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Well, they need to grow up and get over it. Like it or not, (and obviously many don't like it) this is a pluralistic society and no one group has the right to get all bent out of shape and throw tantrums because some public references to the holidays are generic rather than sectarian. Sounds like something the Taliban would do.Quote:
Originally Posted by fallen2grace
The mentality that majority "wins" is a dangerous one.Quote:
Originally Posted by fallen2grace
I for one don't have a problem with Christians refusing to patronize a store which does not say "Merry Christmas", though I think it's a petty battle to fight. People have the right to spend their dollars where they wish, but what you DON'T have the right to do is insist everyone do as YOU wish. In a capitalist society, organizations are free to run their business as they see fit; Target has "Merry Christmas" signs, Wal-Mart (I think) says "Happy Holidays". It's up to the organization, and if they feel they are being damaged so horribly by consumers not shopping there because of their choice they will change it. But I have to say, there were people camping outside of my local Best Buy last night at 7pm; and THEY say "Happy Holidays". I think it's a losing battle, but that's just me.
I've been in stores or interacted with people who end their conversation with "And you have a blessed day" or "May God bless you" or something to that effect. It doesn't bother me; I simply smile, say thank you and move on. I have a hard time understanding why (some) Christians are unable to do the same. To each their own, I suppose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fallen2grace
It's really irrelevant how many people celebrate Christmas, as the fact shows that NOT everyone does. Everyone does, however, wants to avoid irritation and people should acknowledge the fact that some are going to be offended when they say those kinds of greetings. That's why they ought to just stick with "hello" or "have a nice day". Who'd be offended at that?
Fallen:
To paraphrase Churchill;
You have offended someone? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
It is sad that people find Christmas, pertaining to Jesus Christ and not the commercial aspect, offensive.
Grace and Peace
I believe this is a two way street. I hear that stores should just keep the everyday greetings during the Christmas season because not everyone celebrates Christmas. Okay, so what about those of us who do? Why is it that we need to be respectful of those who don't by the public doing away with "Merry Christmas" greetings? Why can't those who don't celebrate Christmas be respectful of those who do? Why do Christians have to do the giving up of their traditions to please those who don't hold the same traditions? I'm not saying all of those who don't celebrate Christmas are disrespectful, I am simply saying that since respect is what we all want where is it for Christ?
Especially with stores. They make more money in one wallop during this time of the year than they do all year so why not say Merry Christmas? They provide our decorations and gifts, why then do away with saying Merry Christmas? I think those who don't celebrate Christmas should respect that some of us do, and should be okay with well wishes of a Merry Christmas. Again, I am not saying that all do have a problem with it, but why then, do some take it away? For respect for their non-beliefs? Well, where is the believers respect?
It's a two way street.
I'm sure those who celebrate Hanukkah, Kwanza and other religious holidays feel the same way, moon.
Why is it so important a stranger acknowledge that you are a Christian?
The respect for Christ comes in how YOU celebrate the holiday; how YOU behave how YOU treat others, the kind of person YOU are - not in what some minimum wage seasonal worker says to you as you hand over your Visa.
And those stores which provide your Christmas decorations also provide other denominations their decorations and gifts too, so why do you "win" the battle of what employees say to you?
I just don't see how it is disrespectful to anyone of any denomination or no denomination to wish them a happy holiday season or tell them to have a nice day. Must be part of that "Christian Persecution" thing I don't understand.
I think the important thing to remember is that this is a society based on a free economy. Those stores aren't really trying to put Christianity down. They are trying to maximize profit.Quote:
Originally Posted by fallen2grace
We need to vote with our dollars. Don't spend any money on any store that doesn't recognize the real meaning of Christmas. If they prefer to say, "Happy Holidays", explain to them why you won't spend your money in their establishment until they recognize the real reason for the season.
Now, many nonChristians will protest that it isn't our right. But the fact is, that it is our right as Americans. We can spend our dollars where we see fit and we can tell them why we spend our dollars where we see fit.
Sincerely,
De Maria
De Maria,
That is a great idea. I support it 100%.
But as Americans it is also important to recognize the diversity present within our society. If stores begin recognizing Christians by wishing everyone who passes through the store this time of year a 'Merry Christmas', that would then, in your perspective, be disrespectful to those who celebrate other holidays because the real reason for their celebration is not acknowledged. Correct?
Or does that not matter since other religions are not as signifcant, important, or deserving of recognition as Christianity?
Or do you not even see it as disrespectful when someone else's religion is not recognized, only your own? Doesn't that make you a bit arrogant? That only your holiday need be recognized, and others... well, because they're not the majority, they can just learn to deal with it? Or become Christian so it doesn't bother them anymore?
Whom are you addressing?Quote:
Originally Posted by margog85
In addition to Thanksgiving not starting until after Halloween, and Christmas after Thanksgiving, could the political campaigning wait until after New years?
I agree with you. I don't really care what the employee says to me to be honest with you. I'm not trying to rally to keep "Merry Christmas" as a greeting. I think you may have missed my point, but maybe I was not very clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
What I was getting at is that we all want respect for our beliefs, we all would like for things to go our way, but that cannot be for everyone cannot be happy with just one way. So, why protest the saying of Merry Christmas in the first place? Why is it such a big deal? Why not have respect for those of us who do celebrate Christmas? Why change what is already there to please yourself? Why not just say to yourself... Christmas is a celebration for many people, what will it hurt for me to hear a Merry Christmas greeting when I check out? When the Christmas season comes around, Christmas is all around you. Everywhere you look are decorations, music and in the very store you don't want to hear Merry Christmas is full of Christmas items to purchase. You may not celebrate nor like Christmas, but it will not go away. If you are going to have to deal with Christmas every where you look until it is over then why not deal with hearing a Merry Christmas greeting? You who are opposed act as though we are making a big deal out of not excepting that stores will no longer acknowledge Christ during the holiday, but what about those who are opposed to it? It seems to me that the bigger deal being made is by those who are against it. The trouble you go through to change it seems like making it a big deal to me, when even though it is changed in some stores, Christmas is still all around you, even in those very stores? What then, have you truly accomplised? What then, was the point? If Christ is taken out of this holiday for the public to please those who do not believe in Christ, then you have displeased those who do. How do people who don't agree with Christmas justify their wantings over those wantings of the Christians? If for the public Christ has been taken out of this holiday out of respect for those who do not celebrate Christmas, then Christians would feel disrespected. For Christ is the whole reason for Christmas. So, with that said, how can you truly justify either way? And not just Christmas and no Christmas. It would still be this way if people said Happy Hunakkah, Happy Kawanza, what have you. Someone will get what they want and the other won't. That's what I meant by it's a two way street. Or rather a two way, multi-lane interstate.
Therefore, my point is... Christmas will not go away no matter what you do, no matter what greeting you get, so why be bothered by hearing "Merry Christmas"?
In an effort to not offend anyone and be "diverse" no one's uniqueness is recognized.
We are all commanded to be bland inoffensive people in the name of politically correct ideology/ religion that is forcing its belief on those that care about what matters most to us Christians - faith in Jesus Christ.
There is no "freedom FROM religion" in the constitution but a freedom of religious expression.
As to a "persecution complex" check this out
Gillian Gibbons at risk of more serious charges after letting her class of 7-year-olds name a teddy bear Muhammad
Personally, I am offended that I cannot share my beliefs in some settings without being told I am intolerant and politically uncorrect. Any other person may share their beliefs, but to be a Christian is to offend. Jesus was highly offensive to the Pharisees. It is good to be considered with Him.
My previous post was in response to the post by De Maria.
As far as MoonlitWaves' post... I do understand what you're saying, but I think some things you said aren't necessarily true. For example:
"why protest the saying of Merry Christmas in the first place? Why is it such a big deal? Why not have respect for those of us who do celebrate Christmas? Why change what is already there to please yourself? Why not just say to yourself...Christmas is a celebration for many people, what will it hurt for me to hear a Merry Christmas greeting when I check out?"
I don't think the protest is against saying 'Merry Christmas'- rather, stores, attempting to be more inclusive, have attempted to transition to a more generic holiday greeting in recognition of the fact that #1, not everyone is Christian, celebrates Christmas, and this greeting simply does not make sense to be given to each customer (imagine if each time you went to the store, the cashier wished you a 'happy birthday' under the assumption that it was, or at least could be, your birthday when in actuality it was not. Wouldn't it be, at the very least, a bit strange? And, needless to say, very obviously an insincere wish, since they don't even know or care if it's your birthday? Trying to determine someone's religion in the 2 minute interaction between employee and customer is about as easy as looking at someone and knowing it's their birthday-), and #2, their concern is not, and should not be, to keep 'Christ in Christmas'- that is up to the individual and their way of celebrating. Stores are not religious institutions- they are a necessary component of our capitalist society which financially takes advantage of the 'Holiday Season' and uses marketing tactics to coerce those celebrating holidays at this time of year to pump money into the economy during the winter months, when, without holiday celebrations, our economy would suffer.
I personally am not offended if I hear Merry Christmas- I think the shift in what people are 'permitted' by their employers to say is simply an attempt to be more inclusive of other religions-
I, nor anyone I know, take offense to people assuming we're Christian, although we're not. I've seen more of a push from the Christian side to get store associates saying 'Merry Christmas' than from the secular side wanting to hear 'Happy Holidays'. Christians seem to be the ones becoming more offended at an attempt to be inclusive than non-Christians at an attempt to integrate religion into consumerism.
"How do people who don't agree with Christmas justify their wantings over those wantings of the Christians? If for the public Christ has been taken out of this holiday out of respect for those who do not celebrate Christmas, then Christians would feel disrespected. For Christ is the whole reason for Christmas. So, with that said, how can you truly justify either way? And not just Christmas and no Christmas. It would still be this way if people said Happy Hunakkah, Happy Kawanza, what have you. Someone will get what they want and the other won't. That what's I meant by it's a two way street.
It's not that those who don't celebrate christmas want to 'remove christ' from christmas. They, along with more open minded christians, are simply making an effort to be inclusive and wish someone well in a way that would make sense to someone of any belief, not just christians celebrating christmas. No one would be excluded if the greeting simply remained 'happy holidays'- so anyone celebrating any holidays at this time is acknowledged by someone who doesn't have a clue as to what holiday it is that person could be celebrating- no assumptions are made, no incorrect perceptions of someone's religious beliefs--- why is that seen as such a bad thing, or an 'attack' on christmas?
"Christmas will not go away no matter what you do, no matter what greeting you get, so why be bothered by hearing "Merry Christmas"?"
No one wants christmas to 'go away'- very few are actually BOTHERED by being wished merry christmas- and those who are seldom complain, boycott stores, and escalate the issue to the extent that christians do when 'christmas' is not specifically mentioned.
You know the meaning of the holiday you are celebrating and you celebrate it in your own way, that should be sufficient, and typically is for many people.
Diversity will not go away no matter what you do, and no matter what greeting you get- so why be bothered by hearing 'Happy Holidays'?
"No one wants christmas to 'go away'- very few are actually BOTHERED by being wished merry christmas- and those who are seldom complain, boycott stores, and escalate the issue to the extent that christians do when 'christmas' is not specifically mentioned."
I disagree with this statement. Everywhere there is a protest about anything there are always people who are for and against. So I seriously doubt saying, "Christians protests more than others", is factual.
"Diversity will not go away no matter what you do, and no matter what greeting you get- so why be bothered by hearing 'Happy Holidays'?"
You said exactly what I did but from your stand point. Arguments are good on both sides, both make sense.
I personally, as I said before, do not care what greeting I get. I plan on having a Merry Christmas regardless. My argument was coming from the thought that there are people out there who, with trying to take away the words Merry Christmas, are wanting to take Christ out of it. There are those out there. I'll say it again. Why? Out of respect for their beliefs which do not include Christ? But then if you respect their beliefs you in turn disrespect the Christian's belief.
When FrChuck said that when he gets a Happy Holiday that had the cashier said Hanukkah he would have said, wrong answer? Of course not. It is his preference to hear Merry Christmas. You may feel it is out of line for him to get a cashier to tell him Merry Christmas, but I say it's to each their own.
Really?Quote:
My previous post was in response to the post by De Maria.
You said that, I didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by margog85
The fact is, it is Christians who respect others religions. Christianity respects and teaches freedom of conscience. That is why the founding Fathers created a nation where one may practice freedom of religion. Try practicing your faith in a Muslim nation or in an atheist state like China.Quote:
Or do you not even see it as disrespectful when someone else's religion is not recognized, only your own?
The arrogant one is you. You are arrogant enough to make up a great deal of things which I didn't say and attribute them to me. That is not just arrogance, it is dishonesty.Quote:
Doesn't that make you a bit arrogant?
Now, if I said the things which you attribute to me, please point them out. Provide the quote.Quote:
That only your holiday need be recognized, and others... well, because they're not the majority, they can just learn to deal with it? Or become Christian so it doesn't bother them anymore?
Otherwise, I suggest you read my previous message again and next time, engage the actual message.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Really? Because it's Christians I see on the corner with signs protesting movies or policical actions. It's Christians who declared the "War on Christmas" when the STORES decided to say "Happy Holidays". I've never seen or heard of anyone causing a ruckus because a store says "Merry Christmas", but there has been a "War" declared for saying "Happy Holidays". I've also seen very little protesting from other religious groups about what is taught in schools, what books are in our libraries... Just a little story for you, my mom works for the county library system. When Christians find books they don't like in the library, they make a fuss about it and demand the book be removed. If it is not removed, they check the books out and never return them, or rip out the offending pages (like medical books depicting genitals). I also remember hearing about Christian groups going into grocery stores, filling their carts with frozen foods, and leaving them in the aisles to protest the sale of (I think) Harry Potter books in the grocery store. So maybe there's no "official statistic" about Christians and protest, but it certainly seems they are the group who is the most vocal.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonlitWaves
You think Christ has been taken out of Christmas simply because every person you interact with doesn't say "Merry Christmas"? I think Christ was lost from Christmas years ago when the push to consumerism and materialism took over the holiday and the focus on the significance of the holiday from a religious aspect has been largely forgotten. I think that, and I'm not even a Christian! Virtually every atheist I know celebrates Christmas as a time to get together with the ones we love and exchange gifts. Doesn't THAT take the Christ out of Christmas, when people who don't believe in god celebrate the holiday? And sorry, but how is it disrespecting one's belief by not saying "Merry Christmas"? You still believe, and YOU have the right to respond to a "Happy Holidays" wish with "Merry Christmas". Saying "Merry Christmas" specifically excludes certain groups, which in my opinion is far more disrespectful than a generic wish of well-being.Quote:
I personally, as I said before, do not care what greeting I get. I plan on having a Merry Christmas regardless. My argument was coming from the thought that there are people out there who, with trying to take away the words Merry Christmas, are wanting to take Christ out of it. There are those out there. I'll say it again. Why? Out of respect for their beliefs which do not include Christ? But then if you respect their beliefs you in turn disrespect the Christian's belief.
And to those who take issue with "Happy Holidays" why do you not boycott or protest the store for the remainder of the year when they say "Have a nice day" instead of "Have a blessed day"? Is "Have a nice day" not an inclusive wish of well-being with no religious designation? Why is it not an issue for a store on the day before Thanksgiving to say "Have a nice say" but on Black Friday suddenly everyone must say "Merry Christmas"? Seriously, I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I really don't get it. And further, if you don't like that Wal-Mart (or whoever) doesn't say "Merry Christmas" do you refuse to shop there for the remainder of the year?
Are you faulting us because we exercise our rights? Last I looked we have a right to gather peacefully, we have a right of free speech and we have a right to practice our faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
Did you object when feminists burned their bras to demand the freedom to kill infants it their womb?
Do you also object when gays parade up and down the streets demanding the freedom to have their cohabitation recognized as marriage?
Or do you simply object to Christians exercising their rights?
Sincerely,
De Maria
Jillianleab-
You said everything I wanted to say and more.
Tried to give feedback directly to your answer, but wasn't allowed to- said that I need to 'spread some reputation around' before giving it to you again-
lol
I guess I agree with you a lot. =)
But, rather than being repetitious and re-stating everything you said, I'll simply say that I agree 200% and leave it at that.
I actually don't feel the need to contribute anything further at this point.
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