Ask Me Help Desk - My christian belief

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Originally Posted by Tj3

But if you don't know what an orientation is, how can you possibly understand what a "sexual orientation" is?

I stick by the definition of sexual orientation in Wikipedia.

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If you think that you know what an orientation is, just spit it out, and let's move forward. What are you afraid of?

Why is this word so important to you?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

inerrant, infallible

i.e. literally understood

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I stick by the definition of sexual orientation in Wikipedia.

So you still refuse to answer the question asked.

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Why is this word so important to you?

Do you ever actually read my posts? This was answered several times.

Just me, I don't think being tempted is a sin, but acting on that temptation is.

G&P

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Originally Posted by inthebox

Just me, I don't think being tempted is a sin, but acting on that temptation is.

I agree. Temptation is external. Once one accepts that temptation, and accepts it as their own desire / orientation, then, according to scripture, a sin has been committed even before the physical act.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

And from the secular world, not a single credible study has yet concluded that sexual orientation was something that people are born with.

No one's sexual identification is clearly expressed until about age 5. So whether you are born gay or straight or it develops sometime during those 5 years would be hard to pin down, but most researchers are looking at what happens in the womb during human development, not at what happens to toddlers.

Likewise, by the way, just for the record, human embryos do not all start female and then become male due the influence of testosterone. We start with no sex organs at all -- just as we have no kidneys, liver or any other organs. Early embryos have no testes, ovaries, or external genitalia and are described as being in the "indifferent stage" until about 7 weeks (9 weeks to a doctor).

Human embryos BEGIN to develop male or female organs between days 50 and 70 after fertilization, after which they are partly differentiated and everything can continue to develop. The Y antigen gene on the Y chromosome induces the development of the testes. If there is no Y chromosome, the embryo normally develops as a female, although there are exceptions. For example, the over expression of a single gene (WNT-4) can result in an XY female. That is, an individual who is genetically male but fully female otherwise. At about 20 weeks, the testes begin to secrete testosterone, which induce the development of the penis and scrotum. Intersex individuals--in which one sex is not easily assigned-- make up about 1 in 2500 births.

None of which has anything to do with gender identity, which as I say, finishes developing at around age five.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I agree. Temptation is external. Once one accepts that temptation, and accepts it as their own desire / orientation, then, according to scripture, a sin has been committed even before the physical act.

So until a homosexual accepts the temptation and acts on his desires, he has not sinned.

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Originally Posted by asking

None of which has anything to do with gender identity, which as I say, finishes developing at around age five.

You don't have kids, do you?

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Originally Posted by asking

No one's sexual identification is clearly expressed until about age 5. So whether you are born gay or straight or it develops sometime during those 5 years would be hard to pin down, but most researchers are looking at what happens in the womb during human development, not at what happens to toddlers.

Likewise, by the way, just for the record, human embryos do not all start out female and then become male due the influence of testosterone. We start out with no sex organs at all -- just as we have no kidneys, liver or any other organs. Early embryos have no testes, ovaries, or external genitalia and are described as being in the "indifferent stage" until about 7 weeks (9 weeks to a doctor).

Human embryos BEGIN to develop male or female organs between days 50 and 70 after fertilization, after which they are partly differentiated and everything can continue to develop. The Y antigen gene on the Y chromosome induces the development of the testes. If there is no Y chromosome, the embryo normally develops as a female, although there are exceptions. For example, the over expression of a single gene (WNT-4) can result in an XY female. That is, an individual who is genetically male but fully female otherwise. At about 20 weeks, the testes begin to secrete testosterone, which induce the development of the penis and scrotum. Intersex individuals--in which one sex is not easily assigned-- make up about 1 in 2500 births.

None of which has anything to do with gender identity, which as I say, finishes developing at around age five.

Oh so very helpful. Yet another "thank you" is in order, so here it is: Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

So until a homosexual accepts the temptation and acts on his desires, he has not sinned.

Your question is a contradiction - until a person accepts the temptation for homosexual desires, it is not a sin. When the person agrees to become a homosexual, then sin has occurred because they have accepted those desires for themselves. A person is not a homosexual until the decision to accept the temptation has been accepted as their own desire.

Scripture is explicit that a sin occurs before the physical act has occurred.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

A person is not a homosexual until the decision to accept the temptation has been accepted as their own desire.

Someone sure hasn't been reading these posts!

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Someone sure hasn't been reading these posts!

Then by all means, take a few minutes and go back and read the ones that you missed.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I agree. Temptation is external. Once one accepts that temptation, and accepts it as their own desire / orientation, then, according to scripture, a sin has been committed even before the physical act.

Not sure how the "/" got slipped in between "desire" and "orientation" there. Get it out.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I agree. Temptation is external. Once one accepts that temptation, and accepts it as their own desire / orientation, then, according to scripture, a sin has been committed even before the physical act.

Why can't temptation come from within?

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Originally Posted by asking

So whether you are born gay or straight

Thank you for all your clarifications, asking. I was hoping you would show up.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Not sure how the "/" got slipped in between "desire" and "orientation" there. Get it out.

Who do you think you are giving orders to others as what they can and cannot think or post?

Methinks you should take a night away from the board and until you can come down off your high horse and perhaps get a more realistic view of yourself.

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Originally Posted by asking

Why can't temptation come from within?

It does not matter where you think that the original temptation occurred, the key point is whether the person accepts the desire / orientation for themselves.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

It does not matter where you think that the original temptation occurred, the key point is whether the person accepts the desire / orientation for themselves.

So no desire, no sin.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

So no desire, no sin.

If the person rejects the temptation for the homosexual desire / orientation, then they will not be guilty of the sin of homosexuality, and if they have no desire / orientation, then they will not commit the act and be guilty of the sin of committing the homosexual act either.

That does not mean that the person is sinless - they are not - we have all sinned (Rom 3:23). What I do not understand is why those who defend homosexuality treat it as a "special" sin that somehow differs from all other sins in the Bible. The fact is that whether a person is a homosexual or not, we have all sinned and all sins (other than the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit) are all equal. So to make homosexuality into a lesser sin (where only the act matters) is entirely wrong.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

If the person rejects the temptation for the homosexual desire / orientation, then they will not be guilty of the sin of homosexuality, and if they have no desire / orientation, then they will not commit the act and be guilty of the sin of committing the homosexual act either.

That does not mean that the person is sinless - they are not - we have all sinned (Rom 3:23). What I do not understand is why those who defend homosexuality treat it as a "special" sin that somehow differs from all other sins in the Bible. The fact is that whether a person is a homosexual or not, we have all sinned and all sins (other than the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit) are all equal. So to make homosexuality into a lesser sin (where only the act matters) is entirely wrong.

What is the difference between rejecting the desire and not acting on the desire? How does one a reject a desire other than by refusing to act on it?

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Originally Posted by Akoue

What is the difference between rejecting the desire and not acting on the desire? How does one a reject a desire other than by refusing to act on it?

If a man is tempted to lust after seeing an attractive woman, but rejects the desire to think of her with lust, then he have not committed the sin of lusting after her. That lustful thought must be accepted before this person would consider going the extra step of propositioning the girl into an adulterous act.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

If a man is tempted to lust after seeing an attractive woman, but rejects the desire to think of her with lust, then he have not committed the sin of lusting after her. That lustful thought must be accepted before this person would consider going the extra step of propositioning the girl into an adulterous act.

One can have a desire before being fully aware of onself having it. It's only if one embraces the desire that sin has been committed (this seems to be the force of the example you give). This suggests that the mere desire isn't itself sinful. One has to do something with that desire in order for a sin to be committed, by embracing it (lust) or acting on it (adultery). If this is true, then it's unclear to me how the mere having of a homosexual desire is sinful.

I got so wrapped up in the details of sexual differentiation that I didn't make an important distinction. Gender identity is what sex a person thinks they are. So a five year old decides, "I feel male" or "I feel female." Most of the time that corresponds to both their genetic and physical sex, but, unfortunately, not always. That's why some people grow up in a male body feeling they are female or the reverse.

Which sex you are attracted to is a separate, independent issue. I am not sure when that becomes fixed, but I have heard plenty of anecdotal accounts of kids being vaguely attracted to the opposite sex at quite young ages.

The earlier information comes from a textbook of human development and from research by a pediatric surgeon who does sex assignment surgery to intersex infants. It was not my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

One can have a desire before being fully aware of onself having it.

It is not a desire if one is unaware. If so you are saying that one can sin by lusting after a woman and not be aware that he is lusting after her.

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Originally Posted by asking

I got so wrapped up in the details of sexual differentiation that I didn't make an important distinction. Gender identity is what sex a person thinks they are. So a five year old decides, "I feel male" or "I feel female."

Like I said, you don't have kids do you?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Like I said, you don't have kids do you?

The earlier information comes from a textbook of human development and from research by a pediatric surgeon who does sex assignment surgery to intersex infants. It was not my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

It is not a desire if one is unaware. If so you are saying that one can sin by lusting after a woman and not be aware that he is lusting after her.

So you're saying the mere desire is itself already lust. If a desire pops into my head, even before I can refuse it, I've already sinned? I would have thought that in order for the desire to count as lust, I would have to affirm it in some way inwardly. But you appear to hold the view that the mere occurrence of the desire is already sinful. Is that right?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Like I said, you don't have kids do you?

Now THAT's ad hominem.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

So you're saying the mere desire is itself already lust. If a desire pops into my head, even before I can refuse it, I've already sinned?

I think that you are mistaking temptation for the lust itself.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Now THAT's ad hominem.

Not at all.

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Originally Posted by asking

The earlier information comes from a textbook of human development and from research by a pediatric surgeon who does sex assignment surgery to intersex infants. It was not my opinion.

Well, I guess that all kids under 5 that I have ever known, including myself must be exceptions.

I note that you did not address my point directly.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Well, I guess that all kids under 5 that I have ever known, including myself must be exceptions.

I note that you did not address my point directly.

I don't think my reproductive status is relevant. What is YOUR point?

Exceptions in what way? Were you sexually active at 3?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I think that you are mistaking temptation for the lust itself.

And I think you are conflating desire and sinful desire. The latter are typed not according the object of the desire but according to the attitude of the subject toward the desire. It is a subject's response to the desire, once it emerges, that either is or is not sinful.

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Originally Posted by asking

I don't think my reproductive status is relevant. What is YOUR point?

Exceptions in what way? Were you sexually active at 3?

Are you now saying that you include sexual activity as an essential part of gender identity?

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Originally Posted by Akoue

And I think you are conflating desire and sinful desire.

So you are trying to tell me that one can have a desire for sin without a sinful desire.

I guess that Jesus must have gotten it wrong.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Ah, but you're trying to be rational. Can't allow that to happen.

What you say here makes me wonder why Tom doesn't want to say whether he takes the literal meaning of the Bible to be inerrant and infallible. He knows that if he says yes, then Ps.104.5 is waiting for him (it says the earth doesn't move) and he knows that if he says no, then that means the meaning of lots of passages that he wants to read literally is up for grabs.

It's just never a good idea to turn the Bible into an object of worship. That too is a kind of idolatry.

I'm nothing if I'm not rational. That is what gets me into a lot of trouble with religious people and also the people on another topic about séances and making contact with evil spirits. I just have too much darn logic and rationale:rolleyes:.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Are you now saying that you include sexual activity as an essential part of gender identity?

I am saying that if you have a point to make about gender identity, make it.

I have no idea what you were attempting to imply by stating that I must not have children.

Edit: (Well, except for the totally obvious implication that you don't think I know what I'm talking about and this is all just my opinion. As I said, it's not my opinion but the statement of an expert in this field. The surgeon said that he wished he could wait to do gender assignment surgery until kids were old enough to tell him what sex they thought they were--about age 5--because in a significant percentage of cases, surgeons choose the wrong sex. The make a child "female" and the child grows up not knowing why they they feel male. Or the reverse. He said the surgery needs to be done early though because the family (and society) cannot handle not having a specific sex.)

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Originally Posted by Tj3

You don't have kids, do you?

I have kids and Askings post makes perfect sense to me.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Not at all.

Why do you keep asking if Asking has kids. What kind of difference would that make? I don't get the connection.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Are you now saying that you include sexual activity as an essential part of gender identity?

Why do people keep answering questions with questions?