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Originally Posted by ScottGem

I find solace in being the best person I can be. In doing what I can to help others by sharing my knowledge. By living my life in a way that I can be comfortable with. And why or how does denying God and having bad things still happen affect this. I do not believe in the existence of a God as you do. One of the main reasons is because I can't believe that such a God as described in the Bible, could allow disasters like the recent Cyclone and earthquake.

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And yet they still happen. So, if you believe that the suffering of man is wasted, that is your decision.

I believe that the suffering of man brings us closer to our God.

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You can consider yourself such all you want. But you clearly aren't.

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That is your opinion. I you want to turn this into an insult match, I feel the same about you. Where does that get us?

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As noted above, your logic leaves a lot to be desired. And you operate not on facts but on faith.

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Sorry, but it is your logic which is flawed. And you operate not on reason but on a misplaced faith in your own flawed logic.

Feel better? Maybe we can get vulgar in the next message. That seems to be how atheists like to converse. Insult for insult.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I'm not trying to insult you, I'm simply stating facts based on what you yourself have posted. You have posted arguments that you claim are logical, but which clearly are not. You have made statements that you claim are facts which clearly are a matter of faith and do not have a factual basis. There is no intent to insult, but sometimes the truth hurts. I'm sorry if you feel insulted by the truth, but I can't help that.

You believe that "that the suffering of man brings us closer to our God", I can't believe in a God that would cause suffering to bring his worshipers closer to him.

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

I'm not trying to insult you, I'm simply stating facts based on what you yourself have posted. You have posted arguments that you claim are logical, but which clearly are not.

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Simply saying they aren't logical doesn't make it so.

If you believe my statements are illogical, then show where they break down. Otherwise, you are simply insulting.

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You have made statements that you claim are facts which clearly are a matter of faith

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It seems you have trouble distinguishing between facts and faith. That is where your logic breaks down.

Obviously, you believe that God does not exist. So, that assumption permeates your speech to the point you believe it is a fact. But it is not.

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and do not have a factual basis.

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Actually, I have more of a factual basis than you.

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There is no intent to insult, but sometimes the truth hurts.

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That sword cuts both ways.

Obviously, you don't even understand what you are saying. And you probably haven't understood what I said. Seems your mental abilities aren't quite up to par.

So let me explain a little further.

Your assumption is that God doesn't exist. That isn't a fact. But you act as though it is. Therefore, when someone like myself, does not accept your assumption, you claim they aren't logical. Simple as that.

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I'm sorry if you feel insulted by the truth, but I can't help that.

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I'm never insulted by the truth. I'm only insulted by people who try to demean my understanding of the truth based on their false assumptions.

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You believe that "that the suffering of man brings us closer to our God", I can't believe in a God that would cause suffering to bring his worshipers closer to him.

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That means that for you suffering is wasted. Now that is not just illogical, it is plain stupid.

At least, we Christians have a purpose and a reason for enduring the suffering of this life.

I'm real good at truthful speech. If you prefer my telling you exactly how I feel about your stupid assumptions, then all you have to do is continue calling me illogical. We'll have a grand time.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I guess no one took anything to heart. There should be no debate on this thread. This thread is being Hijacked and needs to stop.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Obviously, you believe that God does not exist. So, that assumption permeates your speech to the point you believe it is a fact. But it is not.

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No, I don't believe it's a fact. I have consistently stated that it's a belief. I can't prove that God doesn't exist anymore than you can prove that he does.

I have stated my logic on many occasions, including in this thread. Your attempts to counter that logic are based on quotes from the Bible. But using those quotes is a matter of faith, not fact. The only fact is that they appear in the Bible.

Your belief in the word of Jesus and God as shown in the Bible is a matter of faith. You can provide no concrete proof of the nature of those words, just and I can't disprove them. This means believing in them is a matter of faith, not fact. Ergo, you cannot be someone who relies solely on facts because you take so much on faith. And your use of logic is based not on extrapolation of facts, but on extrapolation of your faith in the Bible. This is not an insult, because your strong faith is an asset for you. But it is a statement based on facts.

I will close this but pointing out that I have been very civil in my discussions with you. I have not resorted to name calling (as you have), I have not resorted to out and out insults (as you have). I am not bothered by those insults because I know what it means when someone resorts to such insults when they can't get their point across by other means. I know how far off the mark those insults are and I'm comfortable that other people will see those insults for what they are. But this site has rules against attacking people as you have done here. And any further insults will result in appropriate action.

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

No, I don't believe it's a fact. I have consistently stated that it's a belief. I can't prove that God doesn't exist anymore than you can prove that he does.

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Good, I'm glad that you admitted that point blank.

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I have stated my logic on many occasions, including in this thread. Your attempts to counter that logic are based on quotes from the Bible. But using those quotes is a matter of faith, not fact. The only fact is that they appear in the Bible.

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Exactly! The only quotes I posted were those concerning your standard vs. mine. My standard is written in Church doctrine and in Scripture. So if we review message #7 in this thread, this is what I said before I quoted Scripture:

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Now, it is obvous, that by your standard, you don't consider this good. But we who are Christians live by God's standard, not yours.

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Now I could have just as easily quoted Catholic doctrine, but since this isn't a strictly Catholic website, I chose to quote Scripture.

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Your belief in the word of Jesus and God as shown in the Bible is a matter of faith. You can provide no concrete proof of the nature of those words, just and I can't disprove them. This means believing in them is a matter of faith, not fact.

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Exactly! The key words are "and I can't disprove them". Which means what we have here is a matter of my faith in God vs your faith in your own abilities. But you are trying to characterize this discussion as my faith vs your facts. And how can that be since you just admitted you have no way of proving your opinions.

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Ergo, you cannot be someone who relies solely on facts because you take so much on faith.

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Exactly! But you fail to see that you are in the same boat. The only difference is, you have faith in self, I have faith in God.

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And your use of logic is based not on extrapolation of facts, but on extrapolation of your faith in the Bible.

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Not so. I have also expounded my logic on this forum at many times. It is my extrapolation from the facts which leads me to believe in God and therefore in His Revelation.

Let me review briefly. Since I see that we and all living creatures and the entire universe are beautifully and wonderfully made, I have to admit that we couldn't have come about by accident. I compare to an intelligent reaction of anyone who might find a watch in the forest. The logical question would be, "Who made this?" Not "I wonder how long it took for this thing to create itself?"

And there is the difference in your and my assumption. I believe that we had to have a Creator, therefore I believe in God.

You don't. Therefore you don't believe in God. We both extrapolate our assumption from the facts. But you claim that only your assumption is valid. Sorry to disappoint you, but I believe mine is more valid and more logical.

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This is not an insult, because your strong faith is an asset for you. But it is a statement based on facts.

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I think you meant to say, "it is NOT a statement based on facts." I have explained how it is a statement based on facts above.

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I will close this but pointing out that I have been very civil in my discussions with you.

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You consider calling me illogical to be civil?

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I have not resorted to name calling (as you have),

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Oh, does the truth hurt? I was just being truthful in what I think of your ideas, just as you were being truthful in what you thought of mine.

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I have not resorted to out and out insults (as you have).

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Yes, you have.

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I am not bothered by those insults because I know what it means when someone resorts to such insults when they can't get their point across by other means.

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In other words, sticks and stones etc. etc.

Well, I would prefer not to be insulted. But if anyone resorts to insulting me, I see no reason why they shouldn't have a taste of their own medicine. However, I prefer to have polite discussion.

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I know how far off the mark those insults are and I'm comfortable that other people will see those insults for what they are. But this site has rules against attacking people as you have done here.

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That is fine. But I noticed that you didn't call me illogical or use any other type of insult in this message. Obviously you got too much of your own medicine back at you in the last message and you learned your lesson.

Now if you want to continue a cordial discussion with me, I'm always ready.

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And any further insults will result in appropriate action.

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That's fine. I'll let reasonable people decide whether I have acted appropriately under the circumstances.

Sincerely,

De Maria

The OP stated that God does good all the time. I pointed out that the recent natural disasters couldn't be considered good.

Your points and alleged logic are based solely on what's written in the Bible. But, since any belief in what's written there is based on faith then you are not dealing with logic. Logic involves taking facts and extrapolating a conclusion based on those facts. That's not what you are doing. If you were really a facts and logic type of guy as you claim then you wouldn't have the blind faith you display in the word as in the Bible. You wouldn't use what's written in the Bible to justify everything you believe in.That's notan insult, it's a simple statement of fact.

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

I am very happy that you have found solace and happiness. But I have to take exception to your statement that he does good all the time. In the last couple of weeks we have had two natural disasters that have and will claim thousands of lives. By what standard is this doing good????

As for me, I don't "belong" to anyone but my family. Personally I don't beleive that god is doing anything in my life. I believe I control my own destiny.

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well scottgem.. things take time and everything happens for a reason. While I'm on this subject I would like to explain what God has done for me. I'm a horse lover and one of my old friends invited me to a horse camp which I was highly excited about. I got to ride my own choice of horse and everything was going really well. One night it was raining and by the next morning the horses where frisky (this means they where hyperactive.. like a baby after a nice long nap) the air was cool and there was one thing that I needed, well that I didn't, have experience in.. and that was controlling a horse if it ever gotout of hand. Whilst riding my horse around, another horse over took it. This made my horse very angry and started bucking.. I had lost control and fell to the ground in an awkward position. I was sent to brisbanes popular royal children's hospital (I wish to thank them for being very kind to me during the mnth of my stay :) ) and after a month of lying on my back and unable to walk I was let out and able to walk (however I could only walk 5 minutes then take a rest) I found out that I had fractued my T7 vertebre in my spine and I was so lucky that the doctors where highly amazed. I know, and I have never doubted, that this was god's doing. (keepin my spine safe) before the accident I was frightened to go and try new things, now , after 1.5 years after the accident I am very brave and I'm losing weight. If it wasn't for what had happened, I would still be the quite girl I was before. It was no-ones fault and I was very saddened that they had to close down the ranch for good.
so, scottgem, I hope you can understand what I'm trying to tell you. If it wasn't for this accident, I wouldn't be the girl I am today. And I would be nothing without god =]

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

The OP stated that God does good all the time. I pointed out that the recent natural disasters couldn't be considered good.

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And I explained that God permits evil in order to bring good from it.

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Your points and alleged logic are based solely on what's written in the Bible.

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No. As I explained, my points are based on an extrapolation of the facts and on the teachings of the Church including the Bible.

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But, since any belief in what's written there is based on faith then you are not dealing with logic.

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No. Belief in that which is written in the Bible is based both on faith and on logic. Obviously if it were illogical, few people would believe it.

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Logic involves taking facts and extrapolating a conclusion based on those facts.

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Correct. But different people come to different conclusions as they don't always agree on the logical inferences to be drawn from those facts.

So, my logical inferences are not wrong simply because you say so. You simply disagree with me. Especially since you have admitted that you can't prove your point.

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That's not what you are doing.

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Yeah, it is. The reason you don't believe I'm doing it is that you don't realize that you are also exercising faith. You have faith in your power of reason. I have faith in my own as well as in the Supernatural reasoning revealed and taught by the Church.

So our discussion is not a comparison of your facts against my faith, but a comparison of your faith against my faith.

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If you were really a facts and logic type of guy as you claim then you wouldn't have the blind faith you display in the word as in the Bible.

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I can say the same of you. If you were really a fact and logic type of guy as you claim you wouldn't have the blind faith you display in your mental ability.

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You wouldn't use what's written in the Bible to justify everything you believe in.

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I don't. I could but I realize that some people don't accept Bible teaching, so I can deal with them in non-biblical subjects as well.

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That's notan insult, it's a simple statement of fact.

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No, its not an insult, not the way you have worded it this time. However, it isn't a fact either. Its simply your erroneous opinion. I have already explained why its an error.

Anyway, I think I've repeated the same explanation now several times. If you still don't understand, I see no sense in continuing this discussion, feel free to have the last word.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by De Maria

And I explained that God permits evil in order to bring good from it.



No. As I explained, my points are based on an extrapolation of the facts and on the teachings of the Church including the Bible.



No. Belief in that which is written in the Bible is based both on faith and on logic. Obviously if it were illogical, few people would believe it.



Correct. But different people come to different conclusions as they don't always agree on the logical inferences to be drawn from those facts.

So, my logical inferences are not wrong simply because you say so. You simply disagree with me. Especially since you have admitted that you can't prove your point.



Yeah, it is. The reason you don't believe I'm doing it is that you don't realize that you are also exercising faith. You have faith in your power of reason. I have faith in my own as well as in the Supernatural reasoning revealed and taught by the Church.

So our discussion is not a comparison of your facts against my faith, but a comparison of your faith against my faith.



I can say the same of you. If you were really a fact and logic type of guy as you claim you wouldn't have the blind faith you display in your mental ability.



I don't. I could but I realize that some people don't accept Bible teaching, so I can deal with them in non-biblical subjects as well.



No, its not an insult, not the way you have worded it this time. However, it isn't a fact either. Its simply your erroneous opinion. I have already explained why its an error.

Anyway, I think I've repeated the same explanation now several times. If you still don't understand, I see no sense in continuing this discussion, feel free to have the last word.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Just because people do not believe the things we want them to believe doesn't mean that we should try to prove them wrong. Everyone believes in different things, this is why non religious people think of christians as 'people who shouldn't tell others what they want them to believe' as christians we should help people who WANT to be helped. No argue with people who are only SHARING there thoughts about what they believe.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

And I explained that God permits evil in order to bring good from it.

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And I say that's totally based on faith, not fact or logic.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

No. As I explained, my points are based on an extrapolation of the facts and on the teachings of the Church including the Bible.

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What facts? I don't see any facts, all I see are quotes from scripture.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

No. Belief in that which is written in the Bible is based both on faith and on logic. Obviously if it were illogical, few people would believe it.

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And I vehemently disagree. People believe because it makes them feel better to believe. Religion is based almost entirely on faith, NOT logic. I see nothing wrong with having faith and finding solace in religion. But the fact is that there are so many contradictions in the Bible, that it can't be considered logical.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

But different people come to different conclusions as they don't always agree on the logical inferences to be drawn from those facts.

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Agreed, But inferences and conclusions based on faith are NOT logic, then are beliefs.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

So, my logical inferences are not wrong simply because you say so. You simply disagree with me. Especially since you have admitted that you can't prove your point.

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Wrong again. I'm not saying your beliefs are wrong, I can't because I can't prove them wrong. What I am saying is that they are not based on logic because they they are drawn from faith, not facts. What I said was I can't prove God doesn't exist anymore then you can prove he does. But I believe I have made a strong case that you are not using facts and logic to arrive at your beliefs.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I can say the same of you. If you were really a fact and logic type of guy as you claim you wouldn't have the blind faith you display in your mental ability.

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But I don't have "blind faith" in my "mental ability". I have faith in my powers of reasoning because they have rarely failed me during my lifetime. I am careful in reaching my conclusions and those conclusions have rarely been proven wrong. So I have a track record to go on in relying on my ability to reason. Not blind faith.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

No, its not an insult, not the way you have worded it this time. However, it isn't a fact either. Its simply your erroneous opinion. I have already explained why its an error.

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You have TRIED to explain why I'm in error, but the facts support my conclusions, not yours.

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Originally Posted by pimp_mah_alpaka

things take time and everything happens for a reason.

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I'm sorry but I don't believe that. To believe that I would have to believe in some power watching over us and pulling strings according to some grand plan. As much as I've tried, I can't believe in that. To believe in that robs me of my individuality, my free will and my ability to control my life.

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Originally Posted by pimp_mah_alpaka

I hope you can understand what im trying to tell you. if it wasnt for this accident, i wouldnt be the girl i am today. and i would be nothing without god =]

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I do agree that everything we experience shapes us. And if this experience shaped you into a person who believes in God, then I am very happy for you.

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Originally Posted by johndeere08

When I was 12 I was diagnosed with bone cancer. It had spread so bad that the doctors told my parent I had a 1 out of 10 chance of making it. Here I am 19 years old.

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Thanks for sharing the grace of God.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I have a beautiful loving wife for whom I thank God everyday. I have four wonderful children for whom I thank God everyday. I am alive and healthy for which I thank God everyday. I have a brother, sister and mother still with me, for whom I thank God everyday.

I feel the presence of God and His Angels and Saints in my life everyday.

Give glory to the Lord for he is good, for his mercy endureth for ever!!!

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Thank you for sharing!

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Originally Posted by Jesushelper76

God is good all the time. Only people who truly understand God will know this truth.

As far as what God is doing in my life. Well I am alive right at this moment. Each moment is more of a miracle that I would have not experianced without his creation.

I have been blessed with life, a family and a job.

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Thank you!

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Originally Posted by inthebox

22 years ago, I prayed and prayed to get into profesional school, and into the summer when things start to look hopeless I recieved 2 acceptances in the span of a week.

My wife and I are still married and stronger. 6 years soon. I can't find the site, but you plug in some personal factors and it gives you statistical odds on your chances of being married at a given anniversary. For us it was < 20%, and that does not include what we have done to each other - only by asking God has He helped us persevere through the bad times.

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Thank you so much for sharing!

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Originally Posted by 0rphan

I have been a carer for one person or another for much of my life which has been extremely hard work , there have been many times that i have thought ...i just cannot go on keeping a full time job and being a carer as well..... there have been times when i've been to tired to eat or put one foot in front of the other but i've known that i would be on call throughout the night and somehow i have come through it all, this could only have been the work of the good guy upstairs for i am not a very big person and have no physical strength, especially when it involves lifting someone over twice my weight, never the less i would always manage it. I think we all say the words... dear lord give me strength.... i did many times . Thankfully he did.

There are many things that against all odds, should not happen, only little things but things that would have put me in real trouble had they continued. I have already said that i am a carer and also have to work for a living so my car is a priority in life, there have been many times it has broken down, many times it should not have started, usually in the middle of the night or some other emergency, it's only an old Rover but it getes me from a-b which is fine, to be truthful it should have gone to the scrapeyard in the sky many years ago but right now it's my best friend i've became very atatched to it and all it's alments( bit like me really) again somehow it keeps going, i am certain that when in trouble the goodguy is there to help no one has offered to help throughout my life and i'm sure having had a real bad time this last year most people would have gone down but some how i kept standing up.......i THANK GOD for that

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Thank you for sharing God's faithfulness!

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

Thank you so much for sharing!

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You're welcome!
:)

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Originally Posted by pimp_mah_alpaka

well scottgem .. things take time and everything happens for a reason. while im on this subject i would like to explain what God has done for me. I'm a horse lover and one of my old friends invited me to a horse camp which i was highly excited about. i got to ride my own choice of horse and everything was going really well. one night it was raining and by the next morning the horses where frisky (this means they where hyperactive.. like a baby after a nice long nap) the air was cool and there was one thing that i needed, well that i didnt, have experience in .. and that was controlling a horse if it ever gotout of hand. Whilst riding my horse around, another horse over took it. This made my horse very angry and started bucking .. i had lost control and fell to the ground in an awkward position. i was sent to brisbanes popular royal childrens hospital (i wish to thank them for being very kind to me during the mnth of my stay :) ) and after a month of lying on my back and unable to walk i was let out and able to walk (however i could only walk 5 mins then take a rest) i found out that i had fractued my T7 vertebre in my spine and i was so lucky that the doctors where highly amazed. I know, and i have never doubted, that this was god's doing. (keepin my spine safe) before the accident i was frightened to go and try new things, now , after 1.5 years after the accident i am very brave and im losing weight. if it wasnt for what had happened, i would still be the quite girl i was before. it was no-ones fault and i was very saddened that they had to close down the ranch for good.
so, scottgem, i hope you can understand what im trying to tell you. if it wasnt for this accident, i wouldnt be the girl i am today. and i would be nothing without god =]

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Thank you for sharing.

So, my experience is that God is good and does good. I did not always believe this. I grew up believing that one day I would marry Jesus. As a child I was molested, then raped at gunpoint, then date-raped again. By the time I was 12 my parents divorced. This was the final straw for me. I could handle all of the other stuff, but for my family to be torn apart was the last straw. I looked up to the sky and swore at God. I waited for the lightning to strike me, but it never came. I began to believe that God allowed these evil things to happen to me and turned my back to Him.

When I was 13, I slit my wrist for the first time. I started looking for approval from men and drugs and sex. I hated my life and everyone else. I was miserable. By 15, I was seeking out witchcraft. By 24, I was living on the street addicted to methamphetamine and prostituting myself for dope.

I reached a point where I cried out to God "either kill me or get me out of this situation!"

He loved me even when I hated Him, He chose to save me from myself and the destruction of my sin. I have learned that this world has evil because we are all born in sin and sin against God daily. I cannot not sin. I've tried. It is only because of His goodness and grace that I can be who He wants me to be. My life is no good without Him. Even when I think that what I do is good, it is not according to His standard. I cannot make my own standard, I have to live by what He says.

I have been given the opportunity to get to know Him on a personal level that I never knew before. I am infinitely grateful for His love and faithfulness. I cannot imagine being separated from Him for Eternity. I look forward to Eternity with Him.

His love and faithfulness are good. The sin and corruption in this world are not. He is good, I am not.