Not at all. It is simply reading what scripture says. The words mean what they mean. We cannot ignore them because we don't like what they say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
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Not at all. It is simply reading what scripture says. The words mean what they mean. We cannot ignore them because we don't like what they say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Right - GOD was speaking to them. The fact that Jesus had to be transfigured into His glory as God before speaking to them ought to be one indicator. Do you note that the men who were there did not speak to the dead, but only to jesus?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Or put our own spin on them to make them say what we want them to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Jesus "HAD" to be transfigured? This looks an awful lot like spin. Nowhere does it say that Jesus "had to be" transfigured in order to speak to the dead. Moreover, it was a human being, Jesus (he whom we are to imitate) who stood speaking to two dead men. Jesus did not cease to be human on Mt. Tabor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
The NIV interprets it this way:Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Isaiah 8:19 (New International Version)
19 When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?
The term is interpreted the same way elsewhere:
Leviticus 19:31 (KJV)
Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:31 (New International Version)
31 " 'Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.
That is in line with the New Testament which also says:
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Note that the term "spirit" is equated with "false prophet".
Well, I have given specific scriptural backup, as well as external experts, lexicons, etc.. You have told me that this this is your opinion that what I have posted is wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
So, it is your opinion that I am wrong. You have provided no validation for your opinion.
Well, I am prepared to accept the word of scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
Well, Akoue, it seems to me that it is you that is into spin. I am arguing based upon what scripture DOES says. You are trying to argue based upon what scripture DOES NOT say.Quote:
Nowhere does it say that Jesus "had to be" transfigured in order to speak to the dead.
And that word is?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
You, not Scripture, said He had to be.Quote:
Well, Akoue, it seems to me that it is you that is into spin. I am arguing based upon what scripture DOES says. You are trying to argue based upon what scripture DOES NOT say.
Actually it says that they were speaking with Him:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Matthew 17:3
And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
In other words, this was a two way communication.
But the point is that they were alive and speaking. Moses, whom you call dead in the flesh is very much alive in the spirit and Elias who was taken up body and soul is also very much alive, were both there speaking with Jesus.Quote:
while transfigured into His glory as God, not as man. Now, unless you are claiming to be God, this does not apply to you.
I would say that Samuel, a faithful prophet of God, is saved. Saul used a witch to conjure the dead Samuel.Quote:
As for Saul, you are merely labeling it - I could show you many sources which label speaking to the dead as witchcraft also - without any reservation as to whether the person is or is not saved.
We don't. We simply pray and let them hear our prayer. Because they surround us and can hear us. Otherwise they would not be called a cloud of witnesses:
Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
This recalls the episode in the Old Testament:
2 Kings 6: 16And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them. 17And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
We are always surrounded by the Saints in Christ.
You would be obeying the Gospel:Quote:
If I went out to witness to a witch,
James 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
It certainly isn't in accord with the Scriptures:Quote:
or if I had a witch pass on a message for me to someone else, is that a sin because of what she is? No, it is what she is doing that makes it witchcraft.
Deuteronomy 18:10-12 (King James Version)
10There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
I don't think God wants us to be so familiar with witches that we would trust them with anything. Just my opinion.
We don't "call up" the dead.Quote:
So what was she doing? Calling up the dead, and I might add, a person who was dead in the flesh but saved.
We acknowledge what God has revealed. And God has revealed that the Saints in Christ are alive and aware of what happens on earth. They witness our actions, thus they see and hear us. And since Scripture says that we are to pray for each other, we ask them to pray for us in accordance with the Will of God.
Quite different. I don't associate with witches. Therefore if a witch were to call me at home, she would be disturbing me.Quote:
So if you definition of "alive" holds, it would be no different than if a witch used a telephone to call you at home.
1 Samuel 28
15And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?
Have you read it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Okay - so your position is that Jesus transfigured to His glory as God just to put on a show before He spoke to those who had died? I personally have not understood Jesus to be someone who came to earth to entertain us.Quote:
You, not Scripture, said He had to be.
I understand.
With JESUS in His glorified state as God - right. Not with the others.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
With JESUS in His glorified state as God - right. Not with the others.Quote:
But the point is that they were alive and speaking. Moses, whom you call dead in the flesh is very much alive in the spirit and Elias who was taken up body and soul is also very much alive, were both there speaking with Jesus.
Nothing that he did would have been a sin if Samuel were alive in the flesh.Quote:
I would say that Samuel, a faithful prophet of God, is saved. Saul used a witch to conjure the dead Samuel.
Huh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
No, your position is that Jesus had to be transfigured.
What about the talking with, not to, Moses and Elias?
So, why don't you tell us what YOUR OPINION is with respect to the significance of Jesus speaking "to not with" Moses and Elijah?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Why don't you tell us what YOUR OPINION is regarding why Jesus transfigured into His glorified state as God? Why did He not speak to them as a man in the flesh?
Yes. I don't think you are getting the idea here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
The episode at the Mount of Tabor shows that they speak to Jesus.
The following shows that they are aware of us:
Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Since they are aware of us. Can see us and hear us. We ask them to pray to God for us.
This is in accord with the Will of God. God says that we must imitate Jesus. Jesus is interceding with God for us. Thus, the Saints in heaven must be interceding to God for us because they are certainly proven to be imitators of Christ. Otherwise they wouldn't be there.
How about answering my question instead of playing Socrates?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
What question?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Yes, they did, they spoke to Jesus while He was transfigured into His glorified state as God.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Whether they are aware of us or not is not the question (though this verse does not state that they are aware), but rather whether we are to be communicating with those who are dead in the flesh.Quote:
The following shows that they are aware of us:
Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
#232Quote:
Originally Posted by tj3
#231Quote:
Originally Posted by wondergirl
Now how about answering my question?
So, why don't you tell us what YOUR OPINION is with respect to the significance of Jesus speaking "with not to" Moses and Elijah?
Why don't you tell us what YOUR OPINION is regarding why Jesus transfigured into His glorified state as God? Why did He not speak to them as a man in the flesh?
That's horrible! Jesus talked with a dead-in-the-flesh saint!! What an example to all Christians!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
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