Ask Me Help Desk - Why I believe in Deism

Quote:

Originally Posted by elscarta

But Altenweg gives as the main reason for her believing in Deism "is the suffering in the world, the hardship. If there was a caring God then he wouldn't allow his children to suffer the way they do." This is at the same "It just doesn't seem right" level and so Elliot's question "Can you explain WHY G-d would do such a thing?" is valid and needs to be asnwered.

I disagree that this is a better question. It argues that an omniscient and omnipotent God should be able to create a perfect world, and since the world is far from perfect, even after millions upon millions of years, therefore an omniscient and omnipotent God cannot exist. But really what it argues is that "If the ultimate goal of an omniscient and omnipotent God is a perfect world then since the world is far from perfect even after millions upon millions of years such a God has had more than enough time to create a perfect world and therefore cannot exist."

Two problems I see with this question are:
How do we know what are the ultimate goal(s) of an omniscient and omnipotent God?
Millions upon millions of years is infinitesimally small compared to eternity so what is an appropriate time frame for achieving the ultimate goal(s)?

Yes, I see the point. But what if the goals of an omniscient and omnipotent god are not good? What if god is not good? Then what? Are we to worship god merely because he is more powerful than anything else in our world? Are we not to hold him to the same moral standards of everyone else? If not, then why not? These are particularly important questions I recall Bertrand Russell asking but ones I see rarely addressed.

Another excellent reason to embrace deism: if god is not good but does not intervene in human affairs it really doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Altenweg,

Can you explain WHY G-d would do such a thing?

Why would he create this emmense, incredibly intricate and complex universe, and then walk away from it completely?

Why would the "Watchmaker" make the most incredible watch ever built, and never use it, look at it, check it, wind it, repair it, keep it shiny or show it to others?

That's the part that gets me most about Deism... the idea that a super-intelligent being with ultimate powers could and did create a universe, just to walk away from it after doing so... for absolutely no discernable purpose.

Elliot

Hi Elliot,

Sorry that it took so long to get back to you, for some reason I wasn't getting notifications for this thread. :(

No, I don't know why God created the world and walked away. I don't even know if he did. My belief in Deism is just that, belief. Yes, it is a belief that I based on research but not research that definitely points to Deism. There is no absolute proof that my belief is right, it's just my belief.

Having said that, my answer is based on that belief, not on fact, because there are no facts, not for Deism or any other belief.

Why would God create something as wonderful as this world and then walk away? Well, he's God, a God. Why would I build a bird house and then never watch it to see who comes to use it? Because I can. Why would I start an ant farm then leave it alone to see what happens? Because I can. Creation doesn't mean love. You don't have to love something in order to create it. You don't have to nurture something after you've created it. It's a choice. My belief is that God chose to create and then leave.

There simply isn't any evidence that a loving, caring God exists. Belief in God is just that, belief. To base that belief on a man written book is at least as questionable as my belief. There simply isn't any proof.

Deism makes sense to me. I can keep the belief in God while also making sense of the hardship in this world, the lack of proof that God really does care. In a lot of ways I have the best of both worlds, but I know most of you don't see it that way.

If none of this makes sense please forgive me, I ran out of coffee this morning so I'm drinking tea. It simply doesn't have the same kick. ;)

Quote:

But Altenweg gives as the main reason for her believing in Deism "is the suffering in the world, the hardship. If there was a caring God then he wouldn't allow his children to suffer the way they do." This is at the same "It just doesn't seem right" level and so Elliot's question "Can you explain WHY G-d would do such a thing?" is valid and needs to be asnwered.

My question is as simply as yours.

Why would God allow all the suffering?

No one has ever been able to answer this questions sufficiently. All I ever hear as a response to this question is that we're supposed to suffer in order to gain eternal life in heaven.

That makes no sense. Why would a caring loving God make us prove our love for Him by making us suffer?

It's a test. A cruel, impossible test. No one can hope to live up to the standards that the stories of the bible teach. No living human can hope to achieve the perfection that God apparently wants. Oh, but believe and you will be forgiven. Go to church every Sunday, confess your sins, repent for raping your neighbors child, beg forgiveness for cheating on your taxes, say you're sorry for beating your wife and all will be forgiven.

I live my life differently. You see, I only have to answer to myself and my family, to the people around me. I'm not perfect, but I don't rely on a God for forgiveness of my sins, therefore I do my best not to sin in the first place. No, I don't always succeed, but I don't always fail either. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altenweg

Why would God allow all the suffering?

Let me answer this question with another question. How much do you value your freedom to make your own decisions about anything and everything in your life, your beliefs, thoughts, actions etc?

Free will necessitates a world where suffering is possible, as one of the possible choices that can be made is the hurting of other people.

I'm not saying that free will is the only reason or cause of suffering, just that it is part of it.

You also have mentioned in a previous post, some of the suffering that you have been through in your life. In what way has this suffering affected you, besides changing your belief about God? Has it made you a stronger person, more protective of your family?

Quote:

Originally Posted by elscarta

Let me answer this question with another question. How much do you value your freedom to make your own decisions about anything and everything in your life, your beliefs, thoughts, actions etc?

Free will necessitates a world where suffering is possible, as one of the possible choices that can be made is the hurting of other people.

I'm not saying that free will is the only reason or cause of suffering, just that it is part of it.

You also have mentioned in a previous post, some of the suffering that you have been through in your life. In what way has this suffering affected you, besides changing your belief about God? Has it made you a stronger person, more protective of your family?

My suffering has made me a hard person in many ways. I've put a protective shell around my heart that very few can penetrate. Sadly, I've been told I'm not as tough as I think I am.

The only thing that my suffering has done is made me weary of everything around me. My daughter is 7 years old now, two years older then I was when I was molested. My husband and I don't go out without the kids, there's only one person I trust to watch them and he lives 1 hour away and works most weekends. I'm overly protective in a lot of ways, but I know what monsters lurk in shadows, I won't allow myself to let my guard down. No one is above suspicion, I will not let my children become victims.

I know that one day I will die of cancer. It's inevitable. The sad thing is, both my husband and I have passed those genes to our kids. Both sets of parents died of this disease and it's likely my children will lose their parents to this disease as well.

Yes, my suffering has made me stronger, but I wouldn't wish that "strength" on anyone. What I learned is the worst lesson of all. I found the strength to survive, because I had to, but I'm not a better person for it, not at all.

We can ultimately believe anything and have right to but how can you believe without some sort of faith even if it is blind and not timed? No proof; just faith - to some it is next to impossible and so believe in the theory of logic's, facts – science and to others books and idols. Some believe in both science and universe theories. I am Catholic and I did look into other religions and found that I couldn't be anything more then Catholic in the end. Every religion has rituals, beliefs and some are wonderful to experience. I researched tid-bits into Buddhism, Hinduism, Law of Attraction, Lutheran, Christian and Spiritualist (New Movement), oh and of course the Divinity tools available by psychics (which is like Mediumship, Tarots…etc).

Just my words and thoughts to this wonderful exchange of ideas, being Catholic, and as you all know, as per the Bible, God did create the world and rested on the seventh day (Sunday or Sabbath Day – day of rest/holiness). Since Eve bit the apple then sin began (temptation). It states that we are all born in sin. If we are born sinful then so is the world we live in. God was not impressed and ended up burning a city down, condemned the wicked/pagans etc. Later he flooded the world and washed the sins of man away. After this, he said that he would never flood the world again or interfere with mankind because he loved his creation. He also made us special from all the creatures and gave us the ability to advance (we advanced technologically and scientifically) and that we each have spirit (Life after Death). We have come to the place in life we are; all the good and bad because of the mass movement of ideas and intentions. We also have our history in which we document and learn from and continue to educate new generations in hope that they will succeed where previous have failed. We all live here with purpose. We have choice.

As for God not caring, he does care, care enough not to destroy us but let us destroy ourselves. Yes, in the Catholic religion, God should be loved, respected and feared. We are destructive and unfortunately everyone gets hurt. But the pain we experience here is a test of faith it is apart of the great plan and those that suffer will not suffer but be rewarded with the promise of God - Heaven. The plagues and everything in the Revolutions can be interpreted many, many ways and our end could just be our own demise. As it goes for natural disasters…there is talk about the sun having explosions on the surface (which there is a technical name for but I am NO scientist), earth shifting, poles melting, us utilizing natural resources (jungles, forests, coal, oil, crops – land) the ozone layer being depleted because of garbage, pollution and testing nuclear bombs? The Gay community was plagued by AIDS, the general public was plagued by AIDS, expecting mothers, those committing in unnatural sex (bestiality, child molestation, prostitution…everything) all mankind is infected by STI's and AID's and every other plague because of these sins and because we are at the bottom of the food chain (after viruses)…and Because of God? Or because of us as mankind? Look at T.V. Jerry Springer, Maury Povich, Steve Wilkos…and so on and so on…why shouldn't we be destroyed? We even thrive off other peoples failures! But still there are some very wonderful things about our world and that is what we should all focus on and preserve. Like a expectant mother, giving life, a flower blooming in the spring, the compassion, family and good people. It looks really bleak but there is good. God exists in you if you believe he does…have faith that he does. He also exists if you do and live honestly…that is the proof – the good in us; the beauty of the world around us physically and how much joy and peace we feel just from one moment... maybe a moment you will carry with you and go to when things just are not going right... its the one experience that keeps you going. But God does know we are doomed... the beauty of it is his patience and ability to forgive as well as our ability to repent and reject sin.

As it goes for the concept of “what if the goals of an omniscient and omnipotent god are not good? What if god is not good? Then what?” It is not the goals of God but the goals of man. Here we can choose to follow the Laws of God but we have no choice but to follow the Law of Man. We are always trying to invent, make life easy, advance technologically, learn, evolve and experience the world and the universe and thus equip ourselves with knowledge tools (space rockets) to obtain the means of understanding our world and that surrounding it. It is the documented history of technology, wars, hardships, misunderstandings or human error, intelligence versus the ego and hate (which is actually fear) which leads to religious debates, genocide, racists, sexists, wars, politics, law, law enforcement, control and weapons. I kind of lean to the fact that we are trying to create a perfect world but we fail to look at the fact that being imperfect is a beautiful thing…look at everything we can share and learn. I don't know…maybe I am out of line, I just like to point out our own flaws instead of blaming someone, something or everything or anything for our mistakes.

As it goes for the “Book”, honestly, it is listed in time line from apostles to profits, to people like you and me that tell a story. Could it have been based on facts? Or has it been told so many times that is changed from Old to New Testament and Revised? Should we believe? Has the truth been lost? What validation do we need? Where did it originate from and why? We could ask questions or we can have faith in what is being said is true? Our choice. What I do believe is the Bible holds lessons and actually a lot of it is common sense about how we should treat each other, I go by that, but I also have a special relationship with God as well. So from each individual to another it will differ…here is another one, note that there are some remarks that are sexist in the bible like when men talk about God a woman should not discuss it between men – she should hold her tongue (this is why priests are men and not women). Also, that a man should not have sex with us when we are on our period because we are sinful then…as well as 6 weeks after birth. Eve bit the apple so her punishment is ours. Like if one person breaks man made Law then new Laws become evolved to add preventive measures - just because one person carries a gun and commits a crime an innocent, law abiding citizen can not carry a gun because of what someone else done (which of course I don't agree with carrying a gun)... maybe a bad example but I know you got the point. A lot of interesting stuff and in some way it does make sense but again, we choose. History, what a lovely concept but we are slowly getting smarter…that is if we stop being driven by fear and take responsibility. We know that is the impossible.

So as brothers and sisters we should believe and have faith in God, even a deist believes in something – it might not be the Virgin Mary or Jesus Christ but you believe in God. If he created the Universe and everything in it, you, then you should believe in him and trust that he will not destroy something he created nor ignore it…he will and has endowed us to be sinful and to make choices. He hears our prayers but if he solved everything for us then what could we possibly learn? What mankind does to mankind effects everyone and we are to blame ourselves. No one can tell you what not or what to believe in. Unfortunately, everyone defends their faith but we should do everything with love and compassion. Maybe religion is constructed to breed fear in misbehavior of what is morally right? But then again, people are entitled to believe and they also are entitled not to. Maybe I am an idealist or a humanitarian…my thoughts.

Yes I type really fast :) - hehe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altenweg

Why would I build a bird house and then never watch it to see who comes to use it? Because I can. Why would I start an ant farm then leave it alone to see what happens? Because I can.

Regarding the ant farm, do you know of anyone who has started an ant farm and then left them all to die from starvation as this would be the result if you were to just walk away from it? Also what would that say about the morality of the person who did it? (If you don't think it is a problem to do it to insects then imagine doing the same to mice or cats etc)

Quote:

Originally Posted by elscarta

Regarding the ant farm, do you know of anyone who has started an ant farm and then left them all to die from starvation as this would be the end result if you were to just walk away from it? Also what would that say about the morality of the person who did it? (If you don't think it is a problem to do it to insects then imagine doing the same to mice or cats etc)

Of course they are going to die, they have no natural resources... we do. We where given everything for survival... poor ants they are in a glass relying on the owner to provide.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elscarta

Regarding the ant farm, do you know of anyone who has started an ant farm and then left them all to die from starvation as this would be the end result if you were to just walk away from it? Also what would that say about the morality of the person who did it? (If you don't think it is a problem to do it to insects then imagine doing the same to mice or cats etc)

Okay, the ant farm was a bad example. The bird house is more apt.

Having said that, I have built a bird house, a really nice one I might add, and then walked away. I assume that birds have lived in it, they may even enjoy it. I don't know because I never checked. I built it for the birds, not so that I could nurture and care for them, but because I wanted to build it. What they do with it now that it's built is up to them and none of my concern. I'm just the creator.

In your post you seem to think that God is moral. Of course I have a problem with people who harm any living thing, except flies and mosquitos, they're fair game. ;) The thing is, your moral God hurts the people he's supposed to care about all the time. Is cancer not cruel? How about aids? Murder isn't a fun way to die but he allows it to happen. There are people starving every day, people that live on the streets, why does God allow them to die?

I'm actually being far kinder to the idea of God then you are. You see, I believe in the bird house where you actually do believe in the ant farm. The only difference is, in your ant farm he doesn't walk away, he's actually very involved, sees their pain and does nothing about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altenweg

My suffering has made me a hard person in many ways. I've put a protective shell around my heart that very few can penetrate. Sadly, I've been told I'm not as tough as I think I am.

The only thing that my suffering has done is made me weary of everything around me. My daughter is 7 years old now, two years older then I was when I was molested. My husband and I don't go out without the kids, there's only one person I trust to watch them and he lives 1 hour away and works most weekends. I'm overly protective in a lot of ways, but I know what monsters lurk in shadows, I won't allow myself to let my guard down. No one is above suspicion, I will not let my children become victims.

I know that one day I will die of cancer. It's inevitable. The sad thing is, both my husband and I have passed those genes to our kids. Both sets of parents died of this disease and it's likely my children will lose their parents to this disease as well.

Yes, my suffering has made me stronger, but I wouldn't wish that "strength" on anyone. What I learned is the worst lesson of all. I found the strength to survive, because I had to, but I'm not a better person for it, not at all.

In death there is rebirth. I am sorry for your suffering. I have been told by many elders that the closer you are to death; the closer you become to God. Only when you can face death; you can truly live. You are truly a remarkable person.

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Originally Posted by xoxaprilwine

Only when you can face death; you can truly live.

You don't think one can truly live without facing death first?

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

You don't think one can truly live without facing death first?

Well you can live... but you can live without purpose... or you can live for the future and not today... we grope about how life sucks when we should embrace it, learn and grow from it. Until you "understand" death that you will truly appreciate the essence of life. Death not being literal because we are living and so if we must literally die before we live... then we where doomed to begin with :). But death in a sense of letting something go in order to receive the truth... enlightenment. Like death of an old idea/friendship/life change - people, place or thing only to allow for the new (rebirth) opportunity or understanding. Once we realize how fragile we actually are do we really appreciate everything we know and have come to have or understand.

Birth - Death - Rebirth

I know how fragile we are. I don't need to "to receive the truth" (which means nothing really) in order to live for today and tomorrow. If religion gives you a purpose to keep on living them that works for you. Not everyone needs that though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altenweg

The thing is, your moral God hurts the people he's supposed to care about all the time. Is cancer not cruel? How about aids? Murder isn't a fun way to die but he allows it to happen. There are people starving every day, people that live on the streets, why does God allow them to die?

This is the wrong premise that you are belaboring. God doesn't hurt. He is only Love. We have caused the hurt. We continue to cause the hurt. The universe is stuck in hurt because of us.

You said, "There are people starving every day, people that live on the streets" and asked "Why does God allow them to die?" The real question, the correct question is, "Why do we allow them to die?"

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

The real question, the correct question is, "Why do we allow them to die?"

Have you seen any of the US Healthcare discussions on this board? Truly disheartening. :(

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

This is the wrong premise that you are belaboring. God doesn't hurt. He is only Love. We have caused the hurt. We continue to cause the hurt. The universe is stuck in hurt because of us.

You said, "There are people starving every day, people that live on the streets" and asked "Why does God allow them to die?" The real question, the correct question is, "Why do we allow them to die?"

True, we can do something about the starving people, but disease, that is not of our making. Cancer is not something we can do anything about, otherwise we would.

God giving his children cancer is the same thing as the creator of the ant farm burning the ants with a magnifying glass. It's destruction. How can a loving God destroy what he claims to love?

There are many things in this world that we can change, but for things that we can't, you have to ask, why does God allow it if he really cares?

Cancer proves my belief more then anything else. At least to me it does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I know how fragile we are. I don't need to "to receive the truth" (which means nothing really) in order to live for today and tomorrow. If religion gives you a purpose to keep on living them that works for you. Not everyone needs that though.

The concept of Birth, Death to Rebirth is anything but Religious... it is a concept. I don't recall involving religion in that particular post. Though when you talk about God it is hard not to bring up the discussion of Religion/Theories/Concepts/Science - being Deist, Catholic, Protestant or believing in the Karmic Law... whatever. In my last post I did but if you read it (which is I imagine is exhaustively long :)) you would actually see that I agree with you on what works for you works for you. No doubt you know how fragile life is... sorry if you took it the wrong way; maybe I should have said it without it being a statement? Sorry anyway it wasn't said the way you might have thought I intended it to be understood.

Peace

Everything happening around the world points us to the fact that we are here only for a little while, whether we die naturally without pain or in suffering.

Those of us who is ill, appreciates life more and values relationships more than those who think we have until we are 100 to form our bonds and show we care.

About some of our sufferings.

Famines,droughts are more common now because the whole world has been depleting the natural resources available to the whole world.
The natural world is not unaffected just because I am cutting down thousands of trees in a far far away land without replenishing whatever I take.

The rainwater,oceans,rivers everything did not become polluted on its own spreading diseases far and wide. It was our dumping of chemicals in one tiny bit of ocean at a time that has reached worldwide consequences.

Hunting,fishing in a wasteful way using methods that cause destruction to the environment has made our food chain weak.

Our greed for money has made us feed chemicals to our livestocks, crops, and this in turn has helped mutate so many diseases from our own food chain into our bodies.

AIDs and related diseases spread more through sexual activities and for those of us who are monotheists have guidelines to not take sex casually, that it be within marital boundaries.

From a monotheists view, I believe we were given guidelines on what to do and what not to do, yet we ignored all of it and went on feeding our baser selves and the consequences are not just effecting us, but everyone else who shares the very air we breathe (even that we have poisoned with our own doings ).

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Have you seen any of the US Healthcare discussions on this board? Truly disheartening. :(

Yes, it truly is disheartening that so many people think that the US government is going to take care of their health care after seeing the mess that the same government has made of Medicare, Medicaid, the VA Medical System, the Native American Health System, Social Security, the US Postal Service, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, the USDA, and NASA... and pretty much every other organization that it has created. The blind faith in the government's ability and desire to help us in the face of all the evidence otherwise is very disheartening.

Frankly, it's easier to put your faith in an all-powerful G-d than it is to put your faith in an all-powerful government.

Elliot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altenweg

True, we can do something about the starving people, but disease, that is not of our making. Cancer is not something we can do anything about, otherwise we would.

Of course, cancer IS something we can do anything about! God has given us brains and analytical abilities in order to fight and defeat cancer... and AIDS and CP and MS and ALS and the other letter combinations in the alphabet soup of diseases. And medical research has already found ways to lengthen the life of and even cure those who have diseases.

Quote:

God giving his children cancer

God is not the source of cancer.