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Originally Posted by jillianleab

That sounds like a cop out to me.

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Why should you consider it a cop out? Our government has a department of weights and standards for the sole purpose of having a perfect measurement of anything you can think of. All measuring tools are traceable back to those standards; they are as perfect as is possible with our technology.

Whatever you are doing, if you use a pattern; dress making, carpentry, or anything else, if you use the pattern to cut something and then use that second item as a pattern and continue this practice, you will soon have parts that cannot be used. You must stay with the pattern. And for Christians, that means Jesus Christ.

It sounds like a cop out because you're saying, "Jesus was great, so Christianity is great. We all want to be like Jesus, but we can't because he was just that great. We are the living representatives of our religion, and even though we sometimes totally blow the standard set forth by that really great guy, you should forget about that and still become one of us, because Jesus was just that great."

To the non-Christian it sounds like an excuse to not be "great". Maybe it's just me.

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Originally Posted by mr wendal

First of all , who is a christian and what qualifies one to be a christian
well to be a christian is simply put to be Christ like , when Jesus was here on earth his time was spent helping , healing , feeding and most importantly serving others .Jesus major role in his teachings was not as leader but as a servant , his message was one of love and compassion and his teachings was based on his divine purpose of returning lost man to forgiving father , he came and he died on a cross to take our place for sins that he did not commit
secondly to be a christian is to confess that Jesus is lord and to believe that God raised him from the dead
many people readily confess Christianity , but they do not live their lives according to Christ like standards

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Maybe that's the trouble in a nutshell. Christ served, he helped, he healed people. The way evangilical Christian faith has always been explained to me is that the Christians are the leaders, not the helpers. While facing faith in a parental and punitive role some kids will be resentful. The trouble is that most folks who try out Christian faith are adults. (Those who can accept it wholeheartedly are children, up to a certain age.) If you don't agree with everything they propose, you're not okay-you need to be controlled. Or in some instances, you are a devil-worshipper by default.

When I was swimming in Christian faith the very thought of the devil terrified me, gave me nightmares! This fear was taught and reinforced by the Christians. They told me that Muslims were wrong, Jews had most of it wrong and witchcraft was very wrong and evil. Christians are both capable and willing to be just as mean and nasty as the next person. Gee, go figure, they're human too. So are witches, Jews, Muslims etc. Many shy away from any ideology that is like a judge and jury... If you don't accept our human interpretaion, or "our truth," you're damned.

That's attractive... Not! I prefer to have a choice and not be damned for making it. Christianity does not allow this.

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Originally Posted by simoneaugie

the Christians... told me that Muslims were wrong, Jews had most of it wrong and witchcraft was very wrong and evil. Christians are both capable and willing to be just as mean and nasty as the next person. Gee, go figure, they're human too. So are witches, Jews, Muslims etc. Many shy away from any ideology that is like a judge and jury... If you don't accept our human interpretaion, or "our truth," you're damned.

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There's a Christian song that goes something like, "And we will show them by our love." *Cough* Didn't Jesus preach love and forgiveness and acceptance? He ate with sinners and he talked to the woman (a woman! And a Samaritan on top of it) at the well.

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Christianity does not allow this.

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You've been floating around in the wrong boat.

Dear Simone, Not only why should you reject Christianity, but why believe in anything "supernatural" at all?

IN order to *believe* in a religion, a person has to suspend his or her rational disbelief in the laws of nature... that is harmful to a person's thinking process because the idea that it is OK to claim one's belief as fact, not only in religious matters but everyday conversation about politics and biology, for example, is very destructive to understanding and living in reality. Taken to the extreme, the religious think their opinions are fact.

Secular humanism is a wonderful way to structure a life of service to others with high ethical standards. :)

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Originally Posted by Choux

Dear Simone, Not only why should you reject Christianity, but why believe in anything "supernatural" at all?

IN order to *believe* in a religion, a person has to suspend his or her rational disbelief in the laws of nature....that is harmful to a person's thinking process because the idea that it is ok to claim one's belief as fact, not only in religious matters but everyday conversation about politics and biology, for example, is very destructive to understanding and living in reality. Taken to the extreme, the religious think their opinions are fact.

Secular humanism is a wonderful way to structure a life of service to others with high ethical standards. :)

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Always the voice of reason. Great post!:)

Thank you. :)

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

It sounds like a cop out because you're saying, "Jesus was great, so Christianity is great. We all want to be like Jesus, but we can't because he was just that great. We are the living representatives of our religion, and even though we sometimes totally blow the standard set forth by that really great guy, you should forget about that and still become one of us, because Jesus was just that great."

To the non-Christian it sounds like an excuse to not be "great". Maybe it's just me.

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That is just it. We all have some inner desire to be "good" or the best that we can be.
Everyone, Christians included, falls short of that ideal, and sometimes Christians give the impression that there are all these rules to be followed as a means of attaining goodness.
No Christian is "perfect" to his fellow person, and they inevitable end up being hypocritical. This is legalism, what Jesus was against, all these pharisaical rules.

It is exactly this realization that I am not so "great," that is, a sinner: and that Jesus died for the forgiveness of my sins that led me to Christ. Like the song "Just as I am" or the wretch In "Amazing Grace":)
















G&p

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Originally Posted by inthebox

That is just it. We all have some inner desire to be "good" or the best that we can be.
Everyone, Christians included, falls short of that ideal, and sometimes Christians give the impression that there are all these rules to be followed as a means of attaining goodness.
No Christian is "perfect" to his fellow person, and they inevitable end up being hypocritical. This is legalism, what Jesus was against, all these pharisaical rules.

It is exactly this realization that I am not so "great," that is, a sinner: and that Jesus died for the forgiveness of my sins that led me to Christ. Like the song "Just as I am" or the wretch In "Amazing Grace":)

G&p

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But surely you realize the attitude and manner of many Christians and their dismissal of their hypocritical behavior turns others off, right? For example - Chrissy Christian is against premarital sex. She tells me I'm going to hell for having premarital sex. Then she has premarital sex, but she says she's not going to hell because she's "saved" or because she prayed for forgivness. Me? Oh, I'm still going to hell, because I'm not saved. In the mean time, Chrissy Christian continues to have premarital sex, but insists she is going to heaven. She's using her belief in Jesus/God to legitimize her behavior, instead of trying to hold herself to the standard her religion calls for.

So yes, she might have the desire to be "good", and she might fall short sometimes, but there is a difference between the occasional slip up and continuing the negative behavior, or, just in general, being a bad person.

Those are the people who give Christians a bad name. Not the ones who once in a while make a mistake - we all make mistakes. But the ones who continue to make those mistakes, continue to make poor choices, pass judgement, and are just overall bad people, but they clain "goodness" because they are Christian. Chrissy in my example is the living face of your religion - and she's not doing a very good job of making it appealing.

Agreed:

But in the example you use, we don't know if "Chrissy Christian" may have repented from drugs, robbery, assault and is in the sanctifying process of repenting from sexual promiscuity.

That is between her and God.

Righteousness before God is ours by grace - Jesus' death and resurrection. Not by the pride of our "good works."




g&p

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Originally Posted by inthebox

Agreed:

But in the example you use, we don't know if "Chrissy Christian" may have repented from drugs, robbery, assault and is in the sanctifying process of repenting from sexual promiscuity.

That is between her and God.

Righteousness before God is ours by grace - Jesus' death and resurrection. Not by the pride of our "good works."

g&p

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So if she's in the process of repenting, it's OK? There we are - right back to "cop out".

Additionally, your statement about righteousness can easly be taken to mean, "Jesus died for me, my works don't matter. I can do whatever I want because Jesus died for me and I'm 'saved'." Again, right back to "cop out".

2 Pet 3:16
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
(KJV)

Even the Bible tells us that it is possible for us to twist scriptures so that they fit our personal agenda.

Not a good thing for us to do!

That's sick.
I'm a Christian, and those people should be ashamed.

You know what, I'm not a Christian, I'm a beleiver. I hate religion, I love my God. I don't go to church, because I don't believe in listening to a guy preach at me, I stay at home with my family and we look at the bible for OURSELVES.

Those people are wrong and need to get their facts strait.
I'm such a strong beleiver and I love God more then anything, he is my savior, my life, but I don't blame you, and if I wherent a Christian myself, and didn't have this amazing sightful family, I wouldn't want to be a Christian either.

I'm ashamed of the church, and of all the ways they twist the bible to suit them.

God is the one true leader, if you want to change his word to suit your perfect little life, you should be ashamed and not bother at all.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Sounds like a great couple of faith, and I would agree before I was living in a place with someone that practiced witch craft I would sleep in my car also.

You did offer to help and do a moral good for someone in need, but often we have to suffer for our faith,

I am sorry you are offended but it shows how much a Christian faith does to keep itself seperate from those who practice unholy faiths

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Unholy faiths in YOUR opinion. You don't have to be a Christian to have a good moral code. And you don't necessarily have a good moral code if you proclaim yourself to be a Christian. I was baptized as a Christian at age 7. But I would not call myself a Christian today. Christianity is so EXclusive. So contingent and so conditional. In MY opinion, that is a bad thing. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Capuchin

I thought that was atheists.

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I thought that was dingos!:D

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Originally Posted by Choux

Dear Simone, Not only why should you reject Christianity, but why believe in anything "supernatural" at all?

IN order to *believe* in a religion, a person has to suspend his or her rational disbelief in the laws of nature....that is harmful to a person's thinking process because the idea that it is ok to claim one's belief as fact, not only in religious matters but everyday conversation about politics and biology, for example, is very destructive to understanding and living in reality. Taken to the extreme, the religious think their opinions are fact.

Secular humanism is a wonderful way to structure a life of service to others with high ethical standards. :)

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To proclaim that your belief is a cold hard fact , that all should follow is arrogance , in my humble opinion. ;)

Us and them, a lonely, separatist illusion.

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Originally Posted by cozyk

I thought that was dingos!:D

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So why did the poor dingos get a serve?