someone or something that he does not believe exists in the first place. To attack admits belief. Does this make sense to you who are Atheists?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
Hello Gal:Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
I don't know. The above looks like an attack on atheists values to me... but maybe I don't comprehend English very well.
In fact, I don't think you can show me ANY attacks on Christians here in this thread... Certainly not from me. Can show me where I've attacked individual Christians or traditional values or Christianity as a whole?
I think you're feeling a little persecuted.
excon
What are "traditional values" anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
It makes sense, Galveston, but what do you consider "attacking" Christianity and traditional values?
When an atheist disagrees with a traditional value of a religion. We are not disagreeing with the god of that religion we are disagreeing with the members of that religion. We don't have to believe in your god in order to disagree with your actions. Example say you believe that at the at the bottom the bay is a pot of gold and you think that you need to jump off the bridge to get that gold. I don't believe that there is a pot of gold at the bottom of the bay but I still might attack your idea to jump off the bridge to get it. I might even suggest a better way for you to go looking for the gold even though I'm sure there is no gold to be found. Now for why do I care if you jump of the bridge that depends, maybe I'm handcuffed to you, maybe your holding up traffic on the bridge and I'm late getting home, maybe your throwing your children off the bridge first there are any number of reasons I might care what your doing but the point is that I don't have to believe what you do to care about your actions.
OK. Traditional values; Christmas, voluntary public prayers, under God (pledge of allegiance), in God we trust (on money). There's 4 anyway. Now I know none of you would ever attack any of these, but I recall Madelyn O'Hare, and now we have Newdow. I don't think either of these was/is an Atheist, but are anti-God. Surely you can see the distinction?
The things you mention aren't attacking Christianity, they are enforcing equality.
Christmas - assuming you mean the "Happy Holidays" "Merry Christmas" thing, why is it unreasonable to want a greeting that is inclusive instead of exclusive? Remember, "Merry Christmas" only applies to Christians, why should everyone else be excluded?
Voluntary public prayers - I'll give you this, an atheist who attacks someone's right to pray is simply a bad person in my book. But it sort of depends on what you mean by "voluntary". If you mean a time in public school where students are led in Christian prayer and non-Christians are expected to sit quietly, that's a violation of the Constitution. Christians may pray to themselves in school whenever they want; they cannot, however, be led in prayer BY the school. Again, it's an inclusive/exclusive thing.
Under God/In God we Trust - A lot of people don't know this phrase was added to our pledge in 1954, so it doesn't hold the historical significance some think it does. Again, it can be seen as a constitutional violation. "In God we Trust" wasn't present on all money until 1957, and holds the same constitutional violation as "Under God". Contrary to popular opinion/belief, this is NOT a Christian nation, merely a nation which is dominated by Christians.
So if you see those things as an "attack" on Christian values instead of a battle for equal treatment and application of the Constitution, then certainly you are entitled to that opinion. But fighting for those things doesn't imply a belief in a god, so there is great reason why an atheist or non-Christian should care.
That what I thought you meant for some reason. Christians have hijacked that phrase and twisted for their political gain. More details here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
Traditional values - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaQuote:
Traditional values refer to those beliefs, moral codes, and mores that are passed down from generation to generation within a culture, subculture or community. Since the late 1970s in the U.S., the term "traditional values" has become synonymous with "family values" and imply a congruence with orthodox Christianity. However "family values" is arguably a modern politicized subset of traditional values, which is a larger concept, anthropologically speaking. It is also not necessarily a political idea, though has come to be associated with a particular vein of Evangelism and politics, embodied by some American politicians such as Ronald Reagan, Dan Quayle, and George W. Bush, and the Christian right more broadly, as embodied for example by Pat Robertson.. . The term can also refer to an intention to preserve ancient or traditional customs and values against anything deemed "innovation."
In paragraqh 3 you mention violation of the contitution. The meaning of the separation of Church and State has been really twisted in the past several years. If you will read that clause again, I believe that you will see that the prohibitions are all against the State, not the Church. The State can neither endorse, nor prohibit, religion, and nearly all of the men who established this nation were Christians according to their own testimonies. They failed to confirm the Constitution until after public prayer was offered to God about the matter. They did not establish an Atheist nation, an Anti-God nation, but they established a NON-SECTARIAN nation, which is a significant distinction.Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
Really, why does it bother you to be present when others are praying, or when someone wishes you "Merry Christmas", or why would you bring a lawsuit to prevent the display of a nativity scene on the courthouse lawn? Why do you hate the display of the Ten Commandments? Our world would be a much better place if more people followed them. Quit complaining and put up your own display, if you can think of something appropriate. Face it. My belief offends you, and you want me to disappear from sight so you won't be bothered. If I'm wrong about that, convince me differently.
Hello again, Gal:Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
Looks to me like the only one attacking anybody here is you.
You won't be convinced. You're not interested in rational discussion. You misquote. You mischaracterize. You don't understand your own country. You make up stuff. You foment hate.
Actually, I think the world would be better off WITHOUT people like you. If I'm wrong about that, convince me differently.
You ARE perfect for this discussion, however. Thanks for stopping by.
excon
Thank you, but I know very well what the separation of Church and State means; and a PUBLIC SCHOOL leading students in CHRISTIAN PRAYER violates it. Students in a public school are welcome to pray (and they do) but they cannot be LED in prayer by the school. And most of the authors of the Constitution were deists, but whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
Not that I said any of those things bother me, but I'll play along. It doesn't bother me when people pray in my presence, it bothers me if a public school endorses a certain religion. It also doesn't bother me if someone says "Merry Christmas", it bothers be that (some) Christians think their holiday is the only one celebrated during that time of year, therefore EVERYONE should say "Merry Christmas". The display of the nativity on the courthouse lawn, as long as it was not put up BY the courthouse and as long as all other religions can display in a similar fashion doesn't bother me at all. It's when a nativity gets put up and NO ONE else can display that I get peeved. The display of the Ten Commandments is the same thing; in a government building, it indicates and endorsement of a particular religion. The goal is for secular governmental buildings; how can one be secular if the Ten Commandments is present?Quote:
Really, why does it bother you to be present when others are praying, or when someone wishes you "Merry Christmas", or why would you bring a lawsuit to prevent the display of a nativity scene on the courthouse lawn? Why do you hate the display of the Ten Commandments? Our world would be a much better place if more people followed them.
Now you're just being rude and making things up. Your belief certainly does not offend me, not at all. Your sense of entitlement because of your religion offends me. Convinced yet? Probably not.Quote:
Quit complaining and put up your own display, if you can think of something appropriate. Face it. My belief offends you, and you want me to disappear from sight so you won't be bothered. If I'm wrong about that, convince me differently.
You're putting words in my mouth. Very unsanitary! I never wrote supporting teacher led prayers. Not guilty! Prayers led for someone else are a total waste of time anyway. As to the Ten Commandments, if you will notice, they appear on the front of the US Supreme Court building, and have been there for a long time. To say that the founders of this country were Deists can be disproved by an honest study of history. So, how am I spreading hate? Now my feelings are hurt!
Hello again, Gal:Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
Buck yourself up, and thicken your skin. We play hardball around here. How do you spread hate? Well first off, you accuse people of it. And, that you did. I read it right there. Looks like fomentation to me. Nobody said that word before you did. It's a false accusation, too. Oh, I'll bet that's exactly how your pastor put it, but he's WRONG, just like you.
I don't hate the Ten Commandments. Who could hate them? But, they're religious. That's just so. They don't belong in a public building. Why?? Because there might be some of the public who DOES hate the Ten Commandments. Those commandments might not be part of THEIR religion, and they own the "public" space equally with you. Therefore, it would be fair and just and very American to treat them the same. However, it would be impossible for every religion to be represented in the public square. So we've determined that it's better that NO religion be represented in the public square.
Isn't that a better idea?? Or would you rather have YOUR religion represented but NOT others?? That's not very American of you now, is it?
excon
^^
Well explained excon.
Apparently you've never heard of this thing called an "example", which is what my reference to prayer in schools was. Please see my sig. Then see excon's post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Sorry, and I know this is off topic, but nobody who had ever been pregnant would say this! Nine months is "very" pregnant. One week isn't. :)
Atheism is a Belief or a Faith because no atheist can scientifically prove that there is no god/creator
One does not need to prove a negative.Quote:
Originally Posted by fancyT
Negative proof - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
See alos: Russell's teapot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
wow man you're so atheist you don't even believe in atheist organizations existing. That's totally metal man! I like that...Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
I agree that most atheist organizations, like almost all other types of organizations, are political front groups. And most self proclaimed atheists are really agnostic. I myself am agnostic, with more leanings to atheism. The only reason I don't call myself an atheist, even though my "religion" is logic and science, is that Albert Einstein believed in god, and he was the greatest physicist of all time. Since he's smarter than me I respect his opinion. If he believed in something, who knows what the possibilities are. I am MORE compelled to believe that a reptilian Annunaki race from the planet Nibiru bio-engineered the human race, than to believe one word in the bible.
to get back to your topic, the church of Satan is probably the closest thing to a true atheist organization, seeing as how they donut believe in Satan actually, they are just anti Christian values, and use the name of Satan to incite the christians
To me that fails the atheist test: atheists aren't really anti-anything, we just run our lives without any deity whatsover. I don't give a thought to worshipping anything... ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by interinfinity
Very very good point. Lets just say that the church of satan is a bunch of schizophrenic athiests:)Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Hehe. Lost souls indeed.
I usually avoid the topic since it seems to upset so many people, but when it comes up, I generally point out that the "a" in "a-theist" means "without God" not "against God." I don't want to tell others what to believe. Live and let live. I've always thought that the idea of an organization of atheists was odd, like an organization of people who don't play basketball. What would be the point?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Most of you say you are not religious, but that just isn't so. Let's look at the earmarks of religion and then compare yours with mine. Would that be fair? Every religion has certain basic requirements: 1, a deity; 2, writings expaining that deity; 3, some form of spreading that religion (recruitment, eduation, etc.) DEITY: Mine: Jehovah/Jesus - Yours: Self WRITINGS EXPAINING THAT DEITY: Mine: The Bible Yours: The works of Charles Darwin FORM OF SPREADING RELIGION: Mine: Various ministries of the Church - Yours: The public classroom, where only Darwin's ideas are allowed. Face it. Your reaction to my posts is the same as any religious fanatic when his cherished values are challenged.
That's weird, I don't view any of what you've written as correct. But if it makes you happy to believe it then let it be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
Would it be fair? No. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
1. I'm not a deity; 2. I don't have any writings that explain my deitiness to anyone; and 3. I don't have any means of spreading an alleged religion about my alleged deity self. Generally speaking, people who claim to be deities get locked up... I certainly don't consider Darwin a deity or his works infallible, although he was an excellent scientist and very loving and considerate person as far as I can tell.
I love the word "deities." It tickles.
If you object to teaching evolution in classrooms on the basis that it's "religious," why not also all other science? Why only evolution? Why not geology, astronomy, and physics, all of which include facts and theories that contradict the bible?
Why does everyone claim that darwin is some father of atheism. If evolution is true, which no self respecting scientist claims that it is absolutely correct, then why is it so hard for a christian to believe that maybe, just maybe god created man through evolution... and why must a christian, who represents 50% of the human race, be so scared. Is it maybe because you know deep in your heart your mythology is false??Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
And what makes science and religion so opposite
Christians: god said let there be light
Science: big bang theory
Christians: god created the heavans and the earth
Science: gravity caused stars and planets to form
Christians: god created two lights, greater light to rule the day and lesser light to rule the night.
Science: the earth revolves around the sun and rotates on its access and has a moon that orbits it
Christians: god creates life in the seas first on the 5th day, cattle and beast on the 6th day and to quote the bible "and god created grate whales and every living creature that moveth, which the waters broght forth abundantly"
Science: life eveolved in the oceans first, and according to evolution the THEORY (not law) is that land animals evolved from whales/dolphins, ancient aquatic mammals
And what about this line in genisis "and god said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over..."
Why is god plural there (gen 1:26)
And when is the last time an atheist flew airplanes into the world trade center. Whens the last time an atheist country started an illegal war (the communists started legal wars if your going to argue that point). There is good and evil in all people, weather or not they believe in fairy tales like the koran or bible, or in imperfect theories like a darwinist, if people spent more time thinking about how similar we were to one another, this world would be a better place
I am fine with most of what you have said, interinfinity, but I do want to say that all self respecting biologists would say that evolution is true. It is not controversial among scientists. I agree that Darwin was not a father of atheism at all. He mostly avoided the subject because his wife was Christian and it pained her deeply to think that they would not be together in heaven. Darwin felt bad about hurting her because he loved her. But, still, he was not a believer either. His lost his faith as a young man.Quote:
Originally Posted by interinfinity
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