Ask Me Help Desk - What biblical support is there for asking saints to pray for us?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

YOU said "slippery slop." I'm hoping that was a typo on your part.

So we are into going after typos rather than dealing with the topic. Maybe you missed what I said about "discussing" the issue.

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term = imitation of Christ

I addressed that in detail.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

It is if you are claiming (as you did) that we are to do everything that Jesus did, even when He was transfigured into the glorified state as God.

Then by all means, prove that the fact of his being transfigured shows that we are not to speak to dead-in-the-flesh saints. You have made plenty of allusions, but that's it. There are manifold ways in which we simply haven't the capacity to imitate Christ. But where we do have the capacity, we are obligated to do so. But even more, we should want to imitate him. Why don't you? Are you so confident of your own salvation that you feel it is beneath you to endeavor, in every way you can, to imitate the ways of your Lord and Savior?

I still find it remarkably peculiar that you adhere to such an un-Christian view of death, one you have yet to vindicate (despite more ALLUSIONS to history). Christ conguered death and promised eternal life to his saints. You seem also to regard heaven as something very remote and alien. This is also very un-Christian. In fact, it is in some ways closer to certain forms of Islam.

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Like I said before, we are seeing the slow degradation into the abuse stage of this thread, just as has happened on there threads where your denomination's unique doctrine have been challenged from scripture.

Of course by using abuse to distract from the topic, you avoid the issue.

More abuse I see.

Now false accusations.

You're a big boy. You can take it. Though you do whine like a little kid. (Just wanted to give you something else to complain about in your next post.)

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You may wish to check what necromancy is before further comment heh heh!

Not quite sure what motivates the "heh heh!". It is perfectly obvious--even to one who doesn't favor prayer to the saints--that that practice is a world away from necromancy. It's also a practice that Christians have been engaging in since the first century, and which Christians have been encouraged by their bishops to engage in--again, since the first century. You and your crazy theological novelties.

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Then please show us that you have a command of the topic rather than a talent for abuse and distraction.

Now you still haven't said anything about your beard and forelocks. Nor you have you told us whether you avoid sharing a seat with a menstruating woman. Should I quote you? "I understand why."

If you wish to follow your own very quixotic interpretation of Scripture your are free to do so. I certainly have no interest in trying to persuade you of anything. For my part, I will follow Christ and his ways.

Tj3,
You have proven to me that you do NOT know what you are talking about on this topic, so I'm through discussing it with you.
If others have more evidence about asking saints to pray for us I'm still interested, but you have had notheing to offer.
Fred

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I addressed that in detail.

No, you really didn't.

Quoting Tom: "It's okay. I understand why."

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
You have proven to me that you do NOT know what you are talking about on this topic, so I'm through discussing it with you.

Fred,

If I have a dollar for each time that you said that you would stop discussing one thing or another with me, and then carried on, I'd be retired by now!

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If others have more evidence about asking saints to pray for us I'm still interested, but you have had notheing to offer.

Because my source is scripture and there is nothing in scripture support speaking to the dead.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

No, you really didn't.

Quoting Tom: "It's okay. I understand why."

Akoue, I am not surprised at your denial.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

So we are into going after typos rather than dealing with the topic. Maybe you missed what I said about "discussing" the issue.

It was so droll... so... so... so you!

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Then by all means, prove that the fact of his being transfigured shows that we are not to speak to dead-in-the-flesh saints.

Word twisting again, I see. I never said that. It was you using that incident as an attempt to claim that we should ignore the condemnation of speaking to the dead in favour of imitating what Jesus did in His transfigured state as God.

Nice try, but the onus is on you.

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You have made plenty of allusions, but that's it. There are manifold ways in which we simply haven't the capacity to imitate Christ.

Tell me how to transfigure into God, and I'll concede that we can speak to the dead.

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I still find it remarkably peculiar that you adhere to such an un-Christian view of death, one you have yet to vindicate (despite more ALLUSIONS to history). Christ conguered death and promised eternal life to his saints. You seem also to regard heaven as something very remote and alien. This is also very un-Christian. In fact, it is in some ways closer to certain forms of Islam.

Do you always find it necessary to abuse and mis-represent those who challenge you?

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You're a big boy. You can take it. Though you do whine like a little kid. (Just wanted to give you something else to complain about in your next post.)

Expectations would also be that ALL of us on here - you included - behave maturely. That is what I ask of you. Do you feel that you are somehow permitted to be abusive? Is this what you mean by your unBiblical belief that Jesus "abolished" the law, so that you could behave however you wished?

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Not quite sure what motivates the "heh heh!"

Because you don't appear to realize the irony. If you studied the topic regarding what necromancy is, you may catch on.

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Now you still haven't said anything about your beard and forelocks. Nor you have you told us whether you avoid sharing a seat with a menstruating woman. Should I quote you? "I understand why."

More mis-representations. I guess if you have nothing else to offer...

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For my part, I will follow Christ and his ways.

Glad to hear that you are abandoning speaking to the dead!

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

It was so droll...so...so...so you!

WG,

You keep forgetting that Tom alone dictates the terms of the discussion, and he alone is permitted to make dismissive and demeaning remarks about other posters. Now we've been over this again and again: Get with the program! This is Tom's sand-box. If you can't accommodate yourself to that, just pick up your toys and go play somewhere else. He's already threatened to shut down the thread, so either he is a secret moderator or he has reason to believe that the moderators will do as he demands. Of course, his position isn't faring very well and threads typically close when Tom's position doesn't fare very well.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

It was so droll...so...so...so you!

Still missed that request for respectful discussion I see.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

WG,

You keep forgetting that Tom alone dictates the terms of the discussion, and he alone is permitted to make dismissive and demeaning remarks about other posters. Now we've been over this again and again: Get with the program! This is Tom's sand-box. If you can't accommodate yourself to that, just pick up your toys and go play somewhere else. He's already threatened to shut down the thread, so either he is a secret moderator or he has reason to believe that the moderators will do as he demands. Of course, his position isn't faring very well and threads typically close when Tom's position doesn't fare very well.

Akoue,

I neither threatened to shut down the thread because of your abusive behaviour, or false accusations nor threatened anything else. I have no power or authority or influence to do so. But I would hope that someone who claims to be a professor would behave in a more mature manner than tossing about abuse more akin to children.

I note that my requests for respectful discussion are falling on deaf ears.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Tell me how to transfigure into God, and I'll concede that we can speak to the dead.

Whoa! So you really are confused about the Transfiguration. He didn't transfigure into God; he already was God.

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Because you don't appear to realize the irony. If you studied the topic regarding what necromancy is, you may catch on.

Oh, but I have. I've even discussed it at length with Bill Newman (historian of science and leading scholar of the occult). That's how I know that your claims are without merit.

You still haven't demonstrated that praying to the saints in heaven constitutes speaking to the dead. You can repeat the claim all you like, but clearly it isn't persuading anyone.

Oh, and did I ever claim to speak to the dead? Or pray to saints in heaven, for that matter? You really shouldn't make assumptions.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Whoa! So you really are confused about the Transfiguration. He didn't transfigure into God; he already was God.

I am not confused. You did not read what I said.

That is correct that he was and is God. But we are not, so we would have to transfigure into God.

Slow down and read more carefully.

I note that you did not address the point that I actually raised.

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Oh, but I have. I've even discussed it at length with Bill Newman (historian of science and leading scholar of the occult). That's how I know that your claims are without merit.

Of course you know that referring to some supposed conversation that may or may not have taken place with someone who you may not have met and with whom you may or not have had a conversation, and who may or may not have expressed and opinion on this topic which may or may not have been what you claim is about as weak of an argument as you can get.

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You still haven't demonstrated that praying to the saints in heaven constitutes speaking to the dead.

So are you saying that those are in heaven have flesh?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I neither threatened to shut down the thread

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Once again, are you able to stay on track, or should this thread be shut down before it degenerates further?

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I note that my requests for respectful discussion are falling on deaf ears.

And what of my requests? You still haven't described your beard and forelocks. Nor have you told us whether you are willing to sit where a menstruating woman has sat. I hope not, since that's an abomination.

Maybe when I check in a day or two hence I'll find that you've answered my questions.

Closed

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Of course you know that referring to some supposed conversation that may or may not have taken place with someone who you may not have met and with whom you may or not have had a conversation, and who may or may not have expressed and opinion on this topic which may or may not have been what you claim is about as weak of an argument as you can get.

Right. Whereas you constant mention of armies of scholars who support your claims, none of whom you ever cite, is really compelling. You suggested that I know nothing about necromancy. I told you that I do. That's it. Got anything else?