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Originally Posted by Tj3

The gospel was not given TO Jesus. The gospels were penned after Jesus's death and resurrection. That is one error in the Koran. Jesus and the gospel is the Good news (Gospel).

As for your claims of "corruption", we have manuscripts which go back well before the Koran was written, so we know what Mohammed would have known as the Bible at that time (which by the way, is identical to what we have today), so we can prove with absolute certainty that there have been no changes to the content.

BTW, when 3:3 says that salvation was sent, I trust that you know that Yeshua (in Greek - Jesus) means "Salvation".

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Read what the former Christian Preacher Says about Bible
Islam Cracks The Code

Bible Scholars say, "Its Changed"
What Does the Real "Word of God" Say?
Islam Cracks The Code - Da Vinci

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Originally Posted by Peaceful1

Read what the former Christian Preacher Says abt Bible
Islam Cracks The Code

Bible Scholars say, "Its Changed"
What Does the Real "Word of God" Say?
Islam Cracks The Code - Da Vinci

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You know, I don't care what a man says. I know the truth. I know what God has said, I also know what the Koran says (yes, I have read it through a few times)

I have also studied how the Bible has been validated, I even have a copy of the translated Dead Sea scrolls in front of me. I have also seen the evidence of how the Koran has changed over time.

I have also seen the evidence of how the Koran has changed over time.[/QUOTE]

Just by saying you can't prove that Quran has changed.

Sir William Muir (Orientalist) noted, "There is probably in the world no other book which has remained (fourteen) centuries with so pure a text." The Quran was written down during the lifetime and under the supervision of the Prophet, who himself was illiterate, and it was canonized shortly after his death by a rigorous method which scrutinized both written and oral traditions. Thus its authenticity is unblemished, and is its preservation is seen as the fulfillment of God's promise:

"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message, and We will assuredly guard it from corruption."[Noble Quran 15:9]


More?

Visit
What others say about Quran
Allah's Quran - What Others Say

The Scriptures changes lives forever. The apostle Paul put it best :

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Hebrews 4:12. KJV

It IS indeed the standard and the ONLY authority we really have.

Jesus said (paraphrased) Heaven and Earth will pass away but my WORD will NOT pass away. It is THAT important.

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Originally Posted by classyT

The Scriptures changes lives forever. The apostle Paul put it best :

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Hebrews 4:12. KJV

It IS indeed the standard and the ONLY authority we really have.

Jesus said (paraphrased) Heaven and Earth will pass away but my WORD will NOT pass away. It is THAT important.

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It's the only authority 'Scriputre only' folks have. There are some of us who have the Kingdom of God and the Vicar of Chirst as an objective authority.

JoeT

JoeT,

HUH? Call me blonde but... everything the Lord wanted us to know is in His word. The Kingdom of God or Kingdom living is available to any Christian who wants to die to himself and live for Christ. Give me the Holy Spirit any day over the "Vicar of Christ". Why settle for anything less that God himself. Last time I checked MAN has never had an original thought AND had to be saved by the blood of Christ just like me... something to ponder. I'm not suggesting I can't LEARN or be taught interesting truths from the word but any info outside of the word... is NOT the word.

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Originally Posted by classyT

JoeT,

HUH? call me blonde but... everything the Lord wanted us to know is in His word. The Kingdom of God or Kingdom living is available to any Christian who wants to die to himself and live for Christ. Give me the Holy Spirit any day over the "Vicar of Christ". Why settle for anything less that God himself. Last time I checked MAN has never had an original thought AND had to be saved by the blood of Christ just like me.... something to ponder. I'm not suggesting I can't LEARN or be taught interesting truths from the word but any info outside of the word...is NOT the word.

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Classy T,

You have a good point there... to a certain extent!

It is true that NOT all Vicars of Christ have always lived and behaved by the Lord’s Word.

This is because irrespective of their having being appointed Vicars of Christ they are also just plain human beings, and therefore subject to the same failures as you and I.

Still, let me just remind you that the Apostles were also men full of defects as proven by St. Peter reneging three times his Master and St. Thomas disbelieving He had resurrected...

And when you say “everything the Lord wanted us to know is in His word” I gather you are referring basically to the Gospels, are you? :):)

John 8:58
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
(KJV)

John 1:1-5
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
(KJV)

John 1:14
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
(KJV)

Matt 1:23
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
(KJV)

Are these enough verses to convince you that Jesus is both the Son of God and God the Son?

Lets leave the intellectual realm for a moment. Does Mohammed heal anyone of sickness?

Jesus did and still does.

The challenge of Islam cannot be refuted intellectually or by Tradition. Only the displayed power of God through the authority of Jesus Christ can do it.

The Apostle Paul put it this way.

1 Cor 2:4-5
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
(KJV)

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Originally Posted by classyT

JoeT,

HUH? call me blonde but... everything the Lord wanted us to know is in His word. The Kingdom of God or Kingdom living is available to any Christian who wants to die to himself and live for Christ. Give me the Holy Spirit any day over the "Vicar of Christ". Why settle for anything less that God himself. Last time I checked MAN has never had an original thought AND had to be saved by the blood of Christ just like me.... something to ponder. I'm not suggesting I can't LEARN or be taught interesting truths from the word but any info outside of the word...is NOT the word.

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That's the point T - How do you know? The Scriptures don't come complete with authentication. How do you know that Scripture is in fact THE Holy Scriptures? Catholics hold that authentication comes from the Church. Being as you don’t recognize the Catholic Church, how do you authenticate them? How do you know you got the right set of books?


JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

That's the point T - How do you know? The Scriptures don't come complete with authentication. How do you know that Scripture is in fact THE Holy Scriptures? Catholics hold that authentication comes from the Church. Being as you don’t recognize the Catholic Church, how do you authenticate them? How do you know you got the right set of books?


JoeT

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Because Paul was giving the awesome responsibility of completing the scriptures. The Bible says not to ADD or to take anything away and JOE777 if I didn't believe THAT then I subject to consider the book of mormon or any other book outside of the bible as God's word.

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Originally Posted by gromitt82

Classy T,

You have a good point there... to a certain extent!

It is true that NOT all Vicars of Christ have always lived and behaved by the Lord’s Word.

This is because irrespective of their having being appointed Vicars of Christ they are also just plain human beings, and therefore subject to the same failures as you and I.

Still, let me just remind you that the Apostles were also men full of defects as proven by St. Peter reneging three times his Master and St. Thomas disbelieving He had resurrected...

And when you say “everything the Lord wanted us to know is in His word” I gather you are referring basically to the Gospels, are you? :):)

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Gromm,

I am referring to ALL 66 books. I do not go outside of that and say it is God's mind or word.

I am judging NO man, including Vicars of Christ. I am just saying they are men and must be saved. As far as the apostles that wrote books in the Bible, I believe their writings were indeed inspired of God and therefore the word of God. I believe we have teachers and pastors today that can TEACH and explain the Word but if they add something in the teachings and proclaim that it came from God and cannot back it up with verses in the 66 books that complete the bible... I do not recognize it as truth. Make sense.

I would also like to say that when we go outside of the Bible, what then do we accept as truth? I mean Proverbs says "

There is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the end thereof is death.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by classyT

Because Paul was givin the awesome responsibilty of completing the scriptures. The Bible says not to ADD or to take anything away and JOE777 if I didn't believe THAT then i subject to consider the book of mormon or any other book outside of the bible as God's word.

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Nobody is adding or subtracting form the Scripture, (well, except maybe Luther and his Bible of 66 books). I want you to FEEL GOOD about Scriptures. I wouldn’t take that away from you.

But, where in scriptures was Paul given this awesome responsibility? Where is it he authenticated Scripture? You can have ONLY 66 Books if that makes you FEEL GOOD. The only point I’m making is that without the Catholic Church ‘authenticating’ Scripture, there isn’t a Holy Scripture we can infallibly or otherwise rely on or ‘feel good’ about it.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Its the only authority 'Scriputre only' folks have. There are some of us who have the Kingdom of God and the Vicar of Chirst as an objective authority.

JoeT

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Pssst hey Joe, bad news - the Kingdopm of God is owned by God, not your denomination.

You can have you "vicar of Christ", though. The rest of us will just go to Christ directly.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

pssst hey Joe, bad news - the Kingdopm of God is owned by God, not your denomination.

You can have you "vicar of Christ", though. The rest of us will just go to Christ directly.

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Pssst Tom, the gates are always open!

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Nobody is adding or subtracting form the Scripture, (well, except maybe Luther and his Bible of 66 books). I want you to FEEL GOOD about Scriptures. I wouldn't take that away from you.

But, where in scriptures was Paul given this awesome responsibility? Where is it he authenticated Scripture? You can have ONLY 66 Books if that makes you FEEL GOOD. The only point I'm making is that without the Catholic Church 'authenticating' Scripture, there isn't a Holy Scripture we can infallibly or otherwise rely on or 'feel good' about it.

JoeT

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JoeT,

It isn't a matter of feeling good. If it WAS... I'd change all kinds of things in the bible to make me"feel good".. lol Please where did that come from anyway??

The Apostle Paul said it in Colossians 1:25

... of which I became minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given me towards you to complete the word of God, ( Darby translation)

KJ version: whereof I am made a minister according to the dispensation of God which I given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God.

Now I'm going to give you a little advise, take it or leave it. I have an idea what you are going to do with it... lol here it goes... JOET - you come off as grumpy!! A grumpy catholic is NOT a good thing. If you want to really make me feel good... lighten up dude. You are grouchy.:D

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Originally Posted by classyT

the Bible

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The NT (canon) was put together in book form by men (from the Catholic Church).

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Originally Posted by classyT

JOET - you come off as grumpy!!!! A grumpy catholic is NOT a good thing. If ya wanna really make me feel good...lighten up dude. You are grouchy.:D

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I can't help the lenses that color your perception, rightly or wrongly. I don't mind being grumpy. I love being Catholic – It feels good when right reasoning in the Magisterium of the Church one can get some semblance of God's Truth. But, you're right about one thing, grumpy Catholics are'nt good things. When I see a real grumpy Catholic I'll give them your advice - courtesy of 'T'

But, forgive me if for now I take your advice as a badge of honor.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

That's the point T - How do you know? The Scriptures don't come complete with authentication. How do you know that Scripture is in fact THE Holy Scriptures?

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Really? You don't think that God's authentication is enough? You don't think that Jesus using scripture alone to validate doctrine is authentication? You don't think that God meant it when He told us that prophetic fulfillment was validation?

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Catholics hold that authentication comes from the Church. Being as you don’t recognize the Catholic Church, how do you authenticate them? How do you know you got the right set of books?

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I would not wait for the word of a denomination that came into being 3 centuries after the last book of scripture was written. Did the Jews wait for your denomination to say "Thanks goodness, finally we have authentication?"

No, authentication comes from God, not man.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Pssst Tom, the gates are always open!

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You been there? :p

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

The NT (canon) was put together in book form by men (from the Catholic Church).

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Really? So you are telling me that the Jews had nothing, that the entire OT is a complete fabrication?

You are telling me that in the NT when a variety of books of the NT were already called as Holy Scripture, that those who penned those books, including the Apostles had no authority, and we all had to wait until a specific denomination came into existence a few centuries later?