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Originally Posted by De Maria

Not prior to, but during.

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You need to have read through Acts 10 where we see an example of the Holy Spirit indwelling saved person prior to water baptism.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

You need to have read through Acts 10 where we see an example of the Holy Spirit indwelling saved person prior to water baptism.

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Does the text say that the Holy Spirit was indwelling the Cornelius? Or are you reading that into the text?

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Does the text say that the Holy Spirit was indwelling the Cornelius? Or are you reading that into the text?

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Read a little bit further:

Acts 10:46-48
47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
NKJV

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I may be wrong though Joe. Tell me if that corresponds with how you understand the Sacraments. Especially Baptism.

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You know, if you would just be wrong once, it would really help my ego to catch some small error.

Yes, that’s exactly my understanding of the Sacraments.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

In the New Covenant, God has instituted Sacraments. Literally, Mysteries of His Grace, through which He acts invisibly by visible signs. Ex opere operato-by the very fact they are done. These visible signs are speech acts. That is, they are words and actions which accomplish that which they signify. This speech act, this covenant, changes things. One moment before it occurred, we were unregenerate. One moment after, we are regenerated, renewed and born again of the Holy Spirit.

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I'd like to add an emphasis to the ‘Mysteries of His Grace,’ especially Baptism. In Baptism there is a gift received so holy, a gift rooted in the soul so deep it can’t be lost for a life time, no not a life time, it can’t be lost in an eternity. Baptism incorporates us in with the mystical body of Christ, impressing into the soul the ineradicable mark of Christ; making us participants, citizens, and partakers in His Sacrifice. The mystery, the mysticism isn’t like erasable pencil marks, but once applied, the waters itch first, rills, then gullies, then river valleys filling deep with faith. Only a small drop causes an ocean of cleansing waters. Speaking of’ symbolic’, THIS baptism makes the good ol’ Southern Baptist dunk into quintessential symbolic s; in fact ”he would commit a grievous sin, in matters concerning the salvation of his soul, in the mere fact of preferring uncertainty to certainty.” Without the Church such laving waters are somehow diverted, unable to remake the landscape of the soul.

So, there’s a reason beyond just corporate pride when St. Augustine said, “There are two propositions, moreover, which we affirm, — that baptism exists in the Catholic Church, and that in it alone can it be rightly received” (St. Augustine, On Baptism, Against the Donatists (Book I, 3)


Baptism is only one part of the many parts that makeup our redemption. It comes alive inside the penitent’s box, it radiates at in the presence of the Eucharist; “To prevent which … does not cease striving that they may come and be healed by the medicine of reconciliation, through the bond of peace.” (St. Augustine, On Baptism, Against the Donatists (Book I, 3)

JoeT

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Read a little bit further:

Acts 10:46-48
47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
NKJV

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In other words, St. Peter says, now that they have received the Spirit, they need to be reborn, regenerated. As Jesus said:
John 3 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

In other words, St. Peter says, now that they have received the Spirit, they need to be reborn, regenerated. As Jesus said:
John 3 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

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No, he said nothing of the sort. If you think that he did, show me the specific words.


The Holy Spirit, BTW, does not indwell unbelievers:

John 14:16-18
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
NKJV

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Originally Posted by Tj3

No, he said nothing of the sort. If you think that he did, show me the specific words.


The Holy Spirit, BTW, does not indwell unbelievers:

John 14:16-18
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
NKJV

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Those that do not believe do not follow Christ. But those who do follow, and are baptized, walk in Christ and He in them. Christ did free us from sin with His blood shed.. Now the body, the flesh must follow as servants unto God's will just as Christ ensampled.. Being baptized begins the newness of live.
1 Peter 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

However when baptized you are in the Spirit and are (dead in Christ, buried the flesh)

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

As servants unto God's will..

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Those that do not believe do not follow Christ. But those who do follow, and are baptized, walk in Christ and He in them.

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Not everyone who is saved is baptized, just as not everyone who is saved obeys God perfectly in other areas (actually, no one does). To say that we MUST be obedient in this symbolic ritual to be saved is to go back to a legalistic gospel.

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Being baptized begins the newness of live.

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Scripture does not say this anywhere - it does say that it is SYMBOLIC, but nowhere does it say that it BEGINS newness of life.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Not everyone who is saved is baptized, just as not everyone who is saved obeys God perfectly in other areas (actually, no one does). To say that we MUST be obedient in this symbolic ritual to be saved is to go back to a legalistic gospel.

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When baptized the individual is gifted with the Spirit ... and with fire... His hand fans the fire continuely to purge the floor .. HIS house where He dwells within you should be the temple for HIM. The servant of obedience and righteousness.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:


Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Scripture does not say this anywhere - it does say that it is SYMBOLIC, but nowhere does it say that it BEGINS newness of life.

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Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

No, he said nothing of the sort. If you think that he did, show me the specific words.


The Holy Spirit, BTW, does not indwell unbelievers:

John 14:16-18
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
NKJV

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What is the context of this discussion? Indwelling or regenerating and renewing?

Baptism is the washing of grace by which God regenerates and renews the believer.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Not everyone who is saved is baptized,

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True.

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just as not everyone who is saved obeys God perfectly in other areas (actually, no one does).

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OK.

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To say that we MUST be obedient in this symbolic ritual to be saved is to go back to a legalistic gospel.

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Then I suppose you consider Christ's Gospel legalistic. Because Christ says:
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

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Scripture does not say this anywhere - it does say that it is SYMBOLIC, but nowhere does it say that it BEGINS newness of life.

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Where does Scripture say it is only symbolic?

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

You know, if you would just be wrong once, it would really help my ego to catch some small error.

Yes, that’s exactly my understanding of the Sacraments.

I'd like to add an emphasis to the ‘Mysteries of His Grace,’ especially Baptism. In Baptism there is a gift received so holy, a gift rooted in the soul so deep it can’t be lost for a life time, no not a life time, it can’t be lost in an eternity. ....Baptism is only one part of the many parts that makeup our redemption. It comes alive inside the penitent’s box, it radiates at in the presence of the Eucharist; “To prevent which … does not cease striving that they may come and be healed by the medicine of reconciliation, through the bond of peace.” (St. Augustine, On Baptism, Against the Donatists (Book I, 3)

JoeT

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Beautifully expressed Joe. That is why missing the Mass is such a heinous sin described as trampling underfoot the blood of Christ by which we were sanctified:

Heb 10
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

That washing of the body represents the washing of the soul in the blood of Christ which sanctifies us and incorporates us into His body.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

What is the context of this discussion? Indwelling or regenerating and renewing?

Baptism is the washing of grace by which God regenerates and renews the believer.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

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Thread is baptism...


Titus 3:5 is in reference to a new man, putting them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates and ready to do good works. (Eph 5: 26) (Matthew 19:28) washing is primarily a vessel for bathing.. Romans 12:2 renewing meaning as in the mind

Solid choice in all that is written in The Word/ The Flesh of Chirst

Eph 5:26-27 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Not everyone who is saved is baptized,

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Originally Posted by De Maria

True.

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Then that ends it. We agree that Baptism is not essential for salvation.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

When baptized the individual is gifted with the Spirit

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Acts 10 gives an example of a person gifted with the Holy Spirit before salvation.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Thread is baptism...

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Yes it is.

How to explain?

To us, Baptism is not just a bath. It is a gift of renewal and regeneration by the Blood of Christ in the Holy Spirit.

Every time we go to Mass we apply Holy Water to our forehead and make the sign of the Cross, thus renewing our Covenant with God which was first applied in the Sacrament of Baptism.

In addition, we read the Scriptures and thus relive the history of the family to which we were joined by the grace of God.

And we also pray several prayers in which we renounce Satan and sin and thereby also remember our Baptism and our union with God.

Finally, we receive the other Sacraments within the context of the Mass.

So, anyone who misses the Mass intentionally, by that very fact, is repudiating his Baptism and trampling underfoot the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and counting for nought the blood of Christ which He shed for our salvation.

So, I'm not trying to change the subject. Just explaining the importance of Baptism to the Catholic.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Acts 10 gives an example of a person gifted with the Holy Spirit before salvation.

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Tom I have no doubt that the Spirit warned Peter about the 3 men...(Acts 10:19) nor do I doubt that they told the truth about the angel in his house that sent him to Peter (Acts 11:13) nor do I doubt that at that time God made them clean (Act 10:28)...

(Acts 11:15) speaks of how the Holy Spirit began in them just as it had begun in Peter

REMEMBER: Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?


Acts 11 is about how (all may come into the house of the Lord to be One in Christ)

Question: were the Gentiles baptized later? YES

Reality today...

Can you imagine today being cleaned any other way then by Christ's blood? I can't..
Nor can I imagine today the Spirit being joined to us without the confessed faith in Christ Jesus and baptism


It's all about what Christ fulfilled.. (Matthew 3:15)

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Tom I have no doubt that the Spirit warned Peter about the 3 men...(Acts 10:19) nor do I doubt that they told the truth about the angel in his house that sent him to Peter (Acts 11:13) nor do I doubt that at that time God made them clean (Act 10:28)...

(Acts 11:15) speaks of how the Holy Spirit began in them just as it had begun in Peter

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I note that you skipped right over this section of scripture.

Acts 10:46-48
46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
NKJV

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I note that you skipped right over this section of scripture.

Acts 10:46-48
46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
NKJV

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Yes, it had already been noted in previous posting..

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


Tom: What meaning has this scripture to us as servants? Can we expect to be a servant to Christ if we do not walk in His ways?
Mark 13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.