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You don't know that god exists, you believe it. If you sinccerely believe in god he does exist. Its simple, you don't really need a lot of organized religion and stuff. I'm jewish, but I don't believe everything the torah says, like I'm not a creationist, I believe in evolution, but I still believe in god
Not all people are monotheists unless you speak for yourself... What I mentioned works for atheists (in fact it was a real story.. regarding an atheist) as well as for monotheist as you are.Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
You didn't answer the question. You said that in a time of storm the only one you would call is God. So you try and wiggle out of that by saying you didn't mean any one particular God? 1 God, many Gods, how do you know which one to call upon? Shall we ignore Zeus, Wotan, and Thor, and stick with the modern day Gods like Allah and the Christian God?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_am
You also said:Really... Then how do you explain that 98% of National Academy of Sciences members are atheists? And biologists (who make their living studying the living organisms, which you imagine lead towards belief in God), are MORE likely not to believe in God than the average scientist!Quote:
If you want to know God be a scientist.
Btw- I am not a monotheist. The existence of any god is highly unlikely. The existence of multiple gods even more so.
lobrobster
"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements -- surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
when the morning stars sang together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" {Job 38:4-7 RSV}
"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?"
Where was man? He was not even in existence yet. That is why in all the centuries since this question was asked of Job, science has never been able to settle the question of origin. Where did the universe come from? How did it originate? Who brought it into being? What process was followed? The whole world is debating that question today, but science has never been able to answer the question of the origin of the earth so what “evidence” is it that you follow?
The only answer that science can give today is gravity, but what is gravity? Here again is a question that we still cannot answer today. How is the earth suspended between the various heavenly bodies in such a way that it moves in such orderly procession through the illimitable reaches of space? How can it be? We still do not know. Finally, God says, "Were you there when it happened?" and he links it with a tremendous event when the whole creation seemed to break into harmony and melody, "when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy."
On Faith some people would have it that it was all just an accident.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_crow
You are correct that we do not yet have the answers to origin or abiogenesis. But just because science cannot yet provide a definitive conclusion, does not mean that we get to make up our own answer!
Also FYI- There are actually a number of problems with gravity and it is NOT well understood! Mainly, it should be much more powerful than it is. Quantum and string theory suggest that it may be 'leaking' into other dimensions!
My main point is that you should describe your beliefs about invisible entities and other imaginary conclusions as 'faith' and leave it at that. People like myself might not agree with your reasons, but it holds some respectable quality in that you at least acknowledge your use of 'faith'. I do not mean to denounce those with faith. I don't agree with it, but everyone has a right to believe what they want despite a complete lack of evidence for their beliefs. It's only when people try to use science to support these beliefs. That's when they begin to make serious fools of themselves. Science has nothing to say about invisible gods, except that they are very unlikely to exist.
Simone de Beauvoir once said: “It was easier for me to think of a world without a creator than of a creator loaded with all the contradictions of the world.”
If there was no Creator, then it follows that life must have started spontaneously by chance. Furthermore, for life to have begun and been sustained on earth, these chance events would have had to be repeated thousands of times. But how likely is it for even one such event to take place?
On the other hand, by studying the physical world, from the minute subatomic particles to the vast galaxies, scientists have discovered that all known natural phenomena appear to follow certain basic laws. In other words, they have discovered logic and order in everything that is taking place in the universe, and not chance.
Origin of Species presented a direct challenge to the Bible's teaching of creation by God. What was the response of the churches? At first the clergy in England and elsewhere denounced the theory. But opposition soon faded. It seemed that Darwin's speculations were just the excuse sought by many clergymen who were entertaining doubts in secret. Thus, within Darwin's lifetime, “most thoughtful and articulate clergy had worked their way to the conclusion that evolution was wholly compatible with an enlightened understanding of scripture,” says The Encyclopedia of Religion.
Rather than come to the defense of the Bible, Christendom yielded to the pressure of scientific opinion and played along with what was popular. What did the churches do? Instead of taking a stand for what the Bible teaches, they gave in to the pressures and compromised even on such fundamental articles of faith as creation by God and the authenticity of the Bible. The result? Christendom's churches began to lose credibility, and many people began to lose faith. The failure of the churches to come to their own defense left the door wide open for the masses to march out. To many people, religion became no more than a sociological relic, something to mark the high points in one's life—birth, marriage, death. Many all but gave up the search for the true God.
As P. Valadier stated:
“It was the Christian tradition that produced atheism as its fruit; it led to the murder of God in the consciences of men because it presented them with an unbelievable God.” Be that as it may, we can take comfort in the words of the apostle Paul: “What, then, is the case? If some did not express faith, will their lack of faith perhaps make the faithfulness of God without effect? Never may that happen! But let God be found true, though every man be found a liar.” (Romans 3:3, 4)
Yes, there is every reason to continue the search for the true God
Lobrobster is correct in one point when he asks "which god". The world is full of "gods".
1 Cor 8:5-6
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
(KJV)
The only believeable god is the one who has revealed Himself to mankind in a tangible way.
John 6:46
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
(KJV)
This has to be understood in the light of other Scriptures. Abraham did see God in the form of a man, but not in His glory.
John 14:9-11
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
(KJV)
Here Jesus plainly tells us that he has shown us exactly what the Father is like, and verified that revelation by performing miracles. There is no need to guess.
When one believes in Zeus and the other gang.. he would turn back to the only real God.. when he get in real trouble.. That is what was trying to say.. Whether you have 200 Gods or only one.. when things get serious.. you return back to the real only one.Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
Explanantion : How many people do know that smoking is a direct cause to cancer.. (same applies to alcohol)? So this replies to your question.. about scientists.. You know the truth and turn your back to it.. and exactly happens with smokers who are absolutely sure that smoking is very likely to get cancer.Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
I said to know God not to believe in God... cos you may believe in him without knowing his greatness.. BUT scientists DO KNOW how great he is.. but whether to believe in him or not.. that is another question.
When you say the existence of any god.. etc.. . how do you know ? Are you a scientist? Did your experimentations and knowledge lead you to that conslusion? I am sure not.. so again.. go and learn.. (be a scientist) and I assure you you would know something better than saying.. 'I guess'.
By the way.. some scientists did mention the probability thing.. and they proved that the probability of having no God is somehing close to ZERO (they said.. 1/10000.. I don't know many many exactly.. but so long 0000etc.).
How can you tell that God exists? - When you see the sun rise in the morning and the stars in the sky at night. When you see children smiling free and happy. When you see the elderly walking past as if they know something you don't. When you feel a love in your heart for other's you only meet once. When you feel safe and secure and looked after, but no one else is there. When you feel loved and cherished in your quiet moments. When in your heart you know it's right to give and forgive. When it's easier for you to love then hate. When you look all around you, at the beauty that has been created both of nature and the people walking by. That is how you know that God exsistQuote:
Originally Posted by Jigicou
How can you tell that God is effecting your life? - When you wish to do better and feel that you can. When you want to help someone and know that you will. When you forgive someone who has hurt you and want the best for them. When you are sorry for the things you should not have done and feel great joy for doing the things you should do. When you feel love in your heart for all the people in the world and want to share that love. When difficult times approach, but you feel a strength you didn't know that you have and mostly when you have peace at heart and want to share that peace with others. When you can accept and love, those who look like you, those who don't, those that sound like you, those that don't, those that beleive as you do and those that dont, that's when you know God is effecting your life.
Does that explain the many who die of cancer, who have never smoked? Or does it confirm that there are other factors, besides smoking? As with the God we choose to believe in, is HE only found in your bible? Or can we find him elsewhere? HMMMM! Wonder if the OP, is still around and has formed an opinion?Quote:
You know the truth and turn your back to it.. and exactly happens with smokers who are absolutely sure that smoking is very likely to get cancer.
I feel him when I pray. And I have been healed when I was very sick. And I have seen many many miracles. My best friend was driving to the doctor crying because she was on her way to get a hysterectomy, they said she was eaten up with endometriosis and it all had to come out she wouldn't be able to ever have a baby and when she got to the doctor, they prepared her for surgery and as she waited for them to come and get her she prayed and asked God
Why he was letting this happen to her and in the middle of all of her crying she started laughing hysterically. Of course it sounded like she was going crazy, but when the nurse came in she said they had to do a few test before the surgery as for procedure. 15 minutes later the doctor came in the room and said that she was pregnant, one of the test they had to do was a pregnancy test and it was positive. Her sons name is Jacob and he's just precious. I have many amazing things that I have seen with my own eyes and I sit here with a smile on my face just thinking about them. I love the lord with all of my heart and his spirit is part of who I am. That's the only way that I can tell you to know that he's real I could say look at the things around you or feel your heartbeat but others would find some way to explain it so that they don't have to believe. But to feel him in your heart and to have him speak to your spirit no one can explain that away. He loves you even if you question him, in other words he's good even when we're not thanks to his mercy. I urge you to get wisdom from his word. If you will study in the bible you will see all of the things that was suppose to happen has happened . He looks down on some of these conversations I'm sure with such sadness, but I hope that you will at least consider him because he's good to me all of the time. If the bible is confusing to you I can offer a few songs to you so that you may understand a little from that direction of learning. Good luck in your search to find him but if you will look about 5 inches or so beneath your chin I believe you might feel him.
I have seen many miricles in my own life too. I think it takes more faith to be an athiestist than it does to believe there is a supernatural designer and creator.
Lobrobster you also have "faith". You have dismissed the possibility of God's existence despite the fact that you have no way of proving it. Instead you have chosen to put your faith in the hope that scientist will figure out the origin. So your views are not based on evidence but rather on faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
Can't believe I missed the opening of this thread.
As always these discussions play out this way, so I too shall play along.
One argument as to the existence of God is actually quite simple to understand. If you visited Mars and happened upon a watch, fully functional, working parts, would you not logically conclude that something/someone was here before you? As Fr. Chuck mentioned, look around at the complexity of every living thing and tell me was this just a random mish mash of gases and matter formed? Everything has order, everything has a purpose, it is called intelligent deseign.
The only counter argument to the above mentioned is that if you were to place a million monkeys in a room with typewriters they would eventually reproduce all of Shakespears plays. That, to me, is a more foolish idea than the existence of a God, logically speaking.
Seems as if non-beleivers place such faith in science and therefore man. If God truly wishes to remain hidden, do you think man could uncover this? Science, for all it worth, has not even begin to discover all the truths about Planet Earth, let alone the Universe. (Actually I urge all to watch the BBC program called Planet Earth, just for the fact it is wonderfully educational and well done, although it is applicable to this discussion).
Actually it doesn't. It takes no faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
Please read this: Negative proof - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaQuote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
An atheist doesn't simply lack positive belief in God. The atheist has positive belief in the non-existence of God
So it is not a matter of negative proof. It is a matter of dismissing God's existence despite one's inabity to prove he does not exist.
Other wise one could just make a statement that "there are no cows in india"... well can you prove it... "huh...no it would be negative proof"
That does make sense, its just a cop out. If you want to claim there are no cows in india, prove it. If you can't prove it and you still believe it, then we can rightfully say that you have "faith" that cows don't exist in India.
In the same way if you can not prove god does not exist but you choose to believe it anyway. Im afraid that's faith.
Even bold letters won't help your argument:
atheism - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
Quote:
atheism
To a: a disbelief in the existence of deity b: the doctrine that there is no deity
a·the·ism (ā'thē-ĭz'əm)Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
n.
Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
The doctrine that there is no God or gods.
atheism: Definition and Much More from Answers.com
Yes this definition proves atheism is a "doctine" based on faith not fact
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