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Originally Posted by lobrobster
I'd like every discussion to be civil. But it's sometimes hard when two people are looking at the same wall and one calls it white and the other blue, and both are convinced their perception of the wall is correct.
Agreed.
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Ok, but they ALL weren't disobedient. Certainly 3 month old babies weren't disobedient.
True, but 3 month old babies who have died are in heaven.
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And what do you mean by 'to protect his people'? I thought we were all children of God and therefore 'his' people?
If you have rejected God, why do you consider yourself His?
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This might be my lack of understanding the bible.
Agreed.
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I know it is said that the Jews are His chosen people.
It is. God has always selected certain men to teach others about Him. Adam, Seth, the Patriarchs, Moses, Aaron, the Levites, the Prophets, the Apostles, the Church.
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But I thought we were all God's children.
We are if we accept Him as our Father. But if we don't, then we are not part of His Family. We remain His creatures, but not His children.
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This is another thing that never made sense to me.
No problem.
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Yes, men carried out the act. But almost everyone here agrees about the importance of a blood sacrifice. Sassy says: Without the Blood of Jesus that he shed for our sin, we can not approach God because of our sin. Surely, there had to have been a better way.
Whether there is a better way I don't know. I know that this way is very effective.
Simple question. What do you share with your children? Answer, your flesh and blood.
Jesus, sacrificed Himself for us in order to share with us His Flesh and Blood. It is His Flesh and Blood which we eat in the Eucharist. In so doing He signifies and we accept that we are His Family. It is the New Covenant in His Blood.
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And not to derail our discussion, but I've always wondered what would have happened if Pontius Pilate had been able to 'wash his hands' of Jesus and let him go? Would humanity be doomed now? I don't think you can have it both ways De Maria.
That depends on whether the Jews would then have accepted Jesus or crucified Him on their own.
If the Jews had accepted Jesus, then I believe the rest of the world would have as well.
But that is simply speculation since it didn't happen that way.
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You can't say the blood of Jesus' crucifixion was required AND that man did it in the same breath. Either man did it and Jesus didn't have to die, or Jesus had little to do with our being saved. It can't be both.
I agree with your logic. That is why I don't believe that the Crucifixion was absolutely necessary.
Did I say that Jesus' crucifixion was required? Although many theologians believe it was. It is not Church doctrine however. Therefore we are free to speculate on the matter.
Nor is it Church doctrine that Adam and Eve had to sin. Many theologians believe that as well. But it is not Church doctrine and we are free to speculate either way.
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Just the same it was pretty mean, don't you think? Not just to Abraham, but what about the kid? If someone held a knife to their kid's throat in 2008 I'm sure (I hope), you'd be among the first to suggest his immediate arrest. Lastly...
This is where faith comes in.
I, have learned from experience, from observation and from study, that God is Love, God is good and God does everything for our good.
Therefore, although I don't claim to understand why God tested Abraham this way, I know by faith that God did not do it to be mean.
How many times have you heard of someone being arrested for assault as an example? And people who love him say, "there's no way, he isn't capable of such behavior."
That is because, from prior experience they have learned that this person is good and they have faith in that person.
So, although I don't understand why God tested Abraham, I know because of my love for Him that He did it not only for Abraham's own good but for ours.
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It sounds as though you might be saying, it's God's ball and he can play whatever game he wants with it. To some extent I agree with this.
To some extent that is true.
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I'm not one of those atheists who claim I would spit at the feet of god even if I knew he existed (because to worship such a tyrant would violate my own moral code). The fact is, if this god is real then we are all living in his universe and we can either get with the program (no matter how gruesome we find it), or perish. That seems reasonable to me.
Bingo! Except I don't think God is a tyrant. I believe God is protecting you from a tyrant.
I don't know if you have children, but I do. And I find this the best metaphor for God, He is our Father.
How many times, if you have children or if you remember your childhood, did you resent the good that your parents enforced by tough love. You may not have thought they loved you when they spanked you, but they did and you know it is true now that you've grown up.
Sincerely,
De Maria
