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Originally Posted by Criado

It's settled, then. I have the burden of proof to provide evidence that they are part of God. AND you have the burden of proof that They are not.

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The burden of proof is entirely on you. You are the one who claimed that they were God. So far the evidence that you have given is that the Bible does not say that these 7 spirits are not God. But one does not prove something by silence. Indeed you even agreed that we are not to go beyond what is written, so the burden is on you.

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Of course, this will may be resolve as we go further. HOWEVER, it seemed that you're evading to provide proof for your previous statement "seven spirits which are spoken of no differently than angels".

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Again, if you claim that they are spoken of differently, then show us. I do not plan to go through the Bible verse by verse just to show you that every verse DOES NOT say something. That is silly. If you claim that scripture somewhere DOES say something, then out with it - show us!

Otherwise if you are going to play this game of making claims based upon what is NOT SAID, then this entire discussion is a waste of time.

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[I]You said:If you claim more, then show me where scripture says that there is another person who is God.

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Once again, you are arguing on the basis of what you say is silence. Since we are not go to go betyond what is written, that effectively defeats your argument.

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What make you think I am backing off that.

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Sigh - in one message you say that the Son and the Father are both God, but not the same God - thus 2 Gods. In another message you say there is only one God. Either you are backing off your first statement, or you are confused between whether there is one God or multiple Gods. But if you are clear on your position, then how do you expect the rest of us to understand what your position is? Or that your position appears to change with the streelight on the corner.

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But I wonder why it is now brought here considering that it very evident that I am focusing THIS discussion to "numbers" even from the very beginning rather than the Godhood.

The trinity has 2 major principle:
1. God has ONLY 3 persons
2. They are the same God

If proven that either,
1. There is less than or greater than three person
2. They are not the same God

Then, the concept will crumble.

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Rather than wasting our time with philosophy, please tell us what you position is, and get into God's word and show us why you believe that to be the case. To be honest, I don't have time to waste on word games.

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I can't see "One and the same God" concept here (of course, I am NOT looking for verbatim). Can you please show it to me?

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Please answer my question first and then we can discuss.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

The burden of proof is entirely on you. You are the one who claimed that they were God. So far the evidence that you have given is that the Bible does not say that these 7 spirits are not God. But one does not prove something by silence. Indeed you even agreed that we are not to go beyond what is written, so the burden is on you.



Again, if you claim that they are spoken of differently, then show us. I do not plan to go through the Bible verse by verse just to show you that every verse DOES NOT say something. That is silly. If you claim that scripture somewhere DOES say something, then out with it - show us!

Otherwise if you are going to play this game of making claims based upon what is NOT SAID, then this entire discussion is a waste of time.



Once again, you are arguing on the basis of what you say is silence. Since we are not go to go betyond what is written, that effectively defeats your argument.

Sigh - in one message you say that the Son and the Father are both God, but not the same God - thus 2 Gods. In another message you say there is only one God. Either you are backing off your first statement, or you are confused between whether there is one God or multiple Gods. But if you are clear on your position, then how do you expect the rest of us to understand what your position is? Or that your position appears to change with the streelight on the corner.

Rather than wasting our time with philosophy, please tell us what you position is, and get into God's word and show us why you believe that to be the case. To be honest, I don't have time to waste on word games.

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Sigh. I wish to comment on this but I'll opt not to to make this less complicated.

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Please answer my question first and then we can discuss.

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I thought I already answered your question. If I answered the wrong question, please tell which specific question you wish me to answer.

Isn't it that this is your question:

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Who are the three persons mentioned in this passage?

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Then I replied with:

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There's God; and His Spirit (who sent) and the one being sent (who from the time that it was, there He is).

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Then you said:

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God - now have you looked at the original languages? They are all YHWH. One and the same God.

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Then I said:

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Here's what it says:

Isa 48:16-17
16 Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord YHWH and His RUACH
Have sent Me.

17 Thus says the YHWH, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
I am the YHWH your ELOHIM,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV

I can't see "One and the same God" concept here (of course, I am NOT looking for verbatim). Can you please show it to me?

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Didn't I answer the question?

Sent who? (lol evidence of things not seen) not seen here

Tj3,
In that passage only two are identified; the Lord God and His spirit.
Since the person speaking identified only as "me" is unidentified my name or title one must assume or go elsewhere for and answer to the question.
Personally I think that the person mentioned there as "me" is "The Word" of God who later is born of Mary and identified as "God is with us" also named Jesus.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura).

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Originally Posted by Tj3

This has nothing to do with the topic of the thread.

Please deal with the question that I asked in the OP:

Who are the three persons mentioned in this passage:

Isa 48:16-17
16 "Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me."

17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV

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Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and His Spirit, hath sent me.

This is in refer to Pent.(Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.) The Lord God. Adonai Jehovah and His Spirit, hath sent Me: or has sent both Me and His Spirit: the prophet, and His Spirit the inspirer of the message sent by Isaiah (Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,) Note the doctrine of Trinity.

Isaiah 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

the Holy One of Israel (note 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.)

I can understand why the translators had such a headache translating
Isa 48:16.
Here's the closest I came to the gist of the verse in context:

Draw near and hear the hidden thing, spoken by the lord yhvh, that his spirit sent forth, to begin at the proper time.

Compared to:

Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; from the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord Jehovah hath sent me, and his Spirit. Isa48:16

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Originally Posted by Criado

Didn't I answer the question?

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In part. But you never said who was sent, and then when asked for clarification, all you did was put some words in Hebrew after I point out:

"God - now have you looked at the original languages? They are all YHWH. One and the same God."

So who is the one who is sent?
Do you accept that they are all YHWH and all are one and the same GOd?

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
In that passage only two are identified; the Lord God and His spirit.

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Who is it that is sent? That is a third person because the Lord God and His Spirit sent whoever it is.

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Since the person speaking identified only as "me" is unidentified my name or title one must assume or go elsewhere for and answer to the question.

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The person speaking says who He is in verse 17.

Isa 48:17
17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV

Isn't that clear enough?

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Personally I think that the person mentioned there as "me" is "The Word" of God who later is born of Mary and identified as "God is with us" also named Jesus.

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Good. He did say that He was the Redeemer, so you don't have to "think" that this is true - He said it, so we KNOW that it is true. Further, He says that He is God, and He says that He is YHWH.

Tj3,
I think what I think, thank you.
I do think that the redeemer identified himself.
I do think that The Word is Jesus Christ.
Because of what I think I believe it.
I have done a lot of thinking in my life and because of that I am a Christian.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
I think what I think, thank you.
I do think that the redeemer identified himself.
I do think that The Word is Jesus Christ.
Because of what I think I believe it.
I have done a lot of thinking in my life and because of that I am a Christian.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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We cannot make what we think the standard, however, it is God's word alone which is the standard of truth.

Tj3,
I think and believe that Gods word is the truth.
What is WRONG with that?
Are you trying to tell me that I should not think?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by Tj3

"God - now have you looked at the original languages?

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Yes; I did.

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They are all YHWH.

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No. They're not. Look, the YHWH appeared 3 times in those 2 verses. But did not said that the God (who send), His Spirit (who also sent) and the one sent was called YHWH. The only one called YHWH here is the God (who sent).

The bolded words are from YHWH.
Isaiah 14:16 "and now the Lord GOD and His Spirit"
Isaiah 14:17 "saith the LORD, thy Redeemer"
Isaiah 14:17 "I am the LORD thy God"

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One and the same God.

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Based on my answer above, it's not.

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So who is the one who is sent?

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To be straight forward, it's Jesus Christ.

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Do you accept that they are all YHWH and all are one and the same God?

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Based again on the above, no.

Criado
That's an interesting post.
Thanks,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
I think and believe that Gods word is the truth.
What is WRONG with that?

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There is nothing wrong with that, but the problem comes when men think that their private interpretation is better than God's word.

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Are you trying to tell me that I should not think?

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Only to the extent that no man should think that his private interpretation is right, or that any man is infallible.

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Originally Posted by Criado

No. They're not. Look, the YHWH appeared 3 times in those 2 verses. But did not said that the God (who send), His Spirit (who also sent) and the one sent was called YHWH. The only one called YHWH here is the God (who sent).

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Isa 48:16-17
16 "Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.

So, who is speaking? We find out in verse 17:

17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.

It is the Lord God who is speaking. The word LORD here is YHWH, so YHWH / God is who is sent. And since we are told that it is the Redeemer, and we know that the Redeemer is Jesus, we know that Jesus is YHWH, and Jesus is God.

Who sent Jesus?

"And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me."

Here we have two more persons. So the Lord God sent the Lord God (Jesus) and God's Spirit sent Jesus. Here the word GOD is the Hebrew name YHWH, which means that God the Father is also YHWH, and God's Spirit is also God, and thus is also YHWH.

Could these be more than one God? No!

Isa 45:14
And there is no other;
There is no other God.'"
NKJV

Mark 12:32-33
32 So the scribe said to Him, "Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He.
NKJV

1 Tim 2:4-7
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle--I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying--a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
NKJV

Tj3,
You are right.
People are not infallible.
That includes you are your interpretations.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
You are right.
People are not infallible.
That includes you are your interpretations.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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That is absolutely right. That is why I say that all of man's interpretations should be rejected, be they mine, yours, the pope's or anyone else's interpretations. The one and only right interpretation is God's and that is why scripture must interpret itself and why we must submit all our interpretations to what scripture says.

Tj3,
I read what you said with interest and thought.
You state the scripture must interpret itself.
Then why do you not allow that?
Many have pointed out to you several things the bible clearly says that you do not agree with such as that Mary IS the mother of God the Son.
You are not alone.
There are over 30,000 different denominations and interpretations of Holy Scripture.
It is no wonder that many people are confused about what Scripture really says.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
...It is no wonder that many people are confused about what Scripture really says...

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Or about what scripture does not say. This thread is about a single verse which I believe is translated inaccurately. In this verse I only know of 2 persons of god, himself and his spirit.

cogs,
You made a good point there when you infer that some people are confused about things that the bible does not say.
Peace and kindness,
Fred