Ask Me Help Desk - John 6:44 Jesus says You can only come to me if you are drawn to me by the father.

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

... See my last answer to find out why man thinks the way he does.

Your last answer was a false conclusion drawn by false premises. See my response to that answer.

However, here you are coming to more false conclusions:

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If faith is grace , and grace is a gift of GOD which we can not earn by our own actions,then the works that justifies man must be an action caused by the brain of man.

This is a non sequitur. The works that justify man are explained in Scripture in the Ten Commandments, and in the Corporal works of mercy (Matt 25 and James 1).

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Seemy last answer to you.

Already did.

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It then follows that not faith is a type of GOD'S GRACE

Scripture says so:
1 Corinthians 12:8-10 (King James Version)

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

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but the good works he does are a product of the way he thinks .

Which if he is a Christian are a product of his faith in Christ.

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

Look at his writings in the latter part of his life. He said "man lost his free will by the fall of Adam" actually that because of the" original sin was so strong it overcomes man's free wll. Also look at what The council of orange's position on predestination . That was the official HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH'S position as of that date. Also look at my previous answer about why we should return to THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH as we profess to beleive in the NICENE CREED. Let's get rid of any national adjective and return to the ONE TRUE CHURCH

Provide the reference. I'm not familiar with that quote.
This is HIS title to chapter 3:
Chapter 3.— Sinners are Convicted When Attempting to Excuse Themselves by Blaming God, Because They Have Free Will.

CHURCH FATHERS: On Grace and Free Will (St. Augustine)

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Originally Posted by De Maria

There is no such doctrine in the Bible.

Of course there isn't. James' audience invented it out of whole cloth so they wouldn't have to do any works (as thank yous to God), and were a bunch of whiners.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Of course there isn't. James' audience invented it out of whole cloth so they wouldn't have to do any works (as thank yous to God),

On the contrary, St. James is telling them that works are necessary in order to be justified.

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and were a bunch of whiners.

Let me understand, you don't believe in salvation by faith alone. But you believe in justification by faith alone?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Well, Charlie, you are wrong -- totally incorrect. He wasn't a bishop, and there were only 95 theses. Don't mess with someone (me) who has been Lutheran since her first breath and who was born on his birthday (but in a different year).

Writing in caps is rude and indicates you are shouting. Are you?

NO! My name is not Charlie. I stand corrected on the 95. But you must admit I was close. He may not of been a Bishop in the Lutheran Church but HE WAS A BISHOP IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH before the PROTEST. Check that out in a history book and also in his Bio.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

On the contrary, St. James is telling them that works are necessary in order to be justified.

No, he isn't. He's using the literary device of paradox.

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Let me understand, you don't believe in salvation by faith alone. But you believe in justification by faith alone?

And the difference between them is?

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

HE WAS A BISHOP IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH before the PROTEST. Check that out in a history book and also in his Bio.

No, he wasn't. Please cite at least one source.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I suggest you read St. Augustine more closely. He is thoroughly Catholic and believes in the Catholic doctrine of predestination.

Yes he was thoroughy Catholic and wrote in his Confessions the Church's doctrine was right but as I have pointed out that was like Gallieo's rejection of the theory "the earth revovles around the sun" The Church had great power over everyone and could force them to issue any denial of any truth. St.Augustine ended up believing THAT MAN HAD BEEN GIVEN FREE WILL but lost it when Adam ate from the TREE OF KNOWLEDGE. He lost it because he disobeyd GOD.Could this of been because the knowledge Adam gained might allow he to disagree with GOD? And possibly make a good argument as to what actions he should undertake?Read the historical bio's of St. Augustine. Please believe your answers may be the true ones and mine may be the true ones,but I don't we will find in our life time and maybe never.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

You're mixing apples and oranges. The fact that some will disobey God is an affirmation of free will. It is because they freely chose to disobey
God that they were condemned.

It is by God's grace, but not by God's grace alone.

Scripture says:
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

You see, faith is the grace by which we are saved. By this I don't mean to insinuate faith ALONE. However, faith is a grace and it is a gift of God. And without faith we won't be saved.

But faith is a particular kind of grace which must be exercised. And faith is exercised in the will. Therefore we must will to exercise faith and when we do we combine with faith our cooperation which takes the form of works. And therefore Scripture says:
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

No he is saved by faith and any of GOD'S Graces. It is GOD'S CHOICE not ours of which graces HE gives us . It is also HIS choice on how we act because HE controls our environment that develops our brain. So you see man makes his choices completely directed by GOD

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

No, he isn't. He's using the literary device of paradox.

I don't know what leads you to that conclusion. He says:
James 2
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

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And the difference between them is?

Between salvation and justification?

Justification is the cleansing of the soul making us right with God in this life and it leads to salvation if we persevere in that state of being.

Salvation is final perseverance in a state of grace maintained by faith and good works to eternal life in heaven.

Ok, well let me ask you this, are we required to work in thanksgiving to God after He justifies us by faith alone?

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

Yes he was thoroughy Catholic and wrote in his Confessions the Church's doctrine was right but as I have pointed out that was like Gallieo's rejection of the theory "the earth revovles around the sun" The Church had great power over everyone and could force them to issue any denial of any truth. St.Augustine ended up beleiving THAT MAN HAD BEEN GIVEN FREE WILL but lost it when Adam ate from the TREE OF KNOWLEDGE. He lost it because he disobeyd GOD.Could this of been because the knowledge Adam gained might allow he to disagree with GOD? And possibly make a good arguement as to what actions he should undertake?Read the historical bio's of St. Augustine. Please beleive your answers may be the true ones and mine may be the true ones,but I don't we will find in our life time and maybe never.

Ok, I guess we agree to disagree. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

No he is saved by faith and any of GOD'S Graces. It is GOD'S CHOICE not ours of which graces HE gives us . It is also HIS choice on how we act because HE controls our enviroment that develops our brain. So you see man makes his choices completly directed by GOD

But faith without works, is dead.
James 2:
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

He's using the literary device of paradox.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I don't know what leads you to that conclusion.

The same questioning mind that causes me to examine why the Psalmist says in Ps. 98:8 that the floods clap their hands.

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Ok, well let me ask you this, are we required to work in thanksgiving to God after He justifies us by faith alone?

Grace is free. We do good works as our thanks to God for His love and mercy.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

The same questioning mind that causes me to examine why the Psalmist says in Ps. 98:8 that the floods clap their hands.

I don't see any mention of floods in James 2. Nor any inanimate objects clapping their hands.

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Grace is free. We do good works as our thanks to God for His love and mercy.

What would happen if we did not give thanks to God for His love and mercy?

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I don't see any mention of floods in James 2. Nor any inanimate objects clapping their hands.

Apparently you didn't read what I had said about the floods.

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What would happen if we did not give thanks to God for His love and mercy?

Are you with me that grace is free, and we don't have to do any work for it to earn it?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Apparently you didn't read what I had said about the floods.

Are you with me that grace is free, and we don't have to do any work for it to earn it?

Yes. That's Catholic Teaching. But it is also Catholic Teaching that we won't receive the grace of salvation if we don't obey Christ.

So, What would happen if we did not give thanks to God for His love and mercy?

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Yes. That's Catholic Teaching. But it is also Catholic Teaching that we won't receive the grace of salvation if we don't obey Christ.

Before I answer, I'd like an explanation of what "obey Christ" means.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Before I answer, I'd like an explanation of what "obey Christ" means.

To obey Christ means to keep the Commandments of God:
John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

To obey Christ means to keep the Commandments of God:
John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

And if I do that, my reward will be what?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

And if I do that, my reward will be what?

God will manifest Himself to you. In other words, salvation.

Enjoyed the dance, Wondergirl. But I've got an early day tomorrow.

Goodnight.