Quote:
Originally Posted by margog85
De Maria:
I will make one final attempt to say my piece here, and leave it at that.. .
Are you sure?
Quote:
You accuse me of not being happy in the U.S. and basically indicate that since I’m not happy, I should just leave. I stated that I disagree with that mentality (‘if you don’t like it, leave’) and you pick at my use of the word ‘necessarily’... to make what point, I’m not quite sure...
To make the point that in some cases you believe people should leave if they don't like the country in which they live. Its an anchor point. Establishing a point of agreement. You made it sound as though we disagree completely. As though leaving was altogether bad. But you did not make an absolute stance, since "necessarily" is absolute then 'not" necessarily is not..
Quote:
perhaps to paint me as wishy-washy and not saying what I mean?
Well, yeah. The thought had crossed my mind.
Quote:
Whatever the reason for your comment may be, my belief is... walking away may be justifiable.
My point exactly. It is obvious that our forefathers in this country left their homeland for that very reason.
Quote:
Until that point of hopelessness is reached, however, it is our duty as citizens of a democracy to stand up for our beliefs and work to make changes that we feel are for the betterment of our society and our country.
And you see, coming from you that's sounds strange. Because you seem to object to Christians trying make things better for society and our country.
Ask yourself this question. If you don't care whether a person says "Happy Holidays" or "Merry Christmas", then why do you object when a Christian wants to say Merry Christmas?
And if you do care when one says "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays", why don't you understand when others care about it as well?
In this country we have the freedom to care. If you object to someone being vocal, then why only when Christians are vocal do you object? Why not when nonChristains are vocal?
Quote:
I have never once made a statement in this discussion in which I ‘beat up America in comparison to other countries’-...
That's good. I simply made an explanation as to why I made the statement originally.
Quote:
Do not try to make me out as ‘anti-American’... will sway people into agreeing with your perspective, you are wrong.
No actually. I'm just pointing out that you are very prone to tell people what you believe but you object vehemently when anyone expresses a belief which disagrees with yours.
Quote:
I have made every effort to keep this discussion civil and respectful- there is absolutely no need for the condescending tone in this response. Your original statement was ‘All freedoms have a limit. The right to be married is limited by the sex of the individuals being married. That is what I believe.’
Note that I punctuated that with, "that is what I believe." Not with, "that is what you should believe". Therefore, I am simply informing you on where I stand on the matter.
If you feel that is an imposition of my belief upon yours, then where is the basis for a civil discussion? I can't speak my mind. Whenever I do, I am accused of imposing my belief.
Quote:
To which I responded that while that is your belief, it should not be imposed upon others who do not share your belief (by this belief being law, the belief IS imposed upon those who disagree).
Well, you didn't quite quote yourself. You kind of tweaked the language a bit to make it more palatable. Your exact words were:
Quote:
Originally Posted by margog85
And that is your belief, based upon Christian morality, which you feel should be imposed upon others who may not share your belief. I don't want to get into this topic here, it's completely unrelated. But evidently just another instance of the imposition of Christian morality upon secular culture.
Quote:
Maybe I should not fault you for your inability to understand, though... you simply may lack the ability to comprehend the difference between the statement ‘which you feel should be imposed upon others who do not share your belief’ (and see that law based on religious morals IS an imopsition of specific moral beliefs upon non-believers) and your accusation that I said ‘you are imposing your beliefs upon others’.
Uh? I think it is the other way around. I see a great big difference in the population getting together and peacefully voting whose belief will be implemented by majority rule AND the idea that I am imposing my belief upon anybody.
Have you ever heard of the term, "democracy"? That means we arrive at decisions based on voting. That means that the minority should not impose their will upon the majority. Its not a perfect system, but it works better than any other democracy or other government in the world today. In my opinion.
Quote:
Religious beliefs should not play a role in the determination of laws...
I don't agree. Our religious beliefs, or lack thereof are intimate parts of our being. We can't shed them and act as though we believe one thing at one time and another thing the next.
Just as you have stated that you believe in standing up for your nonreligious beliefs, we believe in standing up for our religious beliefs.
And that seems to be your only problem. You don't mind imposing your beliefs on others. But you don't even want to consider that a majority of people might come to agreement on a Christian ethic as a part of our rule of law.
Quote:
You make the absurd accusation that I would ‘be real happy if [I] could impose [my] beliefs on everyone’- an extremely idiotic and ignorant statement.
Which you don't find quite idiotic or ignorant when you make the same accusation towards me? Very interesting.
Quote:
If this were the case, I would be doing what oh so many Christians do…
In other words, you believe everyone should be apathetic. You want Christians to quit trying to make the world better as they see fit.
Quote:
Instead, I believe there should be equality and that religious beliefs should not impact federal or state law-
And I believe they should.
Quote:
if you don’t agree that gay marriage is 'right', if it’s against your religious beliefs,.
Well, this is way off topic, but the argument isn't as simple as you make it. And the fact is that all rights have their limits. And imposing homosexuality upon society would be just that, an "imposition" to something which is against our very nature.
Quote:
THAT is the imposition of the beliefs of one group upon another that does not share those beliefs.
And again, if homosexuals gather enough strength to change society's opinion, they can change the law. Just as abortionists have changed the law in their favor.
Quote:
Whether you want to call it that or not, is up to you. But do not turn around and make accusations of me trying to impose my beliefs upon anyone. I think it is clear to any intelligent individual who has been following this discussion that that is far from the truth.
I too will let reasonable people decide.
Quote:
Once again, I am not getting any further into the gay marriage debate here, it is off topic.
Agreed.
Quote:
I will discuss this with you in another thread should you choose to start it, but I will not debate you on this issue in a thread relating to the asinine insistence that everyone everywhere, regardless of their religious belief should wish everyone everywhere a Merry Christmas, even if the person they are wishing it to doesn’t celebrate the holiday. It makes no sense. It's illogical.
Again, you are characterising me as making an "asinine insistence that everyone everywhere, irregardless of their religious belief should wish everyone everywhere a Merry Christmas, even if the person they are wishing it to doesn’t celebrate the holiday."
Obviously, anyone who reads my statements will see that my only insistence is that Christians also have the right to object and that Christians should also vote wth their dollars.
Quote:
If there is any issue to be fought here by Christias, it should be the COMMERCIALIZATION of your sacred holiday,
Which we do.
Quote:
not that the companies which are exploiting your religious tradition of exchanging gifts (a tradition stolen from the Pagan religions, mind you)
Not true. It is a strictly Christian tradition. Just because pagans may have also done something similar does not mean we copied them.
However, even if we did, which we didn't, what's the harm? And, what do you care? You aren't Christian.
Quote:
say the holiday by name. You have the right to protest whatever you like- and I have the right to tell you that I think it’s ludicrous that of all things, THIS is a major issue for many Christians this time of year.
Actually, its not a MAJOR issue.. Its an annoyance. Its like someone coming to your birthday party and ignoring you. Or like someone, not the bride, coming to the wedding dressed all in white. Hey, its our [B]Holy Day[/B In fact, its our "Holy Season". If certain stores don't want to recognize it, we'll spend our dollars with those that will.
That;s freedom!
As for major issues. Feeding the hungry, caring for the sick and visiting the lonely. Those are major Christian issues.
Sincerely,
De Maria
