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Joe,Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
I don't remember anyone saying that is was solely a Catholic problem, but just as when we were all kids, the argument that "Jimmy did it - why can't I?" didn't fly, it still does not fly especially for such an important issue as child abuse. Pointing fingers at someone else does not lessen the problem that we are discussing, it merely appears to be a strategy of distraction rather than acknowledging and dealing with the issue.
Thank you for providing these links. I was reading them but had to stop as it was just too disgusting to read on. Doesn't matter if they are catholics, baptists, boy scout leaders, teachers, or who ever. What matters is that any organization take the responsibility to make sure their house is clean , and when they discover it is not, don't stand for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
The point is that you and those who have supported you here are bigoted hypocrites.Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
The shame is that you would use the sufferings of others as weapons to attack the Catholic Church.
I don't think it appropriate to attack those who were subject to abuse, or gthose concerned about abuse.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
What I have seen on here is an attack on the behaviour, which would be wrong no matter who did it. You, on the other hand, tried to deflect the issue away from the topic at hand, which is a current major news item. If next week a different church is involved, then the focus will appropriately be there.Quote:
The shame is that you would use the sufferings of others as weapons to attack the Catholic Church.
I think I pointed out that it didn't matter if you were catholic, baptist or whatever else, any abuse that is overlooked by it's members is a bad thing. Why so defensive about the catholic church? Does it not have a defense?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Still with you TJ:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Joe would you agree that touching kids is possible the worst crime out there? If it was a school district, The Police, or a Corporation that hid molesting kids for years they would get the same abuse. But the church gets it the worse because they are supposed to be what's good with the world. They represent love, compassion, charity etc...
Whenever the first time a priest was accused of touching a child they should have done the right thing and turn him in right then and there. But they didn't they choose to hide it over and over and over again. And that is the problem. I'm sorry but there is no way I would support any organization that harbors pedophiles regardless if it were The police, The Philadelphia Phillies, my own family or anyone.
So please Joe how does that make me a bigoted hypocrite?
The hypocrisy is in pretention of some moral authority or a corporately held virtuous character it doesn't really possess so that it can do harm to another, i.e. the Catholic Church. The bigotry is in the intolerance of the Roman Church, not the harm or the evil done to the kids. The evil done to the kids seems secondary in this discussion because it focuses on the Catholic Church when in fact many non-Catholic Churches have far worse problems. Why does this thread focus exclusively on the “Catholic Problem” and not on the “abuse problem – without reference to religion”; unless of course the target is the Catholic Church and not a resolution of the problem?Quote:
Originally Posted by spitvenom
Sex abuse spans spectrum of churches | csmonitor.com
StopBaptistPredators.org
Protestant Clergy Abuse Equals or Exceeds Catholic Clergy Abuse Because It Matters ~ Freedom in Christianity
Sexual abuse in the church: not just a “Catholic problem” | Think Christian
Sexual Abuses Issues in the Church; Raising the Bar | Today's Children's Ministry
Essays - Gary Schoener
So, in my opinion there's no love or compassion being expressed or discussed in this thread, Spitvenom. The underlying topic, or the coded message, is the bigoted view of the Catholic Church. It seems that the victims of these evil crimes are being used as venomous ammunition. There's no attempt at finding a solution.
Quote:
What makes you think that the name of the group protecting pedifiles matters to us? We have already stated twice that whether it's baptist, teachers, even family members, it is all equally bad and should not be tolerated. Is there some reason that I don't know of that would make us WANT to do harm to the church?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Why would people be intolerant of the church? What's there not to like? Give me a reason for people to be intolerant of the church. Except for protecting pedifiles, is there another reason? You keep skimming over the evil done and excused under it's roof.Quote:
The bigotry is in the intolerance of the Roman Church, not the harm or the evil done to the kids.
Only you are making it secondary. Your wrath is more about your church being picked on when it should focus on your church leaders.Quote:
The evil done to the kids seems secondary
[And your point is what? It makes it less of a travisty? This is what I mean when I say you are more concerned with protecting the church than the child.Quote:
QUOTE]in this discussion because it focuses on the Catholic Church when in fact many non-Catholic Churches have far worse problems.
Quote:
Why does this thread focus exclusively on the “Catholic Problem” and not on the “abuse problem – without reference to religion”; unless of course the target is the Catholic Church and not a resolution of the problem?
The reason the thread started with "Catholic Problem" and not abuse in general is because someone sent me the link for a story concerning catholic abuse. It left me scratching my head and wondering how such a thing could happen and not be prosecuted. And if something bad like that went down within a group I supported, I certainly would not support it any longer. Much less defend as you seem to be doing.
The fact that other faiths or organizations in general also have these issues came up during this thread and were "frowned upon" equally. I'll never argue with you that other churches don't have similar situations. Again, doesn't matter who is doing it, what matters is that it is done, and by lack of proper action, condoned.
[Quote:
url=http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.html]Sex abuse spans spectrum of churches | csmonitor.com[/url]
StopBaptistPredators.org
Protestant Clergy Abuse Equals or Exceeds Catholic Clergy Abuse Because It Matters ~ Freedom in Christianity
Sexual abuse in the church: not just a “Catholic problem” | Think Christian
Sexual Abuses Issues in the Church; Raising the Bar | Today's Children's Ministry
Essays - Gary Schoener
I think you flatter yourself to think it's all about being catholic. It's about being wrong.Quote:
So, in my opinion there's no love or compass being expressed or discussed in this thread, Spitvenom. The underlying topic, or the coded message, is the bigoted view of the Catholic Church.
[/QUOTE]Quote:
It seems that the victims of these evil crimes are being used as venomous ammunition. There's no attempt at finding a solution.
You support the organization that produced these victims. The resolution comes with bringing the wrong do-ers out into the light of day and making examples of them so that maybe, the next priest, cardinal, whatever might think twice.
What exactly are members of individual churches to do if they do not know anything is going on, or there is not any experience like that in most churches?
If the abuse happened then the law is there to charge them. Simple as that.
Do not paint the whole membership of church as codoning it. Never said that, yet in your own words you have said as members of catholic church we should all be ashamed for calling Catholic Church our home. Even though none of this is happening in our churches or with our priests or many of us do not even know lots of this is going on, but your making it sound like it is a world wide problem. That every member is responsible for letting it happen.
It is of course not true and as I said before, start putting your anger, out rage and what ever else your feeling towards the right people.
I understand what you are saying Joe.I still believe my church is the Catholic Church and what I find so very appalling is the sweeping under the rug behavior that has continued to not address this problem in the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesushelper76
If a priest commits an offense of abuse,he should not be sent to some out of the way tiny church,he should be excommunicated.
I think by the very fact that Pope Benedict has addressed this issue publicly is a good beginning.He has vowed toHere is a link to the brief article.Quote:
exclude pedophiles from the sacred ministry,
Pope Expresses Deep Shame Over Clergy Sex Abuse Scandal
So Changes are happening, and The Pope is even bringing things out in the open.
I agree Artlady with you a 100 percent. If somebody is found guilty of these abuses. Then they need to face up to the law, and nothing should be swept under the rug or hidden. The priest that orr others that are guilty should never have a role as priest again, or shuffled off anyway where else.
Thank you for the link by the way.
One of the concerns that I have and I have seen expressed by others, is that this specific situation was so widespread - not just one isolated incident, but many people, many schools over many years. It is hard to believe that someone, somewhere who was not involved did not have some knowledge of what was happening, and it is hard to imagine that no one in any authority of authority caught wind of it. At what level there may have been negligence or acceptance, we do not know, but it strains believability to suggest that this could be so widespread without someone somewhere having known about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesushelper76
WHY? Because they cover it up because they do not want the problem dealt with in the public eye and it still continues. So WHY? Is because in effect they appear to condone it by covering it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesushelper76
I agree that it is most likely pediophiles that decided they could 'hide' behind the name of religion therefore wrongfully giving the Catholic name a bad reputation but the Church needs to find a way to STOP it. Whether it is doing better background checks, screening, psych evaluations or whatever they need to figure out an effective way to stop it.
Whether it is the Catholic Church or any other course of power representing the name of Jesus. How shameful it is that they abuse also, what it means to be fruitful (Tts 3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful. )
In a practical term, fruit represent good works, a thought, attitude, or action of ours that God values because it glorifies HIM.
Tts 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Jesus said: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit. Jesus also said we are the branches of HIM who is the Vine. So branches that do not bear fruit are not of Christ.
The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control (Gal 5:22)
None of what has been shown in abuse, assaults, and humiliation can be call fruit that glorifies God. These men and woman that use abuse, assaults, and humiliation come from wickedness, and evil works.
God does promise to cloth HIS enemies in shame.
Are these really cases of pedophilia (PEE dough fill ee ah), or is something else going on?
(Btw, PEED = child, PED = foot)
What age range of children are attractive to pedophiles?
If it sexual abuse of a child, then the answer is a clear YES, it is pedophilia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
How old is the child? (she asked again)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
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Originally Posted by Wondergirl
As well as specific allegations or suspicions about 84 priests, the Dublin archdiocese says accusations have been made against another 61 who worked there in recent decades.
Some 400 victims of abuse have already been identified.
Among the likely questions facing the archdiocese's investigation will be whether priests were moved from parish to parish to disguise their abuse, as occurred in the Church elsewhere in the world.
The most notorious abuse has occurred in children's homes and orphanages run by priests and nuns.
(Source: BBC NEWS | Europe | Catholics detail Irish sex abuses)
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That article above is over a year old and the number of identified victims has risen dramatically.
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As far back as the 1940s, school inspectors reported broken bones and malnourished children but no action was taken.
(source: BBC NEWS | Europe | Abuse 'Ireland's darkest chapter')
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Children's homes and orphanages are not normally used for those 18 and over. Past that, the age should not matter. Sexual abuse of children is abhorrent no matter what the age of the child,
Here is the summary of the findings of the investigation if you want to know more:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/h...5_09_abuse.pdf
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