Ask Me Help Desk - I've had enough of this May 2011 world is ending theory...

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Originally Posted by Hope12

I know that the creator of such wonderful things as the human body, would never destroy it in such an evil ways.

But he did and you're simply choosing to ignore that part.

If it's all the same to everyone here, I'm going to believe in a God (a first source and center, rather), while also knowing full well that we all run the risk of death by natural disaster, car wreck, heart attack, etc, every day. And that's just life. No God about it. And yes, when we tinker with natural habitats, we run a greater risk of death by natural disaster, as posters have pointed out.

I believe I'm a part of something MUCH bigger than myself, and I am grateful to have been included in it. I ponder my place often, and I attempt to converse with that which created me (because I feel it in my soul that that thing which created me is listening somehow). My mind and heart both have issues subscribing to any single establishment of religion, but that doesn't mean I disrespect them or those who do subscribe to them.

I believe, but I can't look at the bible as total truth. Nor any other book I believe to have been scribed by man.

Anyway, I do love reading about where others come from when they discuss their faith. I love how much we all come into our own as we grow and experience life. It would be awesome if we could all just accept that we got there in our individual ways-and that's OK.

*off the soapbox*

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Originally Posted by southamerica

It would be awesome if we could all just accept that we got there in our individual ways-and that's OK.

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/imag...new/icon14.gif

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Originally Posted by Hope12

Hello NeedKarma,

Thanks for the reading material you suggested.

However, when one has true faith and confidence in the God of the Universe, they do not need to read mans estimates of what they think. Those who estimate such things are just imperfect men. I know that the creator of such wonderful things as the human body, would never destroy it in such an evil ways.

peace,
Hope12

Um, do the words "Sodom" and "Gomorrah" ring any bells? God has destroyed human bodies in a multitude of ways. The real question is, were those people really "innocent"? By whose standards? How is their innocence (or lack thereof) determined? That's one of the places where faith comes in: belief and confidence that, even when God does something like raining fire on two whole cities, he knows what he's doing and has good reasons for doing so.

Natural disasters like the recent tsunami are another matter. Jesus said the Father makes the rain fall on the just and the unjust alike. Why? Because he's built a world that works according to certain laws of physics. That means, among other things, that sometimes *beep* happens. There's no blame to be assigned, either to God or anybody else. Can we help natural disasters along by messing up our environment? Sure. But some things happen regardless. Hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, forest fires and such have been happening for as long as the planet has been around, as far as we can tell. The best we can do is try not to be in their path. It's how the world runs.

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Originally Posted by Synnen

Boy, I'd love to get into technicalities, here.

I mean, it's considered negligent homocide if you LET someone die when you could save them--especially if you have a responsibility to try to save them, as in a parent over a child, or a child care provider.

So...since god is the "Father", doesn't have have a responsibility to save the lives of his children? If he DOES, wouldn't he be guilty of at least negligent homocide for letting innocent people die when he has the power of miracles to save them?

Doesn't that mean that God DOES let innocent people die?

Death was never part of God's plan. He meant for mankind to live with him and in fellowship with him forever. Adam sinned. This caused the curse on the earth and mankind. However because God loves man, he sent his son to redeem us back. God is HOLY, He is soveriegn. And he gives mankind freewill. You can accept it or reject it. Regardless, the bible says something like... shall not the judge of the earth do right. I'm satisfied he will always do right and judge right. But then, I am a woman of faith. I believe God. :)

Of course there another to way to live your life and that is without any god of any sort. It seems to work well for a lot of people!

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Of course there another to way to live your life and that is without any god of any sort. It seems to work well for a lot of people!

Not for me :), I like the romance of not knowing.

And the mystery of where I'm going.

But, I have to hand it to Atheists. At least they KNOW where they came from and where they're going! Nothing to argue about in that case.

So because Adam listened to his wife instead of his father, he doomed the rest of us forever and ever, amen?

And didn't GOD make that decision, even then, to punish Adam? Therefore, isn't GOD responsible for all the death in the world, because he doesn't prevent it?

Look, I'm not trying to disrespect anyone's faith. What I'm trying to point out is that my arguments are the same kind of arguments that people use to justify things because "That's what the Bible says".

I'm just using my logic on "what the Bible says" here.

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

The real question is, were those people really "innocent"?

I would say the children killed in their thousands (millions?) in the Old Testament were innocent.

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Originally Posted by Synnen

So...since god is the "Father", doesn't have have a responsibility to save the lives of his children? If he DOES, wouldn't he be guilty of at least negligent homocide for letting innocent people die when he has the power of miracles to save them?

Every day God may somehow prevent the deaths and serious injuries of myriads of people. We just don't know; there's no scorecard.

When air traffic controllers fall asleep, why aren't there more fatal plane crashes? With all the people driving around and texting (even when it's against the law), why aren't there more car accidents? When babies and children fall out of windows in apartment buildings (watch for news stories this summer), why aren't those kids killed? (Sometimes they aren't even hurt!) When many people set off 4th of July fire works, legally and illegally, why aren't there more accidents and maiming? While driving all these years, I've had my share of near misses by other drivers on the roads. You have too. Why weren't we hurt or killed in an accident?

Luck? Special skills? Guardian angels? God?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Every day God may somehow prevent the deaths and serious injuries of myriads of people. We just don't know; there's no scorecard.

When air traffic controllers fall asleep, why aren't there more fatal plane crashes? With all the people driving around and texting (even when it's against the law), why aren't there more car accidents? When babies and children fall out of windows in apartment buildings (watch for news stories this summer), why aren't those kids killed? (Sometimes they aren't even hurt!) When many people set off 4th of July fire works, legally and illegally, why aren't there more accidents and maiming? While driving all these years, I've had my share of near misses by other drivers on the roads. You have too. Why weren't we hurt or killed in an accident?

Luck? Special skills? Guardian angels? God?

Very nice, wondergirl, but how about those who WERE killed or maimed or injured?

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Originally Posted by Synnen

Therefore, isn't GOD responsible for all the death in the world, because he doesn't prevent it?

Parents educate and train their children, and thereby give them both roots and wings -- "wings" meaning the freedom to make their own choices. If Johnny makes a bad choice, should he get off scot free? Should his parents be blamed for the choice he made? Should Johnny endure the consequences of his choice?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Parents educate and train their children, and thereby give them both roots and wings -- "wings" meaning the freedom to make their own choices. If Johnny makes a bad choice, should he get off scot free? Should his parents be blamed for the choice he made? Should Johnny endure the consequences of his choice?

When God destroyed the world (the flood) or the Malachites or those other groups, who was making the choices then?

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Originally Posted by Athos

Very nice, wondergirl, but how about those who WERE killed or maimed or injured?

Someone had a choice to text or to fall asleep or to rob a 7-11. We have no guarantees in this life. We're in this together, to help each other. After the Indonesian tsunami, someone had said, "Where is God?" The best answer to that was, "Where are you? What are YOU doing to help these people?"

My point was that instead of damning God for allowing innocents to be killed, it might be more productive to look at it from the angle of "how many might He actually be saving?" And how many are we helping?

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Originally Posted by Athos

When God destroyed the world (the flood) or the Malachites or those other groups, who was making the choices then?

Those same people made the choice. They had been warned to clean up their act.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Those same people made the choice. They had been warned to clean up their act.

The children were warned? The babies not yet born? The lame and the halt?

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Originally Posted by Athos

The children were warned? The babies not yet born? The lame and the halt?

Collective/corporate responsibility

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

collective/corporate responsibility

When did you become a Fascist?

From Wikipedia --

Collective responsibility is a concept or doctrine, according to which individuals are to be held responsible for other people's actions by tolerating, ignoring, or harboring them, without actively collaborating in these actions.

You were never held hostage by a teacher who didn't know which student had done the misdeed?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

from Wikipedia --

Collective responsibility is a concept or doctrine, according to which individuals are to be held responsible for other people's actions by tolerating, ignoring, or harboring them, without actively collaborating in these actions.

You were never held hostage by a teacher who didn't know which student had done the misdeed?

My teacher wasn't God.

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Originally Posted by Synnen

So because Adam listened to his wife instead of his father, he doomed the rest of us forever and ever, amen?

And didn't GOD make that decision, even then, to punish Adam? Therefore, isn't GOD responsible for all the death in the world, because he doesn't prevent it?

Look, I'm not trying to disrespect anyone's faith. What I'm trying to point out is that my arguments are the same kind of arguments that people use to justify things because "That's what the Bible says".

I'm just using my logic on "what the Bible says" here.

I'm not feeling like you are disrepecting my faith. I think it is good to discuss things... won't always come to a conclusion but still good.

Eve was deceived, Adam wasn't, he did it knowing it was wrong. Seems like a minor sin if you compare it to mine but YES. God is a Holy God. We don't even understand what that means but he can't and won't overlook sin.

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Originally Posted by Athos

My teacher wasn't God.

Nor was he a Fascist.

/shrug

I think that every single day, every single thing that happens to us happens either because we need to either learn something from it, or we're reaping the consequences of our own actions--or both.

I can't believe in a god that punishes inequally. Rules are rules--and if you can't follow them, you SHOULD gain the consequences of your actions. I just don't happen to think that "the consequences" include a punishment like Hell. We make our own hell here on earth, and we cage ourselves in it according to our own failings and guilt.

[QUOTE=Wondergirl;2792695]Nor was he a Fascist.[/QUOTE

You're drifting again. Get back to the point.

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Originally Posted by Synnen

We make our own hell here on earth, and we cage ourselves in it according to our own failings and guilt.

I totally agree. I used to make my kids come up with their own punishments when they did A Bad Thing. They thought of worse things than I ever would have.

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Originally Posted by Synnen

/shrug

I think that every single day, every single thing that happens to us happens either because we need to either learn something from it, or we're reaping the consequences of our own actions--or both.

I can't believe in a god that punishes inequally. Rules are rules--and if you can't follow them, you SHOULD gain the consequences of your actions. I just don't happen to think that "the consequences" include a punishment like Hell. We make our own hell here on earth, and we cage ourselves in it according to our own failings and guilt.

Well, I believe He gave His son to us and Jesus took all the punishment of everyone upon himself so that we don't ever have to experience any of it. He took all our guilt, failings and shame too. In fact, if we are living in a "hell of our making"... HE is more than happy to restore our lives. Jesus said he came that we may have life and MORE abundently and whosoever will may come... sounds pretty darn equal to me. I see it as a win win... both for living here and in eternity.

Again, the problem with human beings is we don't see our sin as being an afront to a Holy God. We figure we aren't all THAT bad and we see the "good" that we do as enough to cover the bad. God says otherwise. But again... that is faith. Many people believe as you do Synn.

WG,

you don't believe in hell? Interesting.. didn't know that.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I totally agree. I used to make my kids come up with their own punishments when they did A Bad Thing. They thought of worse things than I ever would have.

That's EXACTLY how my dad raised us! And he also said that we punished ourselves worse than he would have.

I intend to utilize the same method when I raise children someday :)

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Originally Posted by classyT

Again, the problem with human beings is we don't see our sin as being an afront to a Holy God. We figure we aren't all THAT bad and we see the "good" that we do as enough to cover the bad.

I think you generalize here to rationalize your faith. There are no less bad things done by Christians as are done by non-Christians. People who do bad things are punished by the society they live in. I don't think anyone does a plus/minus calculation to rationalize their bad things.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I think you generalize here to rationalize your faith. There are no less bad things done by Christians as are done by non-Christians. People who do bad things are punished by the society they live in. I don;t think anyone does a plus/minus calculation to rationalize their bad things.

I agree, and I think the larger point in your post is how people rationalize faith. It's impossible not to. Or, at least, treat faith in a "meta-rational" way.

I'm not quick to simply discard the notion of faith because it doesn't meet logical standards.

As the great man said, There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I think you generalize here to rationalize your faith. There are no less bad things done by Christians as are done by non-Christians. People who do bad things are punished by the society they live in. I don;t think anyone does a plus/minus calculation to rationalize their bad things.

? I agree. Sin is sin.. I sin as a Christian and tend to think it isn't THAT bad. My statement has nothing to do with whether someone is a Christian or NOT. It is about God and how he views sin and what he did about it. Of course if you don't believe God exsists that is another story.

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Originally Posted by Athos

I'm not quick to simply discard the notion of faith because it doesn't meet logical standards.

I wasn't applying logical standards per se. If someone needs a book to keep them on the straight and narrow then read on I say! But not everyone has this requirement - that's basically my point.

NK,

Christianity isn't about being kept on the striaght and narrow. It is about GRACE. It is about me not being able to keep the law of God and Jesus did it for me so I could be perfect in the eyes of God. PERFECT.. me! Are you gagging yet. I know how you like me and all.. ha ha.. but that is what Christianity is about. And sorry to get off thread.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I wasn't applying logical standards per se. If someone needs a book to keep them on the straight and narrow then read on I say! But not everyone has this requirement - that's basically my point.

Ok, I read something into your post that wasn't there.

But don't we all read books, in one sense or another, to keep us on the straight and narrow? The"book" of our parents as we grow up?

But, I may be quibbling over semantics. We learn about life from many sources.

Hey all-I like these kinds of debates as much as the next person, but I think we need to stop going off track so much. This thread is about May 21st, and that date is soon approaching. We hijacked it and turned it into something totally different.

I'd really like this thread to still be in tact on that date and the following dates. I know it's not MY thread-but I just thought I'd throw that out there.

We could start another thread to continue this current train of thought if we wanted to.

Wow, this thread has really gone off track. Why don't we try to get it back to the original meaning before the big BenHammer closes it. I'd like to have it open when HSB has to come eat crow on May 22. :p

And shall we delete the post on May 22 ? * LOL*

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

And shall we delete the post on May 22 ? * LOL*

No need. It'll delete itself in the earthquake.

Wait at least until May 23 remember the international date line it might be late

Well times ticking on so I'd though I'd add this little snippet

CATS to be saved by BLASPHEMERS after the RAPTURE ? The Register

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Originally Posted by Curlyben

Well times ticking on so I'd though I'd add this little snippet

CATS to be saved by BLASPHEMERS after the RAPTURE ? The Register

I'm not planning to be raptured, but I have five cats, Ben. I could add your crew to mine for a small fee.