Knowing the words in a book means little if you don't do it with understanding and look at the theme of its works. And of course the bible is not one book but a collection of writings wrote to various groups of people for various reasons, But as in all of your issues, they all do work together to give one truth, and there is little issues in the bible except for those without the faith to understand the real meanings of things, and not taking some veres out of context.

Only a person of faith can be a bible scholar,

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Knowing the words in a book means little if you don't do it with understanding and look at the theme of its works.

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You mean : "I can not argue the contradiction list Cred posted (on request of Unknown008) ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

And of course the bible is not one book but a collection of writings wrote to varous groups of people for various reasons

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Everyone knows that. That is not very relevant !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Only a person of faith can be a bible scholar

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Agreed for almost all Bible students. And I can use my time better than by studying the content of that book.
Why tsila1777 seems to feel that necessary for me as Secular Humanist to do is beyond me.
Although I respect anybodies right to believe whatever suits him/her, I do not have to take the doctrine itself as valid.

It is just a pity that from her approach it seems that she refuses to discuss her own topic header text itself : "did Jesus die for the ungodly"? Why does it suggest only ungodly?

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Fine with me, just doubt whatever you want !


I don't. That's why I put these words between marks. I do not judge. But I know what is good and what is bad. For instance that constant aggression in your posts to me : that shows you a bad (as in "poor") Christian. You do not "spread the word", you show your hurt ego !


Why ridiculous? That list shows that there are a lot of contradictions in the Bible. How could a perfect deity have any contradictions (imperfections) in his instruction manual for humanity?


You sound like a Muslim who can quote from the Qur'an by head. Where is in the Bible the instruction to do similar?
I have read many thoudsands of books. Do you expect me to know the entire content of all these too, line by line, word by word? Why should I? For me the Bible is just a book. Nothing more, just a book full of faults, mistakes, unsupported claims, and lots of contradictions ! It seems to me that your "logic" lacks any validity !!!

Who are you talking to here?

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If you make quotations, please do that correctly. The way you do now is very unclear. If you need instructions how to do, just ask !

And here?

:rolleyes:

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statement of faith....I believe Christ died for the ungodly....

Question:

If someone does not believe in salvation, that does not make it untrue. Just as believing in salvation does not make it true. And if neither can be proven then how is one to decide what to believe?


Any comments?

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Originally Posted by tsila1777

Any comments?

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As most of the times is the case with your posts : YES, lot's of them!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tsila1777

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

--Fine with me, just doubt whatever you want !
--I don't. That's why I put these words between marks.
--Why ridiculous? That list shows that there are a lot of contradictions in the Bible.
--You sound like a Muslim who can quote from the Qur'an by head.
--I have read many thoudsands of books. For me the Bible is just a book. Nothing more...

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Who are you talking to here?

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I clearly reacted to your posts #218 and #219. Posts that included quotations from my hand.
Did you forget that perhaps already?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tsila1777

Question: If someone does not believe in salvation, that does not make it untrue. Just as believing in salvation does not make it true. And if neither can be proven then how is one to decide what to believe?Any comments?

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Your subconcious indicates what is acceptable to your upper brain's logical thinking.
Influencing that subconcious is a slow and difficult process.

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Originally Posted by tsila1777

statement of faith....I believe Christ died for the ungodly....

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No problem that you BELIEVE that. But the statement is incorrect. At best Christ died ALSO for the ungodly, but not "for the ungodly" .... If what you suggest were true, no Christian believers would be saved (assuming the Christian doctrine in general is valid).
And as I already asked you several times : who were these "ungodly" you keep referring to during Jesus' life time?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tsila1777

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

If you make quotations, please do that correctly. The way you do now is very unclear. If you need instructions how to do, just ask !

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And here?

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Be glad that I offered you to help you with your unclear and poor post lay-out while including quotations by others. But I see : it's your long-toed ego again !
If you can't work out what I offered, what are you doing here on a board like AMHD ???

:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tsila

Question:

If someone does not believe in salvation, that does not make it untrue. Just as believing in salvation does not make it true.

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Yes, correct.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tsila

And if neither can be proven then how is one to decide what to believe?


Any comments?

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I think that if that can be proven or not, we can feel in us that this must be or must not be true. Then, we will, according to our feelings, I think, that we will choose rather to believe or not. However, there is also the Bible, which some kind of witnesses these events. Here also, true or not, there are the choices to believe or not. I think that believing in something doesn't really hurt, and putting your troubles and glorifying a God that you really think exist is helpful. Whatever you think, that will be my opinion.

Cred, I will no more discuss the irrelevant quotes you posted as tsila replied them, plus, I don't want to get off the thread, even if you post against my hereby post. So don't need to wait for an answer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

As most of the times is the case with your posts : YES, lot's of them!


I clearly reacted to your posts #218 and #219. Posts that included quotations from my hand.
Did you forget that perhaps already?


Your subconcious indicates what is acceptable to your upper brain's logical thinking.
Influencing that subconcious is a slow and difficult process.


No problem that you BELIEVE that. But the statement is incorrect. At best Christ died ALSO for the ungodly, but not "for the ungodly" .... If what you suggest were true, no Christian believers would be saved (assuming the Christian doctrine in general is valid).
And as I already asked you several times : who were these "ungodly" you keep referring to during Jesus' life time?


Be glad that I offered you to help you with your unclear and poor post lay-out while including quotations by others. But I see : it's your long-toed ego again !
If you can't work out what I offered, what are you doing here on a board like AMHD ???

:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

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Insults do not bother me, Cred. As your opinions are just that and no more. I could not care less what you think of me personally. So fire away, you are shooting blanks. :p
__________________________________________________ ________
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
According to the rules, which I assume, only apply to Christians : I must start every sentence with 'I believe'

Quote
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
Incorrect Tsila. You can state whatever you want as you like. I only (strongly) suggest that you start every religious claim with "I believe", as for instance in : "I believe that God wants me to ...." , or "I believe that God is the Creator".
Of course you do not have to do that, but not doing so will result in everyone being free to question such statement.
__________________________________________________ ___________

You said if I did not start a statement with “I believe” the result would be that everyone was free to question such statement, inferring that if did start a sentence with 'I believe', then it would not be questioned.

__________________________________________________ ________
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
statement of faith....I believe Christ died for the ungodly....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
No problem that you BELIEVE that. But the statement is incorrect. At best Christ died ALSO for the ungodly, but not "for the ungodly" .... If what you suggest were true, no Christian believers would be saved (assuming the Christian doctrine in general is valid).
And as I already asked you several times : who were these "ungodly" you keep referring to during Jesus' life time?
__________________________________________________ __________


I said nothing of 'during Jesus' lifetime”……….you added that as you always add something, twisting statements and misquoting others. And you broke your own rule.

Cred, I will type this very slowly so you can read it and understand it. Hopefully!! There were no Christians until after Christ died. That was the point of his death and resurrection. It was to save sinner.

I believe Christ died for the sins of the whole world. The ungodly, everyone was condemned under sin and those that do not accept the salvation for which Christ died are still condemned already and without hope, and bound for Hell. This is what I believe. I've answered your question, but you have yet to answer mine.


It would be too long and to hard for you to understand for me to explain all of this about Law and Grace. So end of topic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Unknown008

Yes, correct.



I think that if that can be proven or not, we can feel in us that this must be or must not be true. Then, we will, according to our feelings, i think, that we will choose rather to believe or not. However, there is also the Bible, which some kind of witnesses these events. Here also, true or not, there are the choices to believe or not. I think that believing in something doesn't really hurt, and putting your troubles and glorifying a God that you really think exist is helpful. Whatever you think, that will be my opinion.

Cred, i will no more discuss the irrelevant quotes you posted as tsila replied them, plus, i don't wnat to get off the thread, even if you post against my hereby post. So don't need to wait for an answer.

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Dear Unk,
That is correct. The proof, the evidence is on the inside. It is a ‘knowing’ that what you believe is true. To us it is a fact, and that should be enough for the unbelievers, the ungodly and the sinners. Agnostic and Atheistic, the unlearned and anyone else, who label themselves according to their beliefs that I may have missed, are just incapable of understanding the Christian faith. The unspiritual cannot understand spiritual things.

It is by this faith that we are saved, if not for faith, no one would be saved. Why do they care so much why does it annoy them so much?

It is unfortunate that some come to this board only toask unlearned and ignorant questions, instead of discussing the topic. Just like the Pharisees and the Sad U sees that tried to trick Jesus with unprofitable questions.



They also made rules and laws for others to follow, but they themselves did not follow.


Jesus said that they made a big show of washing the outside of the cup, which was of no value, it is the inside that needs cleansing and Jesus provided this by the shedding of His Blood, which cleanses us from all sin.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [B

Credendovidis[/B]] Your subconscious indicates what is acceptable to your upper brain's logical thinking. Influencing that subconscious is a slow and difficult process.

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This is so true, and I am sorry you have this problem. I suppose this is why you get so frustrated that you have to stoop to insults.

Thanks for the answer Tsila, and good return to Cred too:p!

Thanks for everything Unk.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Theological doctrines:

1. God is satisfied with his works Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works. Gen 6:6

Lets put them in context as not to confuse the non believers by your nonsense:
Passage Genesis 1:31:

31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 6

1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

9These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Keep in mind that this was the post period following the exile from Eden. Sin had entered into the world. Man is not godly nor do they follow any of gods rules. Man is evil and in the world they are lost.

Funny how you think some blurb defined your argument. If you actually read the passages...hmm. Might help if you actually read the bible instead of cherry picking verses to ridicule as inconsistent.

2. God dwells in chosen temples 2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples Acts 7:48
Passage 2 Chronicles 7:12:

12And the LORD appeared to Solomon by night, and said unto him, I have heard thy prayer, and have chosen this place to myself for an house of sacrifice.


Referring to Old Testament sacrifice to god. Something the Old testament, under gods "law" demanded. By the way in the original text no translation says anything about god dwells in a chosen temple. just saying.

Passage Acts 7:40-48:
40 They told Aaron, 'Make us some gods who can lead us, for we don't know what has become of this Moses, who brought us out of Egypt.' 41 So they made an idol shaped like a calf, and they sacrificed to it and celebrated over this thing they had made. 42 Then God turned away from them and abandoned them to serve the stars of heaven as their gods! In the book of the prophets it is written,

'Was it to me you were bringing sacrifices and offerings
during those forty years in the wilderness, Israel?
43 No, you carried your pagan gods—
the shrine of Molech,
the star of your god Rephan,
and the images you made to worship them.
So I will send you into exile
as far away as Babylon.'[a]

44 “Our ancestors carried the Tabernacle[b] with them through the wilderness. It was constructed according to the plan God had shown to Moses. 45 Years later, when Joshua led our ancestors in battle against the nations that God drove out of this land, the Tabernacle was taken with them into their new territory. And it stayed there until the time of King David.

46 “David found favor with God and asked for the privilege of building a permanent Temple for the God of Jacob.[c] 47 But it was Solomon who actually built it. 48 However, the Most High doesn't live in temples made by human hands. As the prophet says,


I changed it to a simple translation as to not confuse the context. You are still reaching my friend. Might not always believe what you read on the internet. I can go passage by passage and show you that taking one line out of the bible that has been changed by someone who has not clue what they are reading is false doctrine. Something I might add that is very clearly heretical.


I stopped here with no. 50. Don't want to overload here. But I have about 500 more of these .... In various categories, including Historical Facts and Speculative Doctrines
Of course you can argue about a couple of these, but there are too many remaining to dismiss the statement that the Bible is loaded with contradictions !

:rolleyes:

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Personally stopped after two because to waist anymore time showing this nonsense to be false is just that, a waste of time. I challenge people to pick up the bible and actually read. Read the greek. Read the hebrew. Read your history. Educate yourself on the actual words, tenses, before you use some half cocked internet example.

Nice Smoked. See that Cred?

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To us it is a fact, and that should be enough for the unbelievers, the ungodly and the sinners. Agnostic and Atheistic, the unlearned and anyone else, who label themselves according to their beliefs that I may have missed, are just incapable of understanding the Christian faith. The unspiritual cannot understand spiritual things.

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It is a fact to you, I understand that, but it isn't fact to everyone. I have a problem with the name calling, ungodly, sinners, the unlearned, just because we don't believe the same thing you do does not mean we are any of those things.

We are all sinners, yes even Christians sin. We are all ungodly, by definition only God can be Godly, so therefore everyone who is not a God would be ungodly, nes pas? As for being unlearned, not true. I have read the bible, I have studied the bible, I have gone to Church, why do you think I don't believe in them, it's not because I'm lazy or ignorant, or even unintelligent, it's because neither of them made realistic sense.

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It is by this faith that we are saved, if not for faith, no one would be saved. Why do they care so much why does it annoy them so much?

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I have faith, but it's not the same faith as yours. Why does it annoy me when people quote the bible and say it's fact, because I don't believe it is and because I've had people try to push it on me my entire life. Because of my upbringing, the bullying I received from the Christians I went to school with, I do not back down when someone claims that their way is the only way, that they are right. I'm not saying that you are bullying, but until you can express your belief without using the bible, well, to me it's just stories in a book, nothing more, not the word of God and nothing anyone says or does will change my belief. We cannot discuss the existence of God with each other because we do not agree on the basis for eachothers beliefs. It does not mean that you are more spiritual, nor does it mean that I am, we are just different, not less, not more, just different. Please try and respect that difference, even if you don't accept it.

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This is so true, and I am sorry you have this problem. I suppose this is why you get so frustrated that you have to stoop to insults.

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As for this comment, although not directed at me, aren't Christians supposed to turn the other cheek? Responding to a supposed insult with one of your own, well, that's an eye for an eye not what the bible teaches. See, we are all sinners.

I was going to stay out of this conversation, but seeing as it's not going anywhere I figured I'd add my two cents, which is about what my opinion is worth. ;)

Wouldn't be wonderful if one Religion topic didn't turn into a "us vs. them" scenario?

It would, but alas it isn't possible from either side.

If you are talking to me Smoked, I am neither the us or the them, just me. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

It would, but alas it isn't possible from either side.

If you are talking to me Smoked, I am neither the us or the them, just me. :)

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It was a blanket statement commenting on the entire thread. I suppose, I should have been more specific as to not infer something that could be misconstrued or possibly twisted.

Every thread that the topic lies with religion tends to turn into a battle of beliefs or non belief.

I think this particular thread is humorous because the topic had nothing to do with those who don't believe. Yet, people who don't believe have come to this topic to berate those who believe, and suggest the believers are forcing their beliefs on them.

Let me finish with this isn't directed at any one person. If you are convicted by this statement then before you lash back think about why it bothers you first. :rolleyes:

I agree with you, but have to say that posting in Religious discussions means that you want to discuss all points of view, as this is a board specifically for that purpose, discussion. Not everyone who comes to this board believes in God, or the bible, or church. Therefore, when you post bible scripture you have to expect that other people who's beliefs are different will come to question what you posted.

Religion is a touchy subject, because there are so many different points of view on that subject. I myself do believe in God, but not the bible and not organized religion, I prefer to be disorganized. ;)

This particular thread probably would have been better off being posted in the Christianity thread, if the OP wanted to discuss the validity of the statement, and not hear opposing views. Posting here left the thread open to all beliefs, and that is always a tumultuous undertaking.

There are rules my parents used to tell me, that I have trouble following, one set was this; never discuss religion, politics or sex unless you want an argument. I never discuss politics. :);)

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

There are rules my parents used to tell me, that I have trouble following, one set was this; never discuss religion, politics or sex unless you want an arguement. I never discuss politics. :);)

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I lol'd in rl.. hehe :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

It is a fact to you, I understand that, but it isn't fact to everyone. I have a problem with the name calling, ungodly, sinners, the unlearned, just because we don't believe the same thing you do does not mean we are any of those things.

We are all sinners, yes even Christians sin. We are all ungodly, by definition only God can be Godly, so therefore everyone who is not a God would be ungodly, nes pas? As for being unlearned, not true. I have read the bible, I have studied the bible, I have gone to Church, why do you think I don't believe in them, it's not because I'm lazy or ignorant, or even unintelligent, it's because neither of them made realistic sense.



I have faith, but it's not the same faith as yours. Why does it annoy me when people quote the bible and say it's fact, because I don't believe it is and because I've had people try to push it on me my entire life. Because of my upbringing, the bullying I received from the Christians I went to school with, I do not back down when someone claims that their way is the only way, that they are right. I'm not saying that you are bullying, but until you can express your belief without using the bible, well, to me it's just stories in a book, nothing more, not the word of God and nothing anyone says or does will change my belief. We cannot discuss the existence of God with eachother because we do not agree on the basis for eachothers beliefs. It does not mean that you are more spiritual, nor does it mean that I am, we are just different, not less, not more, just different. Please try and respect that difference, even if you don't accept it.



As for this comment, although not directed at me, aren't Christians supposed to turn the other cheek? Responding to a supposed insult with one of your own, well, that's an eye for an eye not what the bible teaches. See, we are all sinners.

I was going to stay out of this conversation, but seeing as it's not going anywhere I figured I'd add my two cents, which is about what my opinion is worth. ;)

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I did want to close it down, but Cred wanted to continue it. Blame him.

Actually the term 'turning the other cheek' was because it was shameful to hit someone with the back of the hand, and therefore if you offer the other cheek you are giving them the opportunity to hit you with the back of the hand.

What name calling? If none of those fit you, then I was not talking about you, so why do you have a problem with it. But there are those people in the world, right? You said so yourself.

No, we cannot discuss the existence of God with each other. I do not recall trying to. I made a comment, saying, "I believe" as I was told to do... :confused:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Smoked

It was a blanket statement commenting on the entire thread. I suppose, I should have been more specific as to not infer something that could be misconstrued or possibly twisted.

Every thread that the topic lies with religion tends to turn into a battle of beliefs or non belief.

I think this particular thread is humorous because the topic had nothing to do with those who don't believe. Yet, people who don't believe have come to this topic to berate those who believe, and suggest the believers are forcing their beliefs on them.

Let me finish with this isn't directed at any one person. If you are convicted by this statement then before you lash back think about why it bothers you first. :rolleyes:

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I agree it is humorous. Just because there is an open thread, does not mean everyone has to post on it, especially if they disagree so strongly and do not want it forced on them, to be preached to, or to be converted. And as you said: not directed at anyone…but if it offends you ask yourself why before you attack.

I keep reading where this is a religious board, where everyone is allowed to post what they believe, but it is so often suggested that I personally should move to the Christian board. I should have closed it long ago. Oh well..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Unknown008

Nice Smoked. See that Cred?

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Saw that you unknown creature !
Smoked shows perfectly what religion does to you : you lower your standards of logic and support to fit your religious belief. But that still does not make your religious belief valid : only OSE will do that !

:rolleyes:

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