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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, sassy:

Well, ACTUALLY, if the principals ARE religions, they're JEWISH - NOT Christian. We had those principals LOOOOONG before you called 'em YOURS.

So, we are a Jewish Nation based upon Jewish principals. Please pass the lox.

excon

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Jewish principle, christian principles what ever you want to call it.. definitely NOT Atheist.

Hello again, sassy:

Cool. Jews like faygeles.

excon

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Originally Posted by sassyT

I think it is unfair for a poor helpless child to be adopted by a couple of Gays. The child doesnt have the choice to grow up in a normal family with a mother and a father. He/she will be forced to have 2 dads and not have the oppotunity of experiencing a mother. I just think it's unfair fo children to be forced into such abnormal situations..

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So a normal family is a mother and a father. Great so my poor nephew whose father died when he was 2 he will not grow up in a normal family because his father died. He won't have the opportunity to experience the love of a father. How dare his mother force him to live in such an abnormal state... she should just have him adopted by a family with a mother and father. Isn't that right Sassy? Oh no... one of my students is raised by his grandma, only his grandma... he should definitely be adopted because that is ABNORMAL! Of course it is completely normal to him... do we see how subjective normal is yet Sassy?

I guess I am of the belief that a child should be raised in a loving home. I don't care if it is mom and dad, dad and dad, mom and mom or with the grandparents. A loving home is a loving home.

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Originally Posted by WVHiflyer

"Under God" was added to the Pledge in the late 50s for purely religious reasons. It was not there originally and does not belong. T Jefferson acknowledged that even atheists had a right to not believe and were to be accepted as full members of the US. To add that phrase to the pledge is a slap at those who do not believe in God - and to those who believe in more than one.

And freedom of religion is not a 'Christian' principle. Christians have been among those who most abuse folks for not believing as they. (Just ask Jews, witches, wiccans, pagans, atheists, the victims of the Inquisition........)

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Freedom of religion is a Christian Principle. All nations that are predominantly Christian excersise freedom of religion. Bible teaches free will and to love others. All the so called "Chrisitans" who were doing the above you mentioned were acting out on their own evil because they did not get out of the Bible.

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Originally Posted by sassyT

I think it is unfair for a poor helpless child to be adopted by a couple of Gays. The child doesnt have the choice to grow up in a normal family with a mother and a father. He/she will be forced to have 2 dads and not have the oppotunity of experiencing a mother. I just think it's unfair fo children to be forced into such abnormal situations..

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Bet you think it's unfair for a poor helpless child to be raised in a single family home, too.

Should we take those kids away from single mothers, or force them to marry the father?

And should we just get rid of divorce, since that deprives kids of living with two parents?

Oooooh! And let's go back to marrying your brother's widow while we're at it, so that no woman is ever single with kids!

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Originally Posted by sassyT

The country was founded on Christian principles and morals. One nation under God. Freedom of religion is a Christian principle.

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Not correct. "One nation under God" indicates DEISM. "One nation under Jesus Christ" would indicate Christianity. Note that this line was never part of the foundation statement!

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Originally Posted by sassyT

Freedom of religion is a Christian Principle.

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"Freedom of religion" is CLEARLY a general theist principle. As history has shown so many times : if it was up to Christianity, you would only have "freedom of the Christian religion" and nothing else.

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Originally Posted by sassyT

All nations that are predominantly Christian excersise freedom of religion.

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Christianity did it's utmost to block that freedom almost everywhere. It was the demand for (secular) democracy and freedom of and from religion that forced Christianity into it's current position. Christianity is JUST one of the major religions. Nothing more.


:D

[QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by Tuscany

So a normal family is a mother and a father. Great so my poor nephew whose father died when he was 2 he will not grow up in a normal family because his father died. He won't have the opportunity to experience the love of a father. How dare his mother force him to live in such an abnormal state... she should just have him adopted by a family with a mother and father. Isn't that right Sassy? Oh no... one of my students is raised by his grandma, only his grandma... he should definitely be adopted because that is ABNORMAL! Of course it is completely normal to him... do we see how subjective normal is yet Sassy?

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At least your nephew did not have to grow up in a confusing environment where daddy is making out with daddy. Single parent, grandparent is normal, at least the child is not exposed to the unusual sexual habits of homosexual life style. Look, you don't have to agree with me but if I had a child that I was willing to give away for adoption, I would never give it up to a couple of Gays. That's just my opinion on the matter you don't have to agree and you don't have to convince me that I am wrong to feel that way.

[QUOTE=sassyT]

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At least your nephew did not have to grow up in a confusing environment where daddy is making out with daddy. Single parent is normal, at least the child is not exposed to the homosexual life style. Look, you don't have to agree with me but if I had a child that I was willing to give away for adoption, I would never give it up to a couple of Gays. That's just my opinion on the matter you don't have to agree and you don't have to convince me that I am wrong to feel that way.

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Just for the record your definition of normal is abnormal to me.

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Originally Posted by sassyT

Single parent, grandparent is normal, atleast the child is not exposed to the unusual sexual habits of homosexual life style.

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Am I to understand that you have sex in front of your children?? How else would they know the heterosexual sexual habits? That is grounds to have your children removed from you.

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Originally Posted by sassyT

Freedom of religion is a Christian Principle. All nations that are predominantly Christian excersise freedom of religion. Bible teaches free will and to love others. All the so called "Chrisitans" who were doing the above you mentioned were acting out on their own evil because they did not get out of the Bible.

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Christians believe in ONE GOD> They insist that everyone believe in that same god. That's not freedom of religion.

Freedom of religion is that your religion is NOT the reason that you would force your beliefs on an entire country. Rather, it means that regardless whether you feel homosexuality is MORALLY wrong (based on your religion) that you still believe they have the right to be equal to everyone else. That includes marriage.

[

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QUOTE=Credendovidis]Not correct. "One nation under God" indicates DEISM. "One nation under Jesus Christ" would indicate Christianity.. Note that this line was never part of the foundation statement!

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Lol You wish Credo... Don't you know that Jesus Christ is God? Believe me When they say one nation under God they mean Jehovah. Go back and read the Quotes form the founding fathers. When they talk about God, they are talking about Jehovah God not just some unknown deity..

[QUOTE=Tuscany]

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Originally Posted by sassyT

Just for the record your definition of normal is abnormal to me.

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Like wise...

[QUOTE=Tuscany]

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Originally Posted by sassyT

Just for the record your definition of normal is abnormal to me.

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Likewise...

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, De Maria:

OMG! Who can possibly argue with ignorance of this magnitude????

excon

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EX,

Now if a Christian said this to someone like yourself... it would be reported! She is entitled to her beliefs. Tsk tsk... don't make me report you ;)

I think it is wrong because the Bible says it is wrong. Period. No more wrong than eating fruit that Adam and Eve were told not to... or telling a lie, or not loving your neighor... but wrong.

It is MY humble opinion but I think that the real question here is... is there any absolute right and wrong? Is there absolute truth? No one wants absolute anymore.. they NEED to believe that as long as they hurt no one.. it is OK. God doesn't think like that. And you can't answer a question like this and leave the Bible out of it. That is what I think.. naah.. that is what I KNOW. Big difference:D

sassyT, Freedom of religion is a Christian Principle.
History tells us that this was not always the case, and much blood was shed before Christians became more civilized. The process is still continuing.
All nations that are predominantly Christian excersise freedom of religion.
Not really accurate, as all the nations of the world have many religions that make up their population. Name one exclusively Christian nation.
Bible teaches free will and to love others.
Love others is not an exclusive Christian bible thing either, but a universal human concept. Many religions embrace that concept and they predate Christianity by centuries.
All the so called "Chrisitans" who were doing the above you mentioned were acting out on their own evil because they did not get out of the Bible.
That can also be said by any, and all, evil people who use God as their excuse to subjugate, destroy, control, and enslave, all those they deem to be different , or enemies of whatever they stand for.

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Originally Posted by sassyT

You wish Credo... Dont you know that Jesus Christ is God? Believe me When they say one nation under God they mean Jehovah. go back and read the Quotes form the founding fathers. When they talk about God, they are talking about Jehovah God not just some unknown diety..

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Oh, I know that Christians believe that all parts of the Trinity add up to God.
But just "God" is not the property of Christianity. There are many religions based on one God or more Gods.

What you personally mean with "God" - where you refer to Jehovah - is part of your Chrisitan belief. Not with the God in "One Nation Under God".

The Founding Fathers were very clear. They did not mention nor referred to the Christian God at all . Anywhere. Any time.
And where today is referred to "God" it is to a general DEIST God to allow all people of all religions to be included in that "One Nation Under God".

:D

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The Founding Fathers were very clear. They did not mention nor referred to the Christian God at all . Anywhere. Any time.
And where today is referred to "God" it is to a general DEIST God to allow all people of all religions to be included in that "One Nation Under God".

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Well said!!

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I think it is wrong because the Bible says it is wrong. Period.

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Then forget your free will, just obey. That means don't judge, that's Gods domain, not yours. Your duty is to love, that includes homosexuals. Denying another human the same freedoms and right that you enjoy is a form of judgement.

To deny another what you have, and enjoy, because of who they are, and what they do, is prejudice.

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Originally Posted by classyT

EX,

now if a Christian said this to someone like yourself...it would be reported! She is entitled to her beliefs. tsk tsk...don't make me report you ;)

I think it is wrong because the Bible says it is wrong. Period. No more wrong than eating fruit that Adam and Eve were told not to...or telling a lie, or not loving your neighor... but wrong.

It is MY humble opinion but i think that the real question here is....is there any absolute right and wrong? Is there absolute truth? No one wants absolute anymore..they NEED to believe that as long as they hurt no one..it is ok. God doesn't think like that. And you can't answer a question like this and leave the Bible out of it. That is what i think..naah..that is what i KNOW. big difference:D

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I DARE you to report Excon for that. Seriously. Christians say things like that all the time, and most of the time it's just discussed further (as here) rather than being reported. Most of us non-Christians realize that of all religions, Christians are the most fervent about "knowing" that they're right or wrong--and all because THEIR holy book wasn't burned along with them when other religions got touchy about it.

Most Witches and other pagans lost their history and their grimoires when the Christians took ONE LINE from the Bible and went after witches and wise women with a vengeance--because they were different. Should we go back to THOSE days, too? I mean, the Bible says "thou shall not suffer a witch to live". Should I start watching my back, since obviously witchcraft is wrong according to the Bible? Just like, according to the Bible, homosexuality is wrong?

How DOES God think then? Has He appointed YOU to tell us? I mean, if He wants me to change my thinking, maybe He should pop down here and explain what he has against witches, other than that they don't worship Him. I mean, several hundred years of my "sisters" being burned is pretty drastic, don't you think? And if He really felt that way, and allowed it to go on that long--why is it okay to stop now, if you TRULY believe?

THAT is what drives me crazy about the whole Christian Principles thing: the fact that all you have to do is wait around 100 years or so, and a new interpretation of the Bible will prevail, and Christian Principles will change again.

As far as I know, Jesus said to spread the word about him, not to force others to believe in him. If I don't believe in him, I don't believe in his rules, and I should not have to live by them. Christian Principles, my right butt cheek. If we were living by Christian principles in this country, there would be no unwed mothers, no divorce, no hungry, no poor, no hate, people would forgive, there would be no extra-marital affairs, there wouldn't be pornography, etc.

And there's no way that you can tell me that with the majority of this country being Christian that the minority of other religions is causing ALL of these problems.

Look to yourself, first. If you have sinned, you repent, and don't sin again, right? Well, what is intolerance but hatred in the form of fear? You don't have to LIKE what someone else does, you just have to NOT DO IT YOURSELF. And you have to forgive those who trespass against you, or against god. It is not your place to judge them or hate them or belittle them, according to the Bible. It's your place to pray for them and forgive them and still treat them with compassion and love. GOD will judge, says the Bible.

So... if you don't agree with homosexuality--GREAT! Don't do it! If you don't want gay marriage, then go to a church that will not marry gays--but what the church and state do are completely separate. If you don't want your child adopted by gays--GREAT! You can choose your adoptive parents as a birthparent most times. But--because this country is based on the fact that all men are equal, you can not STOP gays from marrying, or adopting, or existing!

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Originally Posted by Synnen

I DARE you to report excon for that. Seriously. Christians say things like that all the time, and most of the time it's just discussed further (as here) rather than being reported. Most of us non-Christians realize that of all religions, Christians are the most fervent about "knowing" that they're right or wrong--and all because THEIR holy book wasn't burned along with them when other religions got touchy about it.

Most Witches and other pagans lost their history and their grimoires when the Christians took ONE LINE from the Bible and went after witches and wise women with a vengeance--because they were different. Should we go back to THOSE days, too? I mean, the Bible says "thou shall not suffer a witch to live". Should I start watching my back, since obviously witchcraft is wrong according to the Bible? Just like, according to the Bible, homosexuality is wrong?

How DOES God think then? Has He appointed YOU to tell us? I mean, if He wants me to change my thinking, maybe He should pop down here and explain what he has against witches, other than that they don't worship Him. I mean, several hundred years of my "sisters" being burned is pretty drastic, don't you think? And if He really felt that way, and allowed it to go on that long--why is it okay to stop now, if you TRULY believe?

THAT is what drives me crazy about the whole Christian Principles thing: the fact that all you have to do is wait around 100 years or so, and a new interpretation of the Bible will prevail, and Christian Principles will change again.

As far as I know, Jesus said to spread the word about him, not to force others to believe in him. If I don't believe in him, I don't believe in his rules, and I should not have to live by them. Christian Principles, my right butt cheek. If we were living by Christian principles in this country, there would be no unwed mothers, no divorce, no hungry, no poor, no hate, people would forgive, there would be no extra-marital affairs, there wouldn't be pornography, etc.

And there's no way that you can tell me that with the majority of this country being Christian that the minority of other religions is causing ALL of these problems.

Look to yourself, first. If you have sinned, you repent, and don't sin again, right? Well, what is intolerance but hatred in the form of fear? You don't have to LIKE what someone else does, you just have to NOT DO IT YOURSELF. And you have to forgive those who trespass against you, or against god. It is not your place to judge them or hate them or belittle them, according to the Bible. It's your place to pray for them and forgive them and still treat them with compassion and love. GOD will judge, says the Bible.

So...if you don't agree with homosexuality--GREAT! Don't do it! If you don't want gay marriage, then go to a church that will not marry gays--but what the church and state do are completely separate. If you don't want your child adopted by gays--GREAT! You can choose your adoptive parents as a birthparent most times. But--because this country is based on the fact that all men are equal, you can not STOP gays from marrying, or adopting, or existing!

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A standing ovation for Synn! Well said, well thought out, beautifully written.