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Originally Posted by Altenweg

I admit that it's a well written book, and an entertaining read, but fact?

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I think, because of your early experiences, you have thrown out the baby with the bathwater. Your gripes are with the Church and especially with "well-meaning" members, and not with the Bible (that people take and run with).

Is it completely factual? What does that mean? Did things happen exactly as the Bible said? Some people think so, but others don't.

Even if one doesn't "believe in" the Bible, there are ways to appreciate it--its prose and poetry, its stories of failure and forgiveness, its ideas on how to treat others.*

The Bible has in all sorts of ways (good as well as bad) affected the lives of millions of people. Certainly if the Bible is "just a book," that wouldn't be the case.

Maybe learning to *appreciate the Bible is a place to start now that you're a grownup with some life experiences behind you and a much more analytical and commonsensical way of thinking.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

He said this, and I remember it clearly to this day. "I do what I want, say what I want, crush anyone who stands in the way of what I want, as long as I go home at the end of the day and pray for forgiveness, then it doesn't matter, doesn't count".

Another reason for me not to follow organized religion, and proof that not all religious people are pure of heart.

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You do realize that he is the worst possible representative of organized religion. You know, and I know, he has "it" all wrong. Please don't use him as your standard and as your reason for deep-sixing the Bible.

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Written by men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit... and it's also important to remember that the books that went into the Bible had to be decided upon by men (Catholic Church) as well.

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And mentioning the Catholic Church to me will get you where? No where.

As for Gospel being written by men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, well, sorry, but there's no proof of that.

Also, who died and decided the Catholic Church reigned supreme? I don't think so.

Sorry, but if you read any of my other posts, the sure fire way to get me to turn a deaf ear, is to preach to me. As for the Catholic Church, if that is your belief, you have a right to it, but I will never be a part of any religious group, and if I had to pick one tomorrow, gun to my head, the Catholic Church would be the last on my list.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

You do realize that he is the worst possible representative of organized religion. You know, and I know, he has "it" all wrong. Please don't use him as your standard and as your reason for deep-sixing the Bible.

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No, he wasn't the reason, or not the only one. I just cannot accept a book that was written by man to be "the word of God".

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

No, he wasn't the reason, or not the only one. I just cannot accept a book that was written by man to be "the word of God".

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So, do you know why it is called the Word of God?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I think, because of your early experiences, you have thrown out the baby with the bathwater. Your gripes are with the Church and especially with "well-meaning" members, and not with the Bible (that people take and run with).

Is it completely factual? What does that mean? Did things happen exactly as the Bible said? Some people think so, but others don't.

Even if one doesn't "believe in" the Bible, there are ways to appreciate it--its prose and poetry, its stories of failure and forgiveness, its ideas on how to treat others.*

The Bible has in all sorts of ways (good as well as bad) affected the lives of millions of people. Certainly if the Bible is "just a book," that wouldn't be the case.

Maybe learning to *appreciate the Bible is a place to start now that you're a grownup with some life experiences behind you and a much more analytical and commonsensical way of thinking.

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Oh, it's not a bad book, I agree, and some of the stories in it are inspirational and beautiful, I agree. But, to base all my belief on a man written book, no, I won't do that.

Yes, I do have gripes with the Church, I admit that, but not without reason. Church is yet another example of mans views, mans way, based on the bible, written by man, held in a building, built by man, paid for by the people that follow that religion, that believe in that one man, priest, pastor, what have you.

The Church speaks of hell, fire and brimstone. Do as I say or burn in hell. Follow these man written rules, do not disobey, or there will be hell to pay.

That's not my cup of tea.

Why must the Church preach hell and damnation, why must the bible state what will happen if you don't obey? Why? To scare you into accepting this written work as the "word of God".

I choose to believe because I have hope, not because I'm scared. If I die tomorrow I will not be afraid, because I know, in my heart, that God knows who and what I am, even if I don't go to Church.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, I'm just trying to explain my reasoning. I don't expect you to agree, and I do respect your right to disagree.

Peace.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

I choose to believe because I have hope, not because I'm scared. If I die tomorrow I will not be afraid, because I know, in my heart, that God knows who and what I am, even if I don't go to Church.

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Amen!

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Why must the Church preach hell and damnation, why must the bible state what will happen if you don't obey? Why? To scare you into accepting this written work as the "word of God".

I choose to believe because I have hope, not because I'm scared.

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Actually, you have it right. The Bible is hope and the message is really one of love, God's love for us and ours for him in return and then his love reflecting off us onto others. But that's too easy for people to see and understand. People want to have to work hard to get saved and be scared and to scare others. Wish I knew why. The real deal is so much nicer.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Actually, you have it right. The Bible is hope and the message is really one of love, God's love for us and ours for him in return and then his love reflecting off us onto others. But that's too easy for people to see and understand. People want to have to work hard to get saved and be scared and to scare others. Wish I knew why. The real deal is so much nicer.

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I agree Wondergirl.

God has blessed us to be a blessing to others.

DAH yeah that is what she believes!
As Altenweg asked Why do Christians base their beliefs on the bible? That was specifically asked in her question.

SO WHY DO you insist on constantly badgering Christians with ''That is what you believe'' when it is clear to everybody concerned (EXCEPT apparently YOU) by pointing out ''that is what you believe"... DUH yeah that is what she believes along with many others. It is not like Wondergirl is claiming she is speaking for you or anybody else so your point why you point it out is invalid!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Nohelp "I believe" you deserve a greenie:D
"I believe" that this post should not be Cred critiquing the members on how they speak but about altys question.

I'm with you Alty I can't see how people can follow a book that was written by men, I feel that some men are sometimes so full of greed and self perseveration they would fail to think of society as a whole and do what's best for them.

I can't believe how some parts of the bible and other religions have so little respect for women... I can't get past that part, so I could never attend church or go by a bible that does not see women as equals.
I do feel like the church and bible makes some people better for it, I think peoples belief in the bible and its teachings have turned them from evil so I would never say that the bible is a bad thing, just not for me.
I wish I could have believed "the word" my life would have been a lot easier, in the I'm sure I would have closer ties with my family had I gone down the religious path they went, maybe not who knows.
Anyway that's my view on the bible.

I agree about the way women were treated back then but that is one of the things that is recorded history and not necessarily the way God wanted men to treat women. The Bible says for men to treat women with respect and women submit to men as men are to submit to God. MAN has taken the submission out of context to mean to rule over the woman as subservient but that was never how God meant it.
Unfortunately evil men still want to distort the Bible to make the male dominant other races, women and anybody they can but God is not in that it is evil man twisting God into his own image.

P.S. I don't think there is anything wrong with Alty's post ;) or anybody's reply... everything WAS going along well with no misunderstandings.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

It doesn't show that I am incapable or unwilling to accept anything other than YOUR insistence of prefacing religious beliefs with 'I believe....'

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Incorrect : it shows precisely that you are unwilling to accept the reality that whatever statement one makes based on what one believes can only be accepted as factual when valid OSE has been provided for that .

:D

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NO it does not... this is the religious discussion board so anything religious that is stated IS belief. This is not the science board or even the prove it board.
The question was why do you believe? Alty did NOT ask for anything FACTUAL so your argument here is TOTALLY irrelevant!!
You are reading way too much into stuff if you want to 'accuse' me that I am unwilling to accept reality.

I think the majority of us are able to sort and distinguish belief from fact
I am sorry that you have a problem in making the distinction and HAVE to have it pointed out to you.

I can not believe that YOU accuse me of being the one to make the fuss over it when countless posts by you always YOU making the fuss of 'That is your belief' and to top it all off I don't even reply to the majority of the posts you fuss at Sassy and others. SO DO not even attempt to throw this on me being the one making the fuss about it.
I can even go through all your replies and come up with a good 200 posts by you making the fuss where I never even commented on!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Your very own posts prove that you make the fuss because they all tend to go on over 20 some pages back and forth and not getting anywhere other than nitpicking others.

When are you going to reply to the OP topic?

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Not so. This is indeed the religious discussion board. But not each statement made here is based on belief. My statements for sure are not.

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The OP asked for our beliefs. We are giving them to her. Thus, stating the obvious is not necessary anytime someone posts. "Belief" is implicit in each response; it doesn't have to be explicit. Even your comments, John, are based on your beliefs, so please speak to the question on the table.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

I will never be a part of any religious group, and if I had to pick one tomorrow, gun to my head, the Catholic Church would be the last on my list.

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Why don't you tell us how you really feel about the Catholic Church, Alty? LMAO!

I'm following this thread with interest, but haven't time to post anything substantial right now, except to say that I can empathize with where you're coming from.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

The point is, I do believe. Why, when I discuss God with others, are they so adamant that I believe in the Bible? Why isn't belief enough? I'm not saying that anyone on this thread has done that, but others have.

What is it about the Bible that is so important with respect to belief? Why can't someone believe in one and not the other?

I don't really expect an answer to that, it's a hard question to answer, but I do often wonder about it, and so far no one has ever given me a good reason why.

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My answer to your queries is almost the same as I always give on religious discussions regarding the different religions (especially the monotheistic religions).

It was not different religions revealed at different times,but the same beliefs of monotheism and the golden rules(or commandments).

It has been the same Almighty sending Messengers and Messages to all humanity,but each time a book is revealed(and yes I do believe in the original Bible being the word of the Almighty,and I also believe in the original Torah being revealed by the Almighty).

-each time revelations are sent, a group of people believes,some turn their backs to the revelation,which would mean there will be at least two groups of people (or could even become two different religions).
And then there will be those who form their own ideas from the revelation and this in turn may become a new religion,that makes it three different religion at least per revelation.
Not to mention those who break away from all of these groups and form their own beliefs mixed/not mixed with older beliefs before the revelation of that time(maybe follow the revelations of ages past).

And I do believe that each time a chosen Messenger is sent,some follow him or they reject him or they start worshipping him instead of the One Almighty.
Now years since the revelation, some are still following the original,while others have made changes as per their own thoughts,while others are lost in between,some reject all of these and form their own opinions on how life is to be lived.

The best thing is to do a comparison of all three monotheistic faiths books(as you already do believe in an Almighty),where you will be able to find the similarities and differences.
You may see what I said about the revelations from being the same source when you see the similarities in the books and the commands too.

I want to say that I welcome all opinions and statements, all.

I value every one of your views and beliefs, no matter what they are.

Let's keep this conversation friendly, okay?

I do wish to restate that I am not, by definition, a Christian, although I do value your input to my question, I do not follow a Christian faith. I've been there, done that, read "the book". ;)

I have read every post, and I do thank you for responding to me.

I still do not understand why so many people put so much stock in the bible. Yes, it is a good book, has lots of interesting and inspiring stories. It also has allot of hell, fire and brimstone, punishment, you better obey or else. Not for me, and I really don't believe that God (at least not the God I believe in) would ever dish out the punishment that is spoken of in the bible.

I believe in a God that allows free will, a God that forgives us our sins as long as we really repent of those sins. A God that is like a parent, will let us make mistakes, learn, and move on. A God that does not step in when we make those mistakes, but gives us the intelligence to learn from them and grow.

Maybe I don't believe in the same God as all of you, there are so many differences between my beliefs and the beliefs of those that follow the bible and go to Church. So, if there is but one God, then who do I believe in? Is he the same God that Christians believe in? If so, then how can that be? I guess I am confused, but not about my beliefs so much as I am about others.

Let's try to remember when posting here, that we are all human beings, none of us are perfect. I am trying to respect that very human quality in others, ah yes, I have learned something, so let's try and be kind to each other. I truly believe that we can talk about our differences in a way that is respectable to everyone.

Okay?