Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
Don't know anything about micro or macro anything. Unless microwaves and mac and cheese count? :D
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
Don't know anything about micro or macro anything. Unless microwaves and mac and cheese count? :D
I believe animals as well as Humans do evolve, but only within the same kind (micro evolution). For example a wolf and a dog evolved from the same canine ancestor. However I do not believe, as Darwinistss insist, that a wolf like creature evolved into a dolphin or a whale. I am yet to see irrefutable evidence for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by achampio21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
You did not answer the question.
What is the role of school when those who believe in evolution can "get smarter" - via a chance "beneficial mutation" that gives them doctorate level genes... :D...
Because that is the theory is it not? The passing down of "beneficial" chance gene mutations that gives a naturally selected reproductive advantage...
Or do humans "get smarter" by going to school and learning to become more intelligent rather than wait for some naturally selected mutation.
So much is falsely attributed to evolution, that some cannot recognize the intelligence and design that humans possess, as actively demonstrated by science.
You are so right Inthebox. I think it takes more faith to believe in Darwinst claims than it does to believe in aliens. Maybe Credo did'nt attend school because he was hoping he would gain more knowledge and intelligents through natural selection. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
Darwinst - did'nt - intelligents... who didn't attend school??Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
:D :D :D :D :D :D
·
Lol.. I never claimed to be an english major, just a biology major with admittedly horrible spelling skills. :( You on the other hand seem to be relying on "natural selection" to gain knowledge because most of the communication we have seen from you is based on your ignorance of many subject matters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
My god. You're lack of understanding about this subject is astounding. Seriously... Read some books on evolution before embarrassing yourself like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
I'm not sure how old you are, but I hope you're around in 20-30 years when those who don't accept evolution will be held to the same intellectual standing as 'flat earthers' are today.
[QUOTE]I think Inthebox has asked a valid question here. If the driving force for Macro evolution is natural selection for what purpose did us humans develop specialised qualities such as interlect, reasoning ability etc..Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
Out of the thousands upon thousands of species that have ever lived, how come humans are the only species that has developed these highly specialised qualities?
Also, I have always been curious, why did we humans even lose our tail?? I think humans would put a tail to good use. For example now, I could use a tail to drink my cup of tea while I type.. hehe..
So you hope, but like many theories that have come and gone before so will this mythical theory that Humans and banana trees are distant cousins. :rolleyes:Quote:
I'm not sure how old you are, but I hope you're around in 20-30 years when those who don't accept evolution will be held to the same intellectual standing as 'flat earthers' are today.
Lob:
what is your personal definition of evolution?
of natural selection?
My question to Cred, who states humanity gets smarter through evolution, is how?
I state that people get smarter learning and going to school. This has nothing to do with evolution - in the strict biological sense.
In lay terms people use evolution to mean development or advancement or simply change. That is not the definition of biological evolution.
For example, if a car magazine states BMW's new 3 series is not a brand new model, but an "evolution" from the previous generation, evolution means development. It is engineers using their intelligence purposefully that made these developments possible, not some random chance genetic mutation.
Do you understand?
as to my resume, Bachelors in Biology '86, doctorate '91. Health professional. Saved by the grace of God '05. 40s. ;)
and you? :)
Oh Cred, here you are. I thought you had other things to do with your life or some such thing as that. :confused:
Sassyt you go! Cred can't even hold a candle to you. You make perfect sense in your debates, even I can understand some of it.. you are obviously well studied and educated or else you just have great genes.:)
Inthebox, wow I'm impressed. And I can't wait to see Cred's answer.
Saved by the grace of God 1981 I'm not telling my age though.
[QUOTE=sassyT]Quote:
I think Inthebox has asked a valid question here. If the driving force for Macro evolution is natural selection for what purpose did us humans develop specialised qualities such as interlect, reasoning ability etc..
It is thought that our intelligence really took off after we became bipedal. With our hands now free, our brains grew to devise ever more creative and useful ways for carrying things and tool making, etc. Here's one huge misunderstanding about intelligence and evolution...
Intelligence is not something that every animal is necessarily striving for. If you are a gazelle in the open plains of Africa and being stalked by a pride of lions, you would gladly trade any amount of intelligence for speed and agility. So intelligence isn't always the most optimal or efficient way to go. And one reason for this is because...
We humans pay a very high price for our intelligence. Mainly, that we are born so premature. No other animal can afford to spend as much time as we do learning how to walk and feed itself. Due to our big craniums, a human female could never give birth to an infant mature and large enough to be walking and fending for itself in a matter of days or weeks. This means we have a very long childhood. No other animal can afford to fend for their young for such a long period. So again, intelligence is not something that every animal is striving for. It just so happens it is the evolutionary route we humans took and it worked out well for us. Unless of course, we end up blowing ourselves up through technology, or destroying our planet, both of which are very real possibilities.
Tails are mostly used for balance, although some types of monkeys do use them to grasp and carrying things. It's important to remember that everything in evolution comes with an inherent benefit and cost. Obviously, the cost of keeping tails outweighed the benefit for us.Quote:
Also, I have always been curious, why did we humans even lose our tail?? I think humans would put a tail to good use. For example now, I could use a tail to drink my cup of tea while I type.. hehe..
I don't need to hope Sassy. It is already as much of a fact as relative theory is a fact. I'm sure YOU genuinely hope and pray that evolutionary theory will someday be debunked once and for all, so you don't have to come up with new ways to explain your religious book (lord knows it's already been revised enough times to accommodate science). But don't worry... Your god is safe. There will always be an antecedent event you can attribute to god. Again, evolution says nothing about whether god exists. You can always say god started the whole process in motion. We don't yet know how life got started, but even if and when we do, we don't know how the universe got started, but if and when we do... You get my point. You will always be able to find something prior to our current knowledge and claim, 'god did it'.Quote:
So you hope, but like many theories that have come and gone before so will this mythical theory that Humans and banana trees are distant cousins. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=inthebox]Lob:
You are correct that learning different facts (education), has little to do with evolution. It is our capacity to learn those facts that comes through evolution.Quote:
I state that people get smarter learning and going to school. This has nothing to do with evolution - in the strict biological sense.
Serious question and I mean NO disrespect whatsoever, but... How on earth can you have a Bachelors in biology and confuse the very simple distinction between learning a series of facts and/or knowledge acquired from school, with the developmental capacity for intelligence?! Do you honestly think we 'learn' intelligence in schools? C'mon... As for your other comments, see my response to Sassy.Quote:
as to my resume, Bachelors in Biology '86, doctorate '91. Health professional. Saved by the grace of God '05. 40s. ;)
So you were saved by the grace of god 3 years ago? I'd be genuinely interested in your experience if you want to PM me. I am not here to make fun of believers, but to stick up for science and education. It actually scares me that so many people in the U.S. don't accept commonplace science.
Peace.
[QUOTE][QUOTE=lobrobster]Unfortunately this does not answere the question as to WHY out of the hundreds of thousands of species only one (humans) was able to "free its hands" and as a result develop cognition.Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
Also what has freeing of hands have to do with developing a sense of awareness, phylosophy, ability to reason and question one's existence, morality, speech etc??
What are the costs? I think the benefits of a tail would outweigh the cost! Just think how much multi taking we could do.Quote:
Tails are mostly used for balance, although some types of monkeys do use them to grasp and carrying things. It's important to remember that everything in evolution comes with an inherent benefit and cost. Obviously, the cost of keeping tails outweighed the benefit for us.
This is you belief because I am yet to see evidence that would qualify Macro evolution as fact.Quote:
I don't need to hope Sassy. It is already as much of a fact as relative theory is a fact
Lol no, I don't even waist my time praying about things like this because I know there will always be athiestic Zealots like you who want to hold on to this tattered theory because the alternative (creation) is unacceptable to your doctrine that there is no god.Quote:
I'm sure YOU genuinely hope and pray that evolutionary theory will someday be debunked once and for all, so you don't have to come up with new ways to explain your religious book (lord knows it's already been revised enough times to accommodate science????).
Exactly so I am failing to understand why you keep insisting that my disbelief in the theory is because of my religious beliefs. :confused:Quote:
But don't worry... Your god is safe. There will always be an antecedent event you can attribute to god. Again, evolution says nothing about whether or not god exists. You can always say god started the whole process in motion. We don't yet know how life got started, but even if and when we do, we don't know how the universe got started, but if and when we do... You get my point. You will always be able to find something prior to our current knowledge and claim, 'god did it'.
[QUOTE]Apperantly he doesn't have much of a life off line. Only lord knows how many other religious forums out there he is terrorising and harassing.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
Thank you! The sooner Credo realises this the sooner he will give up and just come to terms with the fact that he has beliefs like everyone else. :rolleyes:Quote:
Sassyt you go! Cred can't even hold a candle to you. You make perfect sense in your debates, even I can understand some of it.. you are obviously well studied and educated or else you just have great genes.:)
I will go back to the simple statement by Cred that humanity gets smarter through evolution.Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
You are stating that the capacity for intelligence is evolution. A different proposition, which I won't get into at this time.
I would like to know if either you or Cred has attended a college or grad school?
It has been awhile for me, but I do not believe that Harvard or your local community college is going to accept you by stating "evolution has made me smart enough to be in your school ":)
Ask any doctor, lawyer, engineer, if they got into their professional school based because they got smarter through evolution :) :confused:
If one wants to reduce life to chance mutation and natural selection, and attribute all of life's wonders to a process that's only real principle is survival so be it...
As for me, all praise and glory belongs to God :D
In '05, by the world's standard I was "good," I think I have been more "good" than "bad" so I did not worry. But what I had done was brought to light, and I realized I was a sinner, a sinner in need of help, and in that moment I asked for God's mercy and forgiveness, and it was already granted. :D
I'm not familiar with what Cred said, so I don't want to speak for him. I am only responding to what YOU said.Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
No, it is not a different proposition. We have developed a higher intelligence (brain capacity), through evolution and natural selection. What you seem to be defining as 'smarter', is individual knowledge or one's ability to perform on SAT tests. This has NOTHING to do with our species' overall intellectual acuity!Quote:
You are stating that the capacity for intelligence is evolution. A different proposition, which I won't get into at this time.
Again, I'm not going to speak for Cred. I have an MBA from Northwestern U. focusing in business economics and finance. Before I switched majors, I took a biology course as an undergrad. I don't claim to be a scientist, but I find your inability to differentiate between 'learned knowledge' and intellectual capacity in an evolutionary role, to be embarrassing for someone who has ever taken a course that had any Theory of Evolution as part of the syllabus.Quote:
I would like to know if either you or Cred has attended a college or grad school?
There are varying degrees of human intelligence, but even the dumbest human is still miles ahead of the next most intelligent organism known to man. Your point about colleges accepting applicants based on evolutionary 'smarts' is ridiculous and pure folly.
sassyT to tsila1777 :
"Apperantly, doesnt, terrorising, harrassing, realises".Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
Of course I have beliefs. But none of these is related to religion !
:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :D
·
That is quite a statement without any fact to back it up - just your statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
Where is the research that proves that bipedalism, the origin of which is not known, caused brain development?
What is the selective advantage of incrementlly, over hundreds if not thousands of generations, "getting smarter" bit by bit?Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
If other animal species are so much older than us, for example sharks, why did evolution not make them more intellligent?
Why humans?
Why not even primates?
What gene mutations led to our intelligence?
Again, where is your proof that evolution caused humans to be intelligent?Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
tail = coccyx - provides the anchor point for our pelvic muscles so that when we laugh or stand or cough our pelvic contents don't prolapse [ or fall out ] ---- indeed a very useful function and benefit.
You will notice that I make no mention of religion. I just point out the facts. :D
So you took a biology course [ singular ] which was "Theory of Evolution."Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
You are mighty impressionable. ;)
Take anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, cell biology, genetics, molecular biology and learn the wonders of life, and ask yourself how it all came about!
Seriously sir (or madame)... READ SOME BOOKS! I have never claimed to be a scientist or a professor, or to have all the answers, but I have read many many books on the subject and tried to educate myself as a layman. If you took the time to do the same, you wouldn't need to ask all these silly questions. I call them silly, because you are only asking them out of personal incredulity. That is YOU--inthebox-- doesn't understand something, so how could it possibly be so?Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
There is much disagreement on how we became bipedal, which I know you'll love to hear, because you'll think it gives you ammunition to assert that evolution must be false, right? Wrong! There is no disagreement over evolution. None... Zilch... Nada... Fully 98% of all biologists accept evolution as F-A-C-T! There are however, gaps in knowledge and things like how we became bipedal, got our intelligence, etc. are not 100% understood. But there are some very good guesses, which you should take it upon yourself to read up on. It's actually very interesting stuff!
This is what I meant. How can you take a biology course and not understand how incremental change works? I'm trying very hard not to stoop to negative comments, but can't help wondering where you took biology. The Discovery Institute?Quote:
What is the selective advantage of incrementlly, over hundreds if not thousands of generations, "getting smarter" bit by bit?
I've answered this already. Not every animal is evolving towards higher intelligence, nor do they need to. Sharks make their living just fine on the level of intelligence they have. Get rid of this notioin that evolution has some predestined goal or purpose in mind, with high intelligence as the end product. It does not. The only purpose is for an organism to pass on its genes. Sharks have been doing this perhaps better than any other living organism for millions of years. (don't quote me on the exact time, but rest assured it's significant).Quote:
If other animal species are so much older than us, for example sharks, why did evolution not make them more intellligent?
I have already suggested bipedality. There can surely be other reasons.Quote:
Why humans?
Primates are perhaps the 2nd or 3rd next intelligent species next to our own.Quote:
Why not even primates?
Edit: Now you've got me sounding like an idiot! WE ARE primates! I was referring to monkeys. /edit
Now you're really getting ridiculous. Just because scientist haven't been able to nail down the exact genetic change in DNA that occurred a couple hundred thousand years ago, that led to increased intelligence... This to you, constitutes sufficient reason to blow the entire theory of evolution out of the water? Please...Quote:
What gene mutations led to our intelligence?
Hmm. We DO still have a tail bone! You think maybe god just forgot to install our tails?Quote:
tail = coccyx - provides the anchor point for our pelvic muscles so that when we laugh or stand or cough our pelvic contents don't prolapse [ or fall out ] ---- indeed a very useful function and benefit.
I almost did. Right until the very end. ;)Quote:
You will notice that I make no mention of religion. I just point out the facts. :D
It was taxonomy. And yes, the prof DID go over ToE!Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
There is no such proof. Evolution does not cause anything. Evolution provides many up- and down-grades of older "models". Most of these variations soon become extinct as they do not support survival of the natural requirements at that time.Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
More intelligence clearly had advantages. As a slow bi-pedal you could for instance better prepare yourself against predator attacks instead of being eaten. You could plan. You got insight and develop a strategy. You learned how to defend yourself.
And the less intelligent one was - living under similar conditions - the more chance of getting your genes taken out of the reproductive cycle... So once on the road to higher intelligence it became a one-way street to the top.
That is how evolution works. Evolution has no direction. But it provides the way to feasible options, in which the best upgrade to adapt to natural requirements wins.
===
Note that the result of that increased average human intelligence (our increasing technology and our changing social tendencies) tends now-a-days to allow this elimination process of the weakest to be stopped - if not reversed.
And with that we see the weak point of evolution : the higher you specialize , the higher the chance that you can or will not upgrade to the natural requirement of changing habitats. You than as species simply go extinct, and nature tries another possibility.
With the consequences of the current global warming this possibility of extinction seems to have arrived for a lot of lifeforms, and humanity as species is not excluded of that...
:rolleyes:
·
You forgot... some folks are still born with full-fledged tails. Not much of one but a tail nonetheless. Guess god remembers some... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by lobroster
You're right on antis using questions on the mechanics to throw doubt on the established science. It's the 'teach the controversy' strategy the ID crowd put together for their 'Wedge Strategy.'
One idea on how our 'smarts' improved was when we started eating meat - specifically bone marrow. It's high in fat and the energy was needed for 'growing' brains. (Tho I suppose that's a bit of an egg/chicken question <G>) And when the climate in Africa changed and forests became savannahs, standing to see over the grass may have led to standing for good.
The point is, we can rarely, if at all, point to one single change that results in a major evolutionary adaptation. Almost all are accumulative. As to why we're smarter, or became bipedal - my opinion is that no one 'cause' will be found. There will be a number of them for every big change.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
Every one of those courses acknowledges evolution as its founding principle. (At least every accredited one.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WVHiflyer
I have taken these, have any of you ?
They are scientific fact based courses
None are based on evolution as a founding principal.
Is electronegativity or gravity or osmosis or the genetic code caused or proven by evolution?
The evolutionists [ lob cred vh1 etc.] cannot answer the questions I pose, so they resort to personal attacks.
That is not scientific. ;)
I'm still waiting for links or peer reviewed journal articles to back up your assertations, otherwise, all you state are just unproven claims based on your faith in evolution and what you were led to believe.
Of course all religious based wild claims do not fall under that category, I presume ?Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
And why do you state "faith in evolution"? I personally accept the scientific data that supports the Evolution Theory for the greater part. What is the percentage of scientific data that supports the creation claim ?
:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :D
·
Exactly what IS your question? Which line in the genetic code had a mutation some 265,367 years and 238 days ago to an apelike animal that caused intelligence to flourish? What? Can't tell me? AHA! Told you evolution was just another dumb faith based belief!Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
You win. :(
No , no , no... Not so wide : only that mutation 265,367 years, 238 days, 13 hours, 18 minutes, and 32 seconds ago , of course !Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
:D
·
Yes, I have taken some of those courses. I also bother to read a lot. And every one uses evolution as a fundamental principle. And there's growing use of evol ideas in the humanities as in why we dance and sing.
Here are 3 links, each with a number of their own. Just how educated are you willing to be, spend time on.. The last has numerous links to specific anti-evo disinfo.
Understanding Evolution
National Center for Science Education
Misquoting Evolution | Rob Lowe
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
Hahahaa.. lol... loll YES YES! :D :D :D :D HOOOOHOOO!! VICTORY!!
PHEW! ***SIGH****Finally (1043 posts later)! Credo has finally admitted he has BELIEFS!. WOW!
Took him long enough but my patience and hard work finally paid off. I never thought I would see the day but I kept hope alive and it was all worth it!
Everybody, Credo has done the unexpected and admitted to having BELIEFS. Hopefully his coming out of the closet will help him stop harassing others about their beliefs. We can only hope, one step at a time.
My work here is done! ;)
All this is based on speculation, not solid evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by WVHiflyer
Another vicotory! WOW today is a good day, first Credo admits he has beliefs and now lobroster admits macro evolution depends on faith. WOW this is too good! :p :DQuote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
... And to think he argued with me for three pages that he can not possibly have any beliefsQuote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
That he accepts things not believe when I tried to get the point across that there is a difference between believe and believe IN
Could not or refused to comprehend that believe can and does mean
1. To accept as true or real: Do you believe the news stories?
2. To credit with veracity: I believe you.
3. To expect or suppose; think: I believe they will arrive shortly.
:confused: :confused: :confused: :eek:
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religi...ml#post1148394
Good work, so glad to see this! :p I wish there was a smiley for 'patting you on the back' .Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
Cred, if this were a grammar debate, or a spelling bee, I would understand your harassment of SassyT with this avoidance factor masquerading in infantile behavior... but if you go back and reread some of your own posts... you make quite a few mistakes too. In fact, whole ‘sentences’ that are in fact not sentences at all, because a sentence is supposed to express a complete thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
However, avoidance is what you best is it not?
So glad to hear you admit you do have beliefs... made my day, fellow.
A belief is faith, conviction, and/or opinion, not related to facts, religious or otherwise.
Therefore, you do have faith in something that is without proof. Why then do you insist that you will not believe it until you see it?:confused:
I am sure that Cred will either reply to your post by correcting your spelling/grammar errors or he will say to get back on topic even after he has been off topic himself...Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
As you said it is his avoidance tactics.
What would you accept as solid evidence?Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
Cred writes: I personally accept the scientific data that supports the Evolution Theory for the greater part.
I personally accept (which mean believes) the scientific data (men suppositioning) that supports the Evolution Theory (premise or guess) for the greater part. I have not a clue…for the greater part of what, the data or the theory.
The fact that it is not 'religious', which I have no idea what your definition of religious is, does not matter at all. If people can make gods of cows then people can make gods of unproven ideas. Indeed, I suppose anything one believes in can be a god can it not?
Cred admits he believes in something neither he nor anyone else has ever proven. Nor ever will, but he's a believer!
Yes, it is. And he does avoid the hard questions by saying the post was too long. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
What a cop out!
Does he really 'believe' he is so clever that people are unaware of his petty tactics?
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:11 PM. |