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  • Jul 14, 2008, 10:05 AM
    achampio21
    I agree with you NeedKarma...

    Plants/grass/veggies/ etc all come from seeds. Those seeds come from their source at some point in it's phase. All of them require soil, water, and sunlight to grow and become what they become. That doesn't show anyone that a God exists unless you BELIEVE that a God put it all here.

    Take a child from the depths of Africa that has never been taught about religion, and ask that child how did that flower get here, you know what that child's response will be?.

    "I don't know" His/Her perception of how it got here is totally up to whoever decides to tell that child how it got here. And that child will BELIEVE whatever he/she is told because he/she will not know otherwise. But to assume that grass is proof of God is not ligit. Because in all truth you can't prove that it was. And you can't prove that God made anything.

    How did you SassyT come to believe in God? Did you just wake up one day and tell yourself I bet God made everything, or where you raised in faith? And if you had NEVER been told about God do you really think you would have any idea at all about their being one?
  • Jul 14, 2008, 10:07 AM
    sassyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by achampio21
    I agree with you NeedKarma...

    Plants/grass/veggies/ etc all come from seeds. Those seeds come from their source at some point in it's phase. All of them require soil, water, and sunlight to grow and become what they become. That doesn't show anyone that a God exists unless you BELIEVE that a God put it all here.

    Where did the seeds come from?
  • Jul 14, 2008, 10:10 AM
    achampio21
    You avoided my question, I will answer yours when you answer mine. Please.


    Okay, I guess that means you aren't going to answer...

    I BELIEVE God started it all. BUT.. those that don't BELIEVE in a god do not and therefore draw their own conclusions as to where the seeds come from.
    If you are a biology major, you tell me where your professor says they come from. Because I KNOW they don't teach religion in school. Our government forbids it.
  • Jul 14, 2008, 03:10 PM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by achampio21
    How did you SassyT come to believe in God?

    Hello Champ!
    As it seems she refuses to answer that question, just let me answer it : most probably she was brainwashed early in life by her parents into believing in God. Yes : brainwashed. Though well intended and not intended to hurt anyone, it still was brainwashing. As you stated yourself : young children will believe anything their parents tell them. Only when children grow older, some of them start questioning what they were told by their parents, make up their own mind, and draw another conclusion.

    Of course sassyT can correct me on the above, if she wants, and tell us all how otherwise she started believing in God. But I suggest it is unwise to hold your breath till that post appears on this board...

    ===

    As to your last post : so you are a Deist ! At least you believe in a deity that used it's time to do something positive by creating the Universe. And followed that up with going on a long, very long holiday, unlike the claimed Christian God who followed that up with a lot of blood, death, rape, pain, and revenge as per the OT .
    Good choice!

    ;)

    ·
  • Jul 15, 2008, 05:34 AM
    De Maria
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    That is a non-answer : why don't you provide clear information on what, where, when? You know you can't , is it not?

    I did.

    Quote:

    Objective supporting evidence from your side has indeed never been forthcoming. Why otherwise are you hiding now behind claims that I lie, which - again - you can not back up? Just quote with what you seem to see as objective supporting evidence . Also please provide info on where and when that was posted.
    I did. Several times.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria
  • Jul 15, 2008, 05:40 AM
    De Maria
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lobrobster
    Well, this is an erroneous conclusion (even though it *might* be right!).

    Huh? How can you seem so sure its erroneous and then say it might be right?

    Quote:

    What you are doing is making an argument from personal incredulity. In other words, just because YOU, De Maria, can't think of any other way for that blade of grass to hold such properties, you are going to plug in your own answer.
    I reviewed the objective evidence and using my subjective reason, came to a conclusion.

    Quote:

    This is NOT how science works!
    Unfortunately, you are correct. It is how science is supposed to work. But frequently, scientists have subjective agendas which they confuse with objective evidence and then their conclusions turn out overly biased.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria
  • Jul 15, 2008, 05:42 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    Unfortunately, you are correct. It is how science is supposed to work. But frequently, scientists have subjective agendas which they confuse with objective evidence and then their conclusions turn out overly biased.

    Ah yes, the worldwide scientific conspiracy rears its ugly head again.
  • Jul 15, 2008, 05:51 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    I did. I did. Several times.

    Please state WHERE and WHEN you did that, so I can check that and react on it.

    So where and when did you post Objective Supporting Evidence for the existence of the Christian God, and that God being the Creator ?

    If you can not or will not specify that, I have to assume you never posted that OSE .

    :rolleyes:

    ·
  • Jul 15, 2008, 05:58 AM
    De Maria
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by achampio21
    I agree with you NeedKarma...

    Plants/grass/veggies/ etc all come from seeds. Those seeds come from their source at some point in it's phase. All of them require soil, water, and sunlight to grow and become what they become. That doesn't show anyone that a God exists unless you BELIEVE that a God put it all here.

    Take into account, your own experience. How did your children get into your womb and why do feel that you should be thankful for them?

    To whom do you feel you should be thankful?

    It's the same process, your reason tells you that someone had to have given them to you. It isn't faith, because, if I understood your witness correctly, you didn't believe in God before. So, if you didn't have faith, you didn't believe in God, yet you came to the realization that someone else existed to whom you should be grateful.

    Quote:

    Take a child from the depths of Africa that has never been taught about religion, and ask that child how did that flower get here, you know what that child's response will be?.

    "I don't know" His/Her perception of how it got here is totally up to whoever decides to tell that child how it got here. And that child will BELIEVE whatever he/she is told because he/she will not know otherwise.
    That only works for the period in which the child is dependent on the parents. My own experience is that I was told there was a God and I believed. Then I made up my own mind that God did not exist. Then one day I realized that I had been wrong. From viewing the evidence of the conception and birth of my children and by looking at the wondrous design of nature, I realized that only a super intelligence many times more powerful and intelligent than human beings could have produced it.

    Quote:

    But to assume that grass is proof of God is not ligit.
    There is a difference between proof and evidence. Proof is a special kind of evidence which is indisputable. Obviously, I have not produced indisputable proof. I have provided the evidence which has led me and many others to conclude that God exists.

    Quote:

    Because in all truth you can't prove that it was. And you can't prove that God made anything.
    Please provide the quotation where I said that I could prove that God made anything.

    In essence, what you have done is created a straw man. You have changed what I said in order that you could win sound as though your argument were superior.

    So all you have to do is provide the quotation where I said I had provided "proof".

    Quote:

    How did you SassyT come to believe in God? Did you just wake up one day and tell yourself I bet God made everything, or where you raised in faith? And if you had NEVER been told about God do you really think you would have any idea at all about their being one?
    Personally, as I've said, I was told God existed. But I came to believe otherwise. Then one day, soon after the conception of my own child, I came to realize that I had nothing to do with that conception except to make whoopie. And how could such a marvelous thing come about without a wonderful intelligence, marvelous in Its own right, to guide the process?

    Sincerely,

    De Maria
  • Jul 15, 2008, 06:03 AM
    De Maria
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    Please state WHERE and WHEN you did that, so I can check that and react on it.

    So where and when did you post Objective Supporting Evidence for the existence of the Christian God, and that God being the Creator ?

    If you can not or will not specify that, I have to assume you never posted that OSE .

    :rolleyes:

    ·

    I did so on this thread. Several times. Just go back and check it.

    At this point, you are obviously avoiding engaging in any real debate because as I've proved, you know nothing about what evidence is for, what objective evidence means, nor how objective and subjective matters relate to each other. In essence, you know nothing about this subject matter.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria
  • Jul 15, 2008, 06:04 AM
    De Maria
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma
    Ah yes, the worldwide scientific conspiracy rears its ugly head again.

    Did I say it was a conspiracy? Who did so? When?

    You might want to start reading what people actually say, rather than reading into their statements what you want them to say. Maybe then you'd have something to contribute.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria
  • Jul 15, 2008, 06:11 AM
    NeedKarma
    I quote your text in my reply, you must have missed it. Y'know, the part about scientists having agendas.
    You sound like a mad fella. Calm down a little. Ask Jesus for some soothing help.
  • Jul 15, 2008, 06:13 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    How did your children get into your womb...

    You really want someone to explain you the complete impregnation process?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    ... and why do feel that you should be thankful for them?

    She may have had a good time during that process, and the result may have been overwhelming positive.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    To whom do you feel you should be thankful?

    Her husband or partner ?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    I have provided the evidence which has led me and many others to conclude that God exists.

    Conclude ? That is called Subjective Supported Evidence... Not Objective Supported Evidence

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    ... And how could such a marvelous thing come about without a wonderful intelligence, marvelous in Its own right, to guide the process?

    Why not? It seems to me that all plants and all life forms can do without that intervention. So why would humanity be the only exception to that ?
    And why would that "intelligence" be required at all ? (Of course you may always BELIEVE that ! )

    :rolleyes:

    ·
  • Jul 15, 2008, 08:05 AM
    sassyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    Hello Champ!
    As it seems she refuses to answer that question, just let me answer it : most probably she was brainwashed early in life by her parents into believing in God. Yes : brainwashed. Though well intended and not intended to hurt anyone, it still was brainwashing. As you stated yourself : young children will believe anything their parents tell them. Only when children grow older, some of them start questioning what they were told by their parents, make up their own mind, and draw another conclusion

    Lol... yeah brainwashed like how you have been brainwashed into believing a Big bang is what created universe and that a mythical one cell creature is you ancestor.. . :rolleyes:

    Quote:

    Of course sassyT can correct me on the above, if she wants, and tell us all how otherwise she started believing in God. But I suggest it is unwise to hold your breath till that post appears on this board...
    Lol Don't hold your breath (as old as you are.. you might pass out... kidding :)) because I am just going to leave you with your BELIEFS on how I came to believe in God. I know telling you won't change your beliefs anyway because, as we have all observed, you seem to struggle with reality. :rolleyes:
  • Jul 15, 2008, 05:51 PM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sassyT
    ...brainwashed like how you have been brainwashed into believing a Big bang is what created universe and that a mythical one cell creature is you ancestor.

    Be glad I am around here, sassyT, as I seem to cause you lot's of lol and other pleasures. I hope it feels for you just as good as it does to me ! :D

    Once more : I do not BELIEVE in the Big Bang, nor in Evolution. I never stated that, and have been telling you ever since you started posting that "steer waste". That you never-the-less keep restating that confirms my opinion of you...

    I accept the scientific support for both theories, as they are properly supported, though not for the full 100%. But than : no religious claims have more than ZERO percent scientific support, so both theories seem to be superior on OSE to religious claims !

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sassyT
    i am just going to leave you with your BELIEFS on how i came to believe in God.

    I am not really interested in what and why you believe anyway. What you BELIEVE is up to you. It has no bearing on anyone else.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sassyT
    ... you seem to struggle with reality.

    Not correct. I have a perfect sense of what is reality and what is not. Something you seem to miss entirely. Even when we discuss obtained degrees!!

    :D :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

    ·
  • Jul 15, 2008, 07:50 PM
    WVHiflyer
    [QUOTE=inthebox... What is NOT science is trying to fit the complexity of a single cell into the theory of evolution."[/QUOTE]

    That's EXACTLY what science is. Trying to find out how the natural world works.


    [QUOTE=intheboxThat is not scientific though many scientists and evolutionists believe it is the best theory out there."[/QUOTE]

    Wrong. MOST scientists don't believe it's the best explanation, they KNOW it.
  • Jul 15, 2008, 08:19 PM
    WVHiflyer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sassyT
    WVH please dont just make empty claims. If you believe evolution is truth.. good for you but the reality is there is no evidence macro evolution. Micro evolution is an irrefutable fact and Darwinists like yourself think you can use evidence for Micro evolution as evidence for Macro. No, sorry it doesnt work that way. If you want to convince me that The theory of Macro evolution is truth then please provide irrefutable evidence that a once cell creature known as an ameoba is the ancestor of all living things, flowers, birds, pigs humans etc. I would also like to see irrefutable evidence that a warm promodial soup existed of which this mythical one cell creature crawled out of. I would also like you to prove that random mutations can create "new" information in DNA.

    P.S
    Plse do not just copy and past some blurb to got online like you have been doing.


    Since I'm not the one who has done the science, I can only direct you to info where descriptions of the science (proof) can be found. I'm just trying to fill in the gaps in your supposed 'science' education. But you apparently refuse to actually read the scientific reports on the evidence. Whales, for instance, are clearly shown in the fossil record to have evolved. There are clear 'steps' in changes between land and water habitation, how the nasal passages changed, etc. This could easily be found in any library (except, I guess, at that school you attend which you keep secret).

    I also gave you evidence of "'new' information in DNA" being given since bacteria do it all the time. Read that post again. Or does science actually bore you and so prevent you from finishing even a post here (much less a whole article or even the book I suggested).



    It isn't faith that makes good science Mr. Clatu, it's curiosity. --The Day the Earth Stood Still
  • Jul 15, 2008, 08:29 PM
    WVHiflyer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sassyT
    lolDont hold your breath (as old as you are..you might pass out...kidding :)) because i am just going to leave you with your BELIEFS on how i came to believe in God. I know telling you wont change your beliefs anyway because, as we have all observed, you seem to struggle with reality. :rolleyes:




    Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense.
    --Voltaire, 1764


    Irrationally held truths may be more harmful than reasoned errors. --Thomas Huxley



    -
  • Jul 16, 2008, 10:03 AM
    achampio21
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    Take into account, your own experience. How did your children get into your womb and why do feel that you should be thankful for them?

    To whom do you feel you should be thankful?

    1.) Its the same process, your reason tells you that someone had to have given them to you. It isn't faith, because, if I understood your witness correctly, you didn't believe in God before. So, if you didn't have faith, you didn't believe in God, yet you came to the realization that someone else existed to whom you should be grateful.



    2.) That only works for the period in which the child is dependent on the parents. My own experience is that I was told there was a God and I believed. Then I made up my own mind that God did not exist. Then one day I realized that I had been wrong. From viewing the evidence of the conception and birth of my children and by looking at the wondrous design of nature, I realized that only a super intelligence many times more powerful and intelligent than human beings could have produced it.



    3.) There is a difference between proof and evidence. Proof is a special kind of evidence which is indisputable. Obviously, I have not produced indisputable proof. I have provided the evidence which has led me and many others to conclude that God exists.



    4.) Please provide the quotation where I said that I could prove that God made anything.

    5.) In essence, what you have done is created a straw man. You have changed what I said in order that you could win sound as though your argument were superior.

    6.) So all you have to do is provide the quotation where I said I had provided "proof".



    7.) Personally, as I've said, I was told God existed. But I came to believe otherwise. Then one day, soon after the conception of my own child, I came to realize that I had nothing to do with that conception except to make whoopie. And how could such a marvelous thing come about without a wonderful intelligence, marvelous in Its own right, to guide the process?

    Sincerely,

    De Maria

    Okay, I am thouroghly confused. Either you and SassyT are the same person or you are answering her questions for her. But either way it goes...

    1.) My children got into my womb by the "fact" that I produced an egg and my husbands sperm fertilized it and then the embryo's grew into babies and then boom I gave birth. But, yes I believe God gave me and my husband that power. Or at least gave the first man and woman on earth that power and it was passed on to him and I. But non-believers do not believe that.


    2.) I was using the same analogy that SassyT used earlier in this thread. I figured she would see both of my points.

    3.) I was merely referring "you" to anyone not a specific person. And that was a general statement.

    4.) Never said YOU specifically said anything.

    5.)?? :confused:?? Besides, I'm allergic to straw.

    6.) Never said YOU specifically said anything.

    7.) Some people don't believe that anything gave them that power. That's their choice.

    And just for the record. I went to church every Sunday and both major holiday's my WHOLE life. I was moved around A LOT because my wonderful daddy didn't want to pay child support to his 2 ex-wives for the 5 other kids before me that he made (or I guess God made, so why would he pay support?? Anyway) and I went to just about every type of church you can name. Baptist, Southern babtist, Methodist, Pentecostal, Presbytarian, etc.. So I was exposed to many, many types of religion. I chose on my own which to believe in and which not too. I sat in church pew after church pew right in between my birth mother and birth father and listened to them lie straight faced to many many preachers and I was sick. I listened to many many preachers ask for money at the beginning of service and again at the end of service and then watched that same preacher drive off in a Mercades or Lexus to his $200,000 house. While I left with satan and her husband in our primered chevy S10 to our $80,000 house to eat ramen noodles for dinner.

    I went a VERY LONG time questioning God and angry about all of the horrible things that happened to me in my life. I couldn't understand what I had done to deserve all of the crap that had happened to me. I shouldn't have to blame myself for sins I really don't know that I committed to explain the bad things in my life. And I couldn't believe that a God as all powerful and all-knowing as the Christian God would let all of the horrible things that are happening happen simply because some people don't believe in Him.

    BUT>>> I have quit questioning. Because wondering why was driving me freakin crazy. I just live day to day and recognize that if I believe in a God that makes this life actually worth living. Because if I didn't believe that I will get to walk on streets of gold, never be hungry and walk around naked and happy as a jaybird this life would surely make me do REALLY bad things. Because I can't imagine thinking everyday that when I die that's it. If that is the case then what happens here on earth doesn't ultimately matter. And your choices only decide what happens here. If you do bad things and get caught, you go to jail. If you don't mind jail then the sky is the limit for you. So in all truth and honesty, I believe in God for my own sanity and for other people's safety :p. Because if I didn't, I would have surely snapped a long time ago and done things that wouldn't have been good.
  • Jul 16, 2008, 10:07 AM
    achampio21
    WVHiflyer~

    I really like your proverb in your signature. It is very fitting and makes a lot of sense.

    Besides I relate to "ain't" more than you could possibly know :D :p :D





    I have a quote to add though...



    "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
    -- Galileo Galilei
  • Jul 16, 2008, 10:30 AM
    sassyT
    [QUOTE]
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by WVHiflyer
    Since I'm not the one who has done the science, I can only direct you to info where descriptions of the science (proof) can be found. I'm just trying to fill in the gaps in your supposed 'science' education. But you apparently refuse to actually read the scientific reports on the evidence.

    I read the so called evidence however I am able to scientifically refute it.



    Quote:

    Whales, for instance, are clearly shown in the fossil record to have evolved. There are clear 'steps' in changes between land and water habitation, how the nasal passages changed, etc. This could easily be found in any library (except, I guess, at that school you attend which you keep secret).
    Please show me a sequense of fossils of a whale evolving into a land animal. I would love to see this fossil evidence.. so would the world.

    Quote:

    I also gave you evidence of "'new' information in DNA" being given since bacteria do it all the time. Read that post again. Or does science actually bore you and so prevent you from finishing even a post here (much less a whole article or even the book I suggested).
    Micro evolution is an observable FACT, I have never denied that. Changes WITHIN Species have been observed, however darwinists take the leap of faith that these small changes within species will create an entirely new, never seen before species. Bacteria do evolve and develop new traits to adapt to new environments, however they don't evolve and ceased to be a bacteria and evolved into say, a virus. The bacteria is still bacteria.

    The Bacteria example is a perfect example of MICRO evolution this not "new" information it is specialisation within the bacteria.
    Let me explain. We see organisms become more specialized as they adapt to their environment, or when speciation occurs. Sometimes these changes might even be beneficial despite being an overall loss of information. For example, beetles on a windy island will sometimes lose their wings due to a degenarative mutation. This mutation is actually beneficial in this circumstance because the beetles aren’t able to fly and be blown off into the ocean. But even though this mutation is beneficial, it still resulted in a net loss of information, which says nothing for Macro evo. Scientists have seen bacteria become antibiotic resistant. They have seen bacteria become bigger from mutations. But have they ever seen bacteria become anything other than bacteria? NO
    In fact, with over a hundred years of work with Ecoli behind us, (at 20 minutes per generation time, that's over 2 1/5 MILLION generations of ecoli minimum that have been witnessed you do the math), and despite forcing or encouraging mutations, they still cannot get anything but E.coli.

    Bottom line, no matter what traits your example of bacteria has developed, it is STILL BACTERIA 2 1/5 million (per 20min) generations later. So please stop trying to pass of evidence of micro as evidence for macro evolution. If you are going to show me a bacterium that evolved, show me one that evolved and changed not a virus, a fungus or heck, even a bird ;)
  • Jul 16, 2008, 10:37 AM
    achampio21
    I found this just cruising around the net today and I couldn't believe how wildly close to home it was. I thought this would add some lighter fluid to our fire. I apologize Credo for going off subject with this, but I think it is relative in a different kind of way. ;)

    And I thought NeedKarma would get a nice kick out of this quote also. :p


    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
    - Sir Stephen Henry Roberts (1901-1971)
  • Jul 16, 2008, 10:51 AM
    lobrobster
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    Huh? How can you seem so sure its erroneous and then say it might be right?

    Because whether it is right or wrong, the *logic* you are using to derive an answer is erroneous. If I used wolf howling to tell me whether it's going to rain tomorrow, I might get it right. But the method I used is still wrong. C'mon De Maria. I know you're logic must be better than this!

    Quote:

    But frequently, scientists have subjective agendas which they confuse with objective evidence and then their conclusions turn out overly biased.

    I've been through this too many times before on these forums. If you REALLY want to believe that 98% of all scientists are in kahootz to pull the wool over our eyes with respect to evolution and the age of the earth to further some agenda, there is certainly nothing I can say to convince you otherwise. I would just ask you to consider that the majority of people are those with faith. So if they want funding, wouldn't it make sense to appease them and not us minority atheists?
  • Jul 16, 2008, 12:16 PM
    sassyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lobrobster
    Because whether it is right or wrong, the *logic* you are using to derive an answer is erroneous. If I used wolf howling to tell me whether it's going to rain tomorrow, I might get it right. But the method I used is still wrong. C'mon De Maria. I know you're logic must be better than this!




    I've been through this too many times before on these forums. If you REALLY want to believe that 98% of all scientists are in kahootz to pull the wool over our eyes with respect to evolution and the age of the earth to further some agenda, there is certainly nothing I can say to convince you otherwise. I would just ask you to consider that the majority of people are those with faith. So if they want funding, wouldn't it make sense to appease them and not us minority atheists?

    They may not have an agenda but they definitely have FAITH.
  • Jul 16, 2008, 12:24 PM
    achampio21
    HEY SASSYT


    Does your professor at your college, where you are studying a masters in Biology, teach that seeds and everything else came from God?

    Because if he/she doesn't you are paying an awful lot of money to someone that "obviously doesn't know what they are talking about".
  • Jul 16, 2008, 03:09 PM
    lobrobster
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sassyT
    they may not have an agenda but they definately have FAITH.

    It is only FAITH if you are using no evidence. The evidence for evolution and the age of the earth are overwhelming. You just choose not to accept it for whatever reason. And yeah, why haven't I asked you this before...

    Why do you choose not to accept it? Exactly why do you think all these scientists are wrong? In other words, people who devote their entire lives to geology and make their living from dating things have no problem accepting the evidence of how old the earth is. But you, SassyT, do not. Don't you think that's weird?
  • Jul 17, 2008, 12:01 AM
    WVHiflyer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sassyT
    You [B
    BELIEVE[/B] there is no God ---- But you can not prove that to be factual
    You BELIEVE a big bang created the universe --- i am yet to see conclusive evidence
    You BELIEVE we evolved from a one cell creature--- fossil evidence denies this
    You BELIEVE there is no life after death---- you have zero evidence of this
    You BELIEVE the universe is 14.3 billion years old ---- but you ignore the assuptions used
    You BELIEVE Secular Humanism is not a religion ---- and yet it has the same tax exept status as religious organisations.

    You BELIEVE there is a God ---- But you can not prove that to be factual
    (While I'm just as sure there are no gods)
    You don't BELIEVE a big bang created the universe --- and no amount of evidence will convince you as long as you remain anti-scientific
    You do not BELIEVE we evolved from a one cell creature and that 'even the fossil evidence denies this' --- though it's improbable such fossil evidence of that would be found, science doesn't need fossils to prove everything
    You BELIEVE there is life after death---- you have zero evidence of this
    You don't BELIEVE the universe is 14.3 billion years old ---- but you ignore the assuptions that your faith demands you use
    You BELIEVE Secular Humanism is a religion ---- and yet it has the same tax except status as religious organisations<sic> along with the Red Cross, Big Brothers, United Way, etc. - all non-relig

    Are you so insecure in you own faith that you have a compulsion to see 'belief' in all opinions or conclusions?



    -It vexes me when they would constrain science by the authority of the Scriptures, and yet do not consider themselves bound to answer reason and experiment. --Galileo Galilei; The Authority of Scripture in Philosophical Controversies (condemned by the Inquisition)
  • Jul 17, 2008, 12:16 AM
    WVHiflyer
    Achamp, I like that Galileo quote. Before I read it, I'd added a similar one to a post (one prev to this)

    Glad you like my hillbilly wisdom.

    -
  • Jul 17, 2008, 12:35 AM
    WVHiflyer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sassyT
    Quote:

    I read the so called evidence however I am able to scientifically refute it.
    You haven't used science to either refute or support anything.


    Quote:

    Please show me a sequense of fossils of a whale evolving into a land animal. I would love to see this fossil evidence.. so would the world.
    Your scientific ignorance is showing again. I said the fossil evidence clearly shows the progression of whales, not the reverse.


    Micro evolution is an observable FACT, I have never denied that. Changes WITHIN Species have been observed, however darwinists take the leap of faith that these small changes within species will create an entirely new, never seen before species. Bacteria do evolve and develop new traits to adapt to new environments, however they don't evolve and ceased to be a bacteria and evolved into say, a virus. The bacteria is still bacteria.

    The Bacteria example is a perfect example of MICRO evolution this not "new" information it is specialisation within the bacteria.
    Let me explain. We see organisms become more specialized as they adapt to their environment, or when speciation occurs. Sometimes these changes might even be beneficial despite being an overall loss of information. For example, beetles on a windy island will sometimes lose their wings due to a degenarative mutation. This mutation is actually beneficial in this circumstance because the beetles aren’t able to fly and be blown off into the ocean. But even though this mutation is beneficial, it still resulted in a net loss of information, which says nothing for Macro evo.
    Scientists have seen bacteria become antibiotic resistant. They have seen bacteria become bigger from mutations. But have they ever seen bacteria become anything other than bacteria? In fact, with over a hundred years of work with Ecoli behind us, (at 20 minutes per generation time, that's over 2 1/5 MILLION generations of ecoli minimum that have been witnessed you do the math), and despite forcing or encouraging mutations, they still cannot get anything but E.coli.

    Again you show you do not understand how evolution works. There is no direction. A 'loss' of info could be as beneficial as a 'gain' and either could eventually result in speciation. The missing ingredient is time, lots of it. No one was trying to get e-coli to 'evolve' but were trying to get them to adopt ne characteristics for specific uses. That would be artificial selection, not natural.



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  • Jul 17, 2008, 09:01 AM
    asking
    These definitions of loss and gain of information seem pretty flexible. I think to have a good discussion, you need to define these terms more strictly. Until then:

    I have been traveling for most of the last month, so am not up on this discussion. Sassy, did you ever respond to my example of dogs speciating? I read that beagles and golden retrievers (I think) are now reproductively isolated. They are morphologically distinct and (also) they cannot produce fertile puppies together. By definition they are separate species. This seems to show that it's not true that humans have never produced new species.

    Furthermore, I don't even think you need such a great example. It's obvious that if chihuahuas and great danes were found in the wild, they would be considered different species. And many species that are less different and CAN interbreed--such as lions and tigers--are considered separate species. These two kinds of big cats clearly function differently in the wild--behaving differently, catching different prey, living in different environments. Chihuauas and great danes, both descended from wolves, would certainly fill different ecological niches if they lived in the wild, just as lions and tigers do and just as wild dogs and coyotes do.

    Sassy, do you agree that dogs are descended from wolves, as all the genetics shows?
    What do you think of the beagle/retriever example of speciation? Do you accept the "biological species concept" definition of species, which says that a species is a population of organisms that can breed with its own kind but not with others? If so, that makes beagles and retrievers separate species. If not, how would you define a species?
  • Jul 17, 2008, 09:03 AM
    sassyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by achampio21
    HEY SASSYT


    Does your professor at your college, where you are studying a masters in Biology, teach that seeds and everything else came from God?

    Because if he/she doesn't you are paying an awful lot of money to someone that "obviously doesn't know what they are talking about".


    No, however one of my science teachers who is also a Darwinist tries to tell me that I share a common ancestor with a seed. He tells me this mythical ancestor was a little one cell creature who crawled out of warm soup and miraculously morphed into all the biological diversity we see today. So apparently according to this Dawinists teacher of mine, the seed is one of my distant cousins. :p

    I think he is getting paid too much money because I am interested in learning Biology not myths about ameobas and little warm ponds.
  • Jul 17, 2008, 09:05 AM
    N0help4u
    Yeah the one cell morphing into us is what I would love Cred to explain but he keeps dodging the ?
  • Jul 17, 2008, 09:12 AM
    sassyT
    [QUOTE]
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lobrobster
    It is only FAITH if you are using no evidence. The evidence for evolution and the age of the earth are overwhelming. You just choose not to accept it for whatever reason. And yeah, why haven't I asked you this before...

    The evidence for micro evolution is overwhelming however the evidence for Macro evolution is non existant. So it takes a leap of faith to assume the changes that occur within species, over billions of years, will produce a totally different never seen before animal. That has never been observed.


    Quote:

    Why do you choose not to accept it? Exactly why do you think all these scientists are wrong? In other words, people who devote their entire lives to geology and make their living from dating things have no problem accepting the evidence of how old the earth is. But you, SassyT, do not. Don't you think that's weird?
    Again I did not say they are wrong I just said I don't share the same Faith they do in the unproven assuptions made as a basis of the theory.
  • Jul 17, 2008, 09:41 AM
    sassyT
    [QUOTE]
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by WVHiflyer
    You BELIEVE there is a God ---- But you can not prove that to be factual

    Unlike you I don't claim unproven beliefs to be facts.

    Quote:

    (While I'm just as sure there are no gods)
    You don't BELIEVE a big bang created the universe --- and no amount of evidence will convince you as long as you remain anti-scientific
    You do not BELIEVE we evolved from a one cell creature and that 'even the fossil evidence denies this' --- though it's improbable such fossil evidence of that would be found, science doesn't need fossils to prove everything
    You BELIEVE there is life after death---- you have zero evidence of this
    You don't BELIEVE the universe is 14.3 billion years old ---- but you ignore the assuptions that your faith demands you use
    You BELIEVE Secular Humanism is a religion ---- and yet it has the same tax except status as religious organisations<sic> along with the Red Cross, Big Brothers, United Way, etc. - all non-relig
    Yes, you are right I don't believe in the above because I have not seen conclusive evidence for any of it.



    Quote:

    Are you so insecure in you own faith that you have a compulsion to see 'belief' in all opinions or conclusions?
    I am not the one who is insecure about my faith. I am not the one who is claiming to be an atheist and yet spend half my life on religious forum.
    All opinions and conclusions that do not have 100% factual irrefutable evidence to back them up, are BELIEFS. Sorry :)
  • Jul 17, 2008, 09:54 AM
    NeedKarma
    This is going around in circles. They should close this question.
  • Jul 17, 2008, 11:12 AM
    sassyT
    [QUOTE]
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by asking
    These definitions of loss and gain of information seem pretty flexible. I think to have a good discussion, you need to define these terms more strictly. Until then:

    I have been traveling for most of the last month, so am not up on this discussion. Sassy, did you ever respond to my example of dogs speciating? I read that beagles and golden retrievers (I think) are now reproductively isolated. They are morphologically distinct and (also) they cannot produce fertile puppies together. By definition they are separate species. This seems to show that it's not true that humans have never produced new species.

    What you have described in your post is micro evolution within the same KIND/genus.
    Barriers to reproduction do arise among varieties of species that once interbred. However that does in anyway prove macro evolution nor does that make it reasonable to extrapolate from such processes to real evolutionary changes from one kind to others.

    The fact is the dog, wolf etc are still the same genus. According to the Genesis model of origins, God created not each individual species, but the wider genus to which each species belongs.
    For example, the scientific name for the domesticiated dog is Canis familiaris. Canis is the genus, while familiaris is the species. Canis is Latin for "dog," referring to the wider dog "kind," while familiaris refers to the familiar, domesticated dog as an individual species. Canis incompasses wolves and coyotes, Canis lupus is the wolf (lupus being Latin for "wolf"), while Canis ladrans is the coyote.
    So I have no quams believing animals of different species such as the wolf, coyote, and fox all may have shared a common canine ancestor (microevolution), but the line gets drawn when evolutionists insist that these species also share a common ancestor with dolphins, fruit flies and palm tress. :rolleyes: (macroevolution). There is no evidence for macro evolution where animals evolve to a totally different genus.
  • Jul 17, 2008, 12:16 PM
    asking
    So, S, you are saying that God created genera such as Canis (including C. familiaris-dog-, C. lupus-wolf- and C. latrans)-coyote), but not the individual species? And then the individual species evolved on their own through what you are calling microevolution?

    Is that correct?
  • Jul 17, 2008, 02:44 PM
    sassyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by asking
    So, S, you are saying that God created genera such as Canis (including C. familiaris-dog-, C. lupus-wolf- and C. latrans)-coyote), but not the individual species? And then the individual species evolved on their own through what you are calling microevolution?

    Is that correct?

    Correct... there is overwhelming irrefutable evidence of micro evolution, that is animals of different species such as the wolf, coyote, and fox all sharing a common canine ancestor (microevolution). However there is NO evidence that as Darwinists insist that these species also share a common ancestor with dolphins, flowers, butterflies and palm trees.
    Genesis thus indicates that God created each genus, not each individual species. Within each genus He provided a blueprint for diversity, enabling each genus to split, over time (not billions of years), into numerous species i.e speciation.

    So darwinist tend to make the mistake of using evidence for micro evolution as evidence for MACRO.
  • Jul 17, 2008, 06:45 PM
    WVHiflyer
    Quote:

    asking> Do you accept the "biological species concept" definition of species, which says that a species is a population of organisms that can breed with its own kind but not with others? If so, that makes beagles and retrievers separate species. If not, how would you define a species?
    I hate to give Sassy anything she thinks of as ammunition, but there's a big debate now on the definition of a species. While most still generally accept the def you gave, there are other defs. The example of ligers and tilons you gave is one reason why. And if the info on beagles and golden rets is right, that's another.

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  • Jul 17, 2008, 06:47 PM
    WVHiflyer
    Quote:

    Sassy> Unlike you I don't claim unproven beliefs to be facts.
    But you do. You claim there is an intelligent designer responsible for all. Your belief in that is expressed as a fact - you determination in believing that supernatural claim shows you to believe it a fact. My acceptance of evolution is as much a fact as that that says the Earth orbits the Sun. What I study to learn about are all the theories by which evolution happens.

    And you cannot 'learn biology' without a proper understanding of evolution. You don't have to accept it, just understand it. You do not as yet because of your religious blinders.


    Quote:

    Sassy> however there is NO evidence that as Darwinists insist that these species also share a common ancestor with dolphins, flowers, butterflies and palm trees.
    Except that the evidence is there and there's an overwhelming amount of it. And it increases every day. You just refuse to accept it.

    And 'acceptance' is not the same as 'belief.'

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