Ask Me Help Desk - Religion or not religion. That is the big Q

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Originally Posted by Geoff5

Personally, I think an all seeing , all powerful, all knowing, invisible god of any religion has finnaly been recognised by many people for what it truly is. An invention of man

On the contrary, science has found so many marvelous things and so amazing that it seems obvious to many, like myself, that only God could have created them.

Take for instance life. Even the smallest one celled creature is far too complex for man to create.

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with all his insecurities, the hope that his god will look after him in times of trouble. Well its time to wake up and I do believe modern man is starting to do so.

If you mean that he is waking up by shaking off his faith in God, I am of the opposite opinion. Those who decide to believe that God does not exist are closing their eyes to the facts.

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Of course theire are many religions and islam probably the faster growing, but its only growing because of peoples insecurities and the need to believe in something greater than themselves.

I think that if and when mankind starts to believe in themselves and their neibours a bit more, religion may go the way of the dodo, as it rightly should. Then we will be free of all its various shackles and doctrines, not to mention religious wars. Anyway, I`m a pagan.

You probably need to define the type of paganism which you claim, because the Pagans on this forum don't believe you.

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Any comments and responses welcomed.

Thanks for the offer.

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Oh, and it was the Christian faith that practically butchered the pagans in the past for how they lived and then stole most of the pagan festivals and icorperated them into Christian ones making them their own.

Actually, no. Jesus Christ established the Christian faith when He established the Catholic Church. No pagan festivals have been incorporated into the Christian faith.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Got to disagree with you, De Maria.

Christmas incorporates many of the aspects of Saturnalia--a pre-existing pagan celebration. Easter traditions (including a god dying and being resurrected) are based on several pagan FERTILITY traditions celebrated traditionally by pagans.

Granted, most of the pagan rituals I'm talking about were European/Western traditions--I don't know much about the Eastern pagan traditions. However, it was tradition and is historically noted that where holidays were already celebrated, the Romans simply added their traditions to the whole thing, and let people continue to celebrate. This didn't stop when Rome turned to Christianity. Saturnalia/the Celebration of Mithras/Christmas/the Winter Solstice--they didn't care what you called it for centuries.

Halloween/Samhain/All Hallow's Eve (and therefore All Saint's Day) is another major pagan holiday--one of our 8 Sabbats (which also include holidays around Christmas and Easter)--that has been given Christian flair. It's not as big now as it was a century or so ago, but most of the traditions around Halloween are pagan traditions.

Most scholars actually agree that while Christians are celebrating the holidays for their own reasons--the TRADITIONS associated with the holidays are most decidedly pagan, and were pre-empted as a way to ease conversions to Christianity.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Take for instance life. Even the smallest one celled creature is far too complex for man to create.

I don't think anyone here has claimed that man created one-celled creatures - or life.

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Originally Posted by Synnen

Most scholars actually agree that while Christians are celebrating the holidays for their own reasons--the TRADITIONS associated with the holidays are most decidedly pagan, and were pre-empted as a way to ease conversions to Christianity.

I don't think any literate Christian would disagree with you. Many of the Christian festivals were laid over pagan festivals as a way to bring people into Christianity and away from paganism. But I don't see anything wrong with that.

It was simply a means to bring pre-literate people into a faith that had much more to offer than primitive practices.

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Originally Posted by Geoff5

Well its time to wake up

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Yes by all means wake up you slumberer. You apparently think that your limited experience qualifies you to decide that God doesn't exist. I can tell you in an unqualifed way that he does exist and he isn't interested in religion, he told us long ago he isn't interested it ceremony, etc. However, he is interested in people, in relationship, and in getting us to change our ways.

The foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of man, so you are on a hiding to nothing if you think man can make it on his own

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Originally Posted by Athos

I don't think anyone here has claimed that man created one-celled creatures - or life.

Precisely my point. Man can't do it. Only God can.

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Originally Posted by Synnen

Got to disagree with you, De Maria.

Hi, hadn't seen your name in a long time.

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Christmas incorporates many of the aspects of Saturnalia--a pre-existing pagan celebration.

And because Saturnalia was celebrated before Christ was born, you assume what?

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Easter traditions (including a god dying and being resurrected) are based on several pagan FERTILITY traditions celebrated traditionally by pagans.

Easter is the English name given a very ancient Jewish celebration, the Passover. And that is what we celebrate during Easter, the Pasch, as it is known almost everywhere else in the world.

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Granted, most of the pagan rituals I'm talking about were European/Western traditions--I don't know much about the Eastern pagan traditions. However, it was tradition and is historically noted that where holidays were already celebrated, the Romans simply added their traditions to the whole thing, and let people continue to celebrate. This didn't stop when Rome turned to Christianity. Saturnalia/the Celebration of Mithras/Christmas/the Winter Solstice--they didn't care what you called it for centuries.

Christians did.

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Halloween/Samhain/All Hallow's Eve (and therefore All Saint's Day) is another major pagan holiday--one of our 8 Sabbats (which also include holidays around Christmas and Easter)--that has been given Christian flair. It's not as big now as it was a century or so ago, but most of the traditions around Halloween are pagan traditions.

Do you go to Mass on our Holy Day of Obligation?

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Most scholars actually agree that while Christians are celebrating the holidays for their own reasons--the TRADITIONS associated with the holidays are most decidedly pagan, and were pre-empted as a way to ease conversions to Christianity.

Perhaps. But that doesn't mean that Christianity came from Paganism as some allege (not you). The Holidays you have mentioned are three of our main Feastdays:

Easter, the Holiest and the one to which all others are oriented. The celebration of the Resurrection of Our Lord.

Christmas, the celebration of the Birth of Our Lord.

And All Saints day, the celebration of all those who died in a state of Grace and are now in heaven with our Lord.

And the dates were not set as you assume, because of the date of the pre existing Pagan holidays. They were set according to the ancient Jewish feast days.

March 25 was considered the first day of Creation (as in Genesis 1:5) by the Jews. 9 months from that date is the birth of Christ, the date of the New Creation.

Our Easter Sunday is a moving feast which falls on the date which the Church deems would have been the date of the Jewish Passover in the Old Covenant.

All Saints day was originally the first Sunday after Pentecost. Which would make it 57 days after Easter. However, Pope Gregory the Great changed the date to 1st of November. I can find no explanation for the change. Especially since the Samhain celebration you mentioned is Irish and the Pope was in Rome.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Easter is the English name given a very ancient Jewish celebration, the Passover. And that is what we celebrate during Easter, the Pasch, as it is known almost everywhere else in the world.

The English word "Easter", as I'm sure you know, is derived from "Oestre", a pagan term for a goddess - a good example of Christianity overlaying paganism. Not based on, but overlaying.

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March 25 was considered the first day of Creation (as in Genesis 1:5) by the Jews. 9 months from that date is the birth of Christ, the date of the New Creation.

How do you get March 25 out of Genesis 1:5?

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Especially since the Samhain celebration you mentioned is Irish and the Pope was in Rome.

You seem to be suggesting the Pope was unaware of Ireland. Not so.

I'm a Deist. I believe that something greater than man created the universe. Heck, I'll even call him God if that will make everyone happy. When God was done building his little project, he walked away and let us fend for ourselves.

To me, there's tons of evidence that a God that cares about his creation, doesn't exist.

Before the Christians start telling me why I'm wrong (in their opinion) just note that I've heard it all before and I don't agree.

The title of the thread is "Religion or not, that's the big Q". Well for me, organized religion is a big not.

There is so much of the unexplained here for me not to believe in something much bigger than us.

I do believe in a supreme being (higher power). I don't believe in the bible. I never have.

I don't preach to any one about their beliefs. I believe what I believe and people believe what they believe.

To each his own.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Hi, hadn't seen your name in a long time.

And because Saturnalia was celebrated before Christ was born, you assume what?

I assume that since the Saturnalia traditions are the ones STILL being used to celebrate Christmas now that the Christians "borrowed" pagan traditions and made them their own. Oh wait--they have no intention of giving them back. They STOLE those traditions, and used them to convert others to Christianity.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Easter is the English name given a very ancient Jewish celebration, the Passover. And that is what we celebrate during Easter, the Pasch, as it is known almost everywhere else in the world.

Easter and Passover are two very different things--and you know that full well. Or should, if you're Christian. At Easter, you celebrate the rebirth of the god (Christ), just as pagans do for the rebirth of THEIR god. Passover is the remembrance of the saving of the firstborn in the plagues of Egypt. TOTALLY different things there, honey.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Christians did.

Yeah... that's generally the problem. Christians DID care what it was called, and no one else did, so we let them have their way, and look where THAT got us. Next time I'll care what someone calls their god and celebrations. Oh wait... no I won't--because TOLERANCE for other religions and how they all basically celebrate the same stuff with different details is why I'm pagan and not Christian to begin with.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Do you go to Mass on our Holy Day of Obligation?

De Maria--I avoid mass as often as I can. Christian masses can sometimes be full of great energy and love, and then it's wonderful. Funerals and weddings are lovely, because everyone loves and supports everyone else in the church. The last few times I went to a Christian mass/service, though--the priest/pastor decided it was a good time to talk about the evils of non-Christians, and how Christians should do things that were outside of the law--like encourage prayer at football games. I could feel the energy excluding me, rather than asking me to join with the rest in love and harmony. Who wants to go through that? I'd go to church more if Christians left politics OUT of church and focused on love in the services instead of hate. Again, this is my experience with going to church.

Instead of the Holy Days of Obligation, I celebrate 8 Sabbats, that roughly correspond with quarters of the year. These are called the "sun" days. I also have twice a month celebrations in harmony with the new moon and the full moon.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Perhaps. But that doesn't mean that Christianity came from Paganism as some allege (not you). The Holidays you have mentioned are three of our main Feastdays:

Easter, the Holiest and the one to which all others are oriented. The celebration of the Resurrection of Our Lord.

Christmas, the celebration of the Birth of Our Lord.

And All Saints day, the celebration of all those who died in a state of Grace and are now in heaven with our Lord.

And the dates were not set as you assume, because of the date of the pre existing Pagan holidays. They were set according to the ancient Jewish feast days.

Sort of. Easter was celebrated around Passover for about 300 years, but then was moved to be the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox (determined to be March 20, regardless when the equinox actually falls).

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Originally Posted by De Maria

March 25 was considered the first day of Creation (as in Genesis 1:5) by the Jews. 9 months from that date is the birth of Christ, the date of the New Creation.

Actually, March 25th was considered New Year's day by part of Europe for a very long time. The reason? The vernal equinox. The Earth was reborn with spring, as evidenced by the new baby animals and the new growth, etc. No idea why the 25th, though. New year's was the vernal equinox for much of the WORLD prior to the middle ages. No idea where you got March 25th and the Bible together--there's nothing noting a date in the Bible for the day of creation. I have a feeling, though I can't do much research at the moment, that the March 25th date is counting 9 months BACKWARDS from Christmas--which would seriously explain what the heck my parents were doing 9 months before I was born (My birthday is Xmas Eve).

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Our Easter Sunday is a moving feast which falls on the date which the Church deems would have been the date of the Jewish Passover in the Old Covenant.

True. Or it USED to anyway. Now it's based on the Vernal Equinox. I have a feeling the reason it used to be at the time of Passover is because of the close links between Christianity and Judaism. I mean, until one baby was born and died, they were the same thing! So... it was a way to keep a familiar date as being celebrated, just for a new reason. That happens a LOT with Christianity. And regardless--the TRADITIONS are not of the Passover--they're of the celebration of the solstice and fertility traditions throughout Europe. Or do you have another explanation for the plethora of eggs and bunnies?

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Originally Posted by De Maria

All Saints day was originally the first Sunday after Pentecost. Which would make it 57 days after Easter. However, Pope Gregory the Great changed the date to 1st of November. I can find no explanation for the change. Especially since the Samhain celebration you mentioned is Irish and the Pope was in Rome.

All Saint's day commemorates all those who died and were purified and attained heaven. All Soul's day (Nov 2 or Nov 1, depending on tradition) celebrates those departed that have not yet attained heaven. Samhain (Nov 1) commemorates all those that were lost to us in the last year, and is also the first day of Winter. This is celebrated by the pagans I know on the night of Oct 31--All Hallow's Eve--in part because the Celtic day began at sundown the night before. So we celebrate Samhain at dusk on Oct 31. We offer a feast, we remember the dead, we pray for the safety of their souls. How is that different than commemorating Christian dead and martyrs and praying for the safe guidance of their souls to heaven?

There were different dates in history to commemorate saints--but eventually the Christian calendar moved it to Nov 1, because that's when the majority of the pagans were celebrating the same thing--again, a useful conversion tool.

I don't state that Christianity itself is based on pagan religions. Just that they stole our traditions for their own festivals--and it only irks me because they won't admit it :P

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Originally Posted by Synnen

I don't state that Christianity itself is based on pagan religions. Just that they stole our traditions for their own festivals--and it only irks me because they won't admit it :P

I admire your passion but it's common knowledge that Christianity "admits" the connection between some of their feast days and previous pagan celebrations. It's not news.

DeMaria, after all, is not Christianity. You're confusing the two. He has opinions, just like you have.

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Originally Posted by Athos

The English word "Easter", as I'm sure you know, is derived from "Oestre", a pagan term for a goddess - a good example of Christianity overlaying paganism. Not based on, but overlaying.

Ok.

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How do you get March 25 out of Genesis 1:5?

I made that connection from de pascha computus. Its hard to read, but that is where I'm getting my connection.

Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics - Google Books

Of course, they are forcing the frst day of Passover, a moving feast just like Easter, on 1st of April.

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You seem to be suggesting the Pope was unaware of Ireland. Not so.

I'm sure he was aware of Ireland. But there would be no reason for him to change the date of a universal holy day of obligation to suit a minority of believers on a remote island.

Of course, that's not absolute proof, but it seems a bit of a stretch to me.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by Synnen

I assume that since the Saturnalia traditions are the ones STILL being used to celebrate Christmas now that the Christians "borrowed" pagan traditions and made them their own. Oh wait--they have no intention of giving them back. They STOLE those traditions, and used them to convert others to Christianity.

You've yet to give any specifics. Which traditions were stolen?

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Easter and Passover are two very different things--and you know that full well.

1 Corinthians 5:7
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Easter is the English name for the Christian Passover. In every other language, the name Passover is retained.

Spanish - Pascua
# Greek - Paskha
# Bulgarian - Paskha
# Danish - Paaske
# Dutch - Pasen
# Finnish - Pääsiäinen
# French - Pâques
# Indonesian - Paskah

It is the day that we celebrate the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, who was crucified on the eve of the Passover:

Matthew 26:2
Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

John 19:13-15 (King James Version)

13When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha. 14And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
15But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

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Or should, if you're Christian.

I am Christian and I know that the Easter celebration is the celebration of the Christian Passover.

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At Easter, you celebrate the rebirth of the god (Christ), just as pagans do for the rebirth of THEIR god.

On the contrary, we celebrate the RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ. Not His rebirth.

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Passover is the remembrance of the saving of the firstborn in the plagues of Egypt. TOTALLY different things there, honey.

Not quite. Passover is the saving of the Jews from slavery to Pharaoh. Easter is the celebration of the saving of the Christians from slavery to Satan.

During the Passover, lambs were sacrificed which had to be eaten and their blood marked the door posts so the Angel of Death would PASSOVER them and not touch those within those doors.

On the day before He died, Jesus established the Mass which is the celebration of His death and resurrection on the Cross. During this celebration we eat the flesh of the Lamb of God and drink His blood so that the Death of Sin will pass us over.

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Yeah... that's generally the problem. Christians DID care what it was called, and no one else did, so we let them have their way, and look where THAT got us. Next time I'll care what someone calls their god and celebrations. Oh wait... no I won't--because TOLERANCE for other religions and how they all basically celebrate the same stuff with different details is why I'm pagan and not Christian to begin with.

Since you are pagan, I assume you celebrate your pagan traditions. Why do you therefore claim that they have been stolen from you?

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De Maria--I avoid mass as often as I can.

I think my point was that we, Catholics, celebrate the Christian Holy day of obligation called the All Saints Day, by attending Mass.

I know that there are all types of other traditions added by the folk to celebrate Halloween, but those are not taught by the Church. Those are cultural traditions based upon the culture of the area. They are not taught by the Church.

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Christian masses can sometimes be full of great energy and love, and then it's wonderful. Funerals and weddings are lovely, because everyone loves and supports everyone else in the church. The last few times I went to a Christian mass/service, though--the priest/pastor decided it was a good time to talk about the evils of non-Christians, and how Christians should do things that were outside of the law--like encourage prayer at football games. I could feel the energy excluding me, rather than asking me to join with the rest in love and harmony. Who wants to go through that? I'd go to church more if Christians left politics OUT of church and focused on love in the services instead of hate. Again, this is my experience with going to church.

I'm sorry you felt that way. But the fact is that Mass is for Catholics. Faith in the Catholic Church is assumed.

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Instead of the Holy Days of Obligation, I celebrate 8 Sabbats, that roughly correspond with quarters of the year. These are called the "sun" days. I also have twice a month celebrations in harmony with the new moon and the full moon.

Sort of. Easter was celebrated around Passover for about 300 years, but then was moved to be the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox (determined to be March 20, regardless when the equinox actually falls).

Actually, March 25th was considered New Year's day by part of Europe for a very long time. The reason? The vernal equinox. The Earth was reborn with spring, as evidenced by the new baby animals and the new growth, etc. No idea why the 25th, though. New year's was the vernal equinox for much of the WORLD prior to the middle ages. No idea where you got March 25th and the Bible together--there's nothing noting a date in the Bible for the day of creation.

I posted the source on the other response right before this one. It is called de pascha calculus or something like that. Its complicated but the New Year is assumed to be April 1 and counting backward gets March 25.

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I have a feeling, though I can't do much research at the moment, that the March 25th date is counting 9 months BACKWARDS from Christmas--which would seriously explain what the heck my parents were doing 9 months before I was born (My birthday is Xmas Eve).

Very cool! My mother-in-law got all kinds of extra presents on her birthday/Christmas. Of course, she had 9 girls. It might have been different if she'd had 9 boys. They tend to be stingier.

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True. Or it USED to anyway. Now it's based on the Vernal Equinox. I have a feeling the reason it used to be at the time of Passover is because of the close links between Christianity and Judaism. I mean, until one baby was born and died, they were the same thing! So... it was a way to keep a familiar date as being celebrated, just for a new reason. That happens a LOT with Christianity. And regardless--the TRADITIONS are not of the Passover--they're of the celebration of the solstice and fertility traditions throughout Europe. Or do you have another explanation for the plethora of eggs and bunnies?

Those are cultural traditions. They are not taught by the Church. On Christmas and Easter, we celebrate the Mass.

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All Saint's day commemorates all those who died and were purified and attained heaven. All Soul's day (Nov 2 or Nov 1, depending on tradition) celebrates those departed that have not yet attained heaven. Samhain (Nov 1) commemorates all those that were lost to us in the last year, and is also the first day of Winter. This is celebrated by the pagans I know on the night of Oct 31--All Hallow's Eve--in part because the Celtic day began at sundown the night before. So we celebrate Samhain at dusk on Oct 31. We offer a feast, we remember the dead, we pray for the safety of their souls. How is that different than commemorating Christian dead and martyrs and praying for the safe guidance of their souls to heaven?

I don't know. But I find it hard to believe that the Pope in Italy would move an existing holiday in order to be consistent with a local holiday celebrated by one minority group of Christians in a remote area.

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There were different dates in history to commemorate saints--but eventually the Christian calendar moved it to Nov 1, because that's when the majority of the pagans were celebrating the same thing--again, a useful conversion tool.

I don't state that Christianity itself is based on pagan religions. Just that they stole our traditions for their own festivals--and it only irks me because they won't admit it :P

I don't see how the word "stolen" is appropriate since you can still celebrate your traditions anytime you like.

The word "copied" might be in order, if that were true. But since we have perfectly good reasons for celebrating our festivals based upon the Supernatural Revelations of our God, I don't think that is appropriate either.

As for celebrating them on the same day, well, I don't think anyone can lay claim to any day, can they?

Apparently, one group is celebrating Kwanzaa on Dec 25. Is anyone claiming they stole Christmas?