[QUOTE][QUOTE=michealb][QUOTE=sassyT]

There is a difference between you thinking you know and an all knowing being knowing for sure. Your niece is able to exercise free will because there is the uncertainty that she will choose something else even if the second choice is highly unlikely it's still a possible choice. If the outcome is known for certain there is no element of choice because the outcome was always known. [/QUOTE

Come on michealb, I think you are running out of points to make. I don't see how my knowing something before it happens has anything to do with the freedom to choose. Just because I know that my niece is not going to choose to eat stinking dead mice over a chocolate sundae does not mean I am somehow controlling her mind and have influence on her choice. Her choise is completely independent to my forknowlege. Likewise Just because God possesses forknowlege does not mean he has control over our choices. Our ability to choose is independent from the fact that God already knows.

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]An all knowing being would know before you did that you were going to make that choice, so if he knew before you did that you were going to make a choice and he set up the circumstances of you making that choice, then you really had no choice to begin with.

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There is nothing factual about what you just said. You are drawing the conclution that Just because God knows what is going to happen then that mean he must have orchastrated the circumstances. This is circular reasoning and pure speculation on your part.

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Your example with the kids is also different because you don't have control over every aspect of their creation. If you were all powerful and all knowing you could make kids that didn't disobey you or at the very least you would know to keep them away from your tasty apples.

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That where free will comes in. God did not create robots. He gave us an opportunity to choose good or evil. We chose evil and so we are living the consequence.

As the point of free will is being discussed...

I believe that the Almighty is All Knowing and He gives us choice between right and wrong.

By giving us free will, we have the choice but making a choice is hard because there is the negative influence of the Satan(Devil) involved and human hearts sway to suggestions from both good and evil.
The Almighty wishes for us to persevere even in hardships and bad circumstances and for us to stand for all that is just.
The Almighty is All knowing in that He alone knows everything that has ever happened or will ever happen,this does not mean that He will stop every person from doing evil the moment he does them, but there are different circumstances that work up to people realising their mistakes and correcting them.
Some circumstances maybe natural like environmental changes or it could come from other people and their behaviour or help.

As a believer in an All Knowing Almighty, I believe that the free will we practice in this world is leading us to whatever is there in the Hereafter. The Almighty knows where we are heading but we don't and it is up to to us to search and live towards eternal peace.



Regarding evolution-
I always believe that if the process of evolution did take place then it is the Almighty who made the process happen in however many years it took.
I believe all of us,all living things on earth came from the same source,the Almighty Creator.

I won't say I am a 100% believer in evolution but I am fascinated by the process of how records of the past are fossilised and preserved for so many years and that we are able to study them.
I have actually seen a fossilised tree and it is amazing how the trunk of tree of wood changes over long period into something different.

I still await further research into the process of evolution,but until then I think we are reaping benefits of scientific research in so many other ways.

As I always say... reading up on scientific findings make me firmer in my belief than ever.:)

Well put, firm.

With regard to free will: I am not a Christian, but this is what I was always under the impression that the Christian standing was (at least, Christian Reformed :)

I was told that God gave us free will so our choices would have weight. He created man to have faith and companionship, but if he only made man follow in his steps without any choice of right or wrong, the reward of eternal life wouldn't be much of a reward, and more just something everyone was automatically given. We have right and wrong, good and evil, so that decisions have weight and we can be rewarded for doing right.

As I don't believe in heaven or hell, this doesn't have much bearing on my will to do right or wrong, but it's an interesting prospect.

The difference is between you thinking you know and definitely knowing. If you were 100% certain that the child would take the cake. Then the child isn't being given a choice because no matter what the child does you know the outcome. How can you have free will if the outcome has been determined before you were even born to make the choice. It's like saying the characters in a movie have free will.(maybe the fact that people don't understand this is why people yell at the screen in movie theaters?)

If a all knowning being is the first cause as creationist like to say. That first event is the cause of all other events and since he knew how it would turn out before hand he could have adjusted his first cause to change the series of events. If through your actions something bad happens it's still your fault, if you knew that what the results of that action were going to be.

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there is nothing factual about what you just said. This is circular reasoning and pure speculation on your part.

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Again I will tell you I can't give you facts about a being that doesn't exist. All I can do is give you the logic behind why it doesn't work they way you think it does. And you complaining about my circular reasoning is very funny coming from someone who's entire argument consists of "god did it, cause he is god"

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Originally Posted by buzzman

I agree with your statement regarding the thought that "Don't say that everyones God is the right God", because this is just not realistic regardless of the faith it would take to believe it. There is only one God. He is the Father, Son & Holy Spirit as one being. He is the alpha and omega. In him we live and breathe and have our being. We are made in his image, and our sin separates us from Him physically. We are the only beings made on this earth that have a spirit. The spirit is a part of us given by God that we may commune with Him if we call upon Jesus to forgive our sins so that we may be alive (Born Again) in spirit. This is considered to be a second birth, as all are "dead" in spirit until the renewal that can only come through Grace by forgiveness of sins. To begin to understand God means to understand what it is to be Holy. This can only be understood once the Spirit has been renewed. The Bible says that No one has seen God, No one has seen His face. We cannot comprehend what it must be to be that Holy, because People by nature are born sinful. There can be NO SIN in the presence of God. Something MUST be done to eradicate this sin. If our sin is not forgiven, it simply stays with us, therefore separating & keeping us from enjoying God's future physical relationship with Mankind. Of course there is one catch. One must acknowledge the validity of the Bible and make a conscience decision to believe in faith. This is a personal decision and will never be pushed by God, because he wants people to accept it freely. Be careful though, there are frauds out there. 1John4 says that Only Spirits that acknowledge Jesus is God in the Flesh........ is of God. Many false religions claim Jesus as a prophet and do not give His the status of God in the flesh. This is how you divide the deceiving churches.

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Praise God for a mighty worrior like you! This man hit the nail right on the head! He has the spirit of truth in him, which comes from the Father.

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Originally Posted by leeseeandjoel

Praise God for a mighty worrior like you! This man hit the nail right on the head!! He has the spirit of truth in him, which comes from the Father.

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Who's father? My father is invisible and rides a great winged horse up in the galaxies. He will come back when bixor rises from the sea and fires will rain down upon this 300 year old earth (I'll bet you thought it was 6000 yrs. Old, ha-ha). Then all who believe will be given party favors and ascend to be with him forever. I know this because my book says so. I pity all you worshiping the wrong god. You will be sent to nests where fire ants will eat your eyes for eternity. It's in my book!

[QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by michealb

The difference is between you thinking you know and definitely knowing. If you were 100% certain that the child would take the cake. Then the child isn't being given a choice because no matter what the child does you know the outcome. How can you have free will if the outcome has been determined before you were even born to make the choice

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This is where you are getting it all wrong... the outcone is NOT pre-determinded it is just simply known. That is the difference. Just because I know for a fact that my niece will choose cake over stinky dead mice does not mean I her choice is predetermined, it just means her choice is just known before hand. Your rational about this doesn't make any sense.

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If a all knowning being is the first cause as creationist like to say. That first event is the cause of all other events and since he knew how it would turn out before hand he could have adjusted his first cause to change the series of events. If through your actions something bad happens it's still your fault, if you knew that what the results of that action were going to be.

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You are connecting things that are mutually exclusive and have nothing to do with one another. Knowing what will happen does not mean that we are preventing or causing that thing to happen. The sun will rise tomorrow. I know.. But I am not causing it to rise nor am I preventing it from rising by knowing that it will happen.
God knowing what we are going to do does not mean that we can't do something else. It means that God simply knows what we have chosen to do ahead of time. Our freedom is not restricted by God's foreknowledge; our freedom is simply realized ahead of time by God. I don't know why you are finding something so simple hard to wrap around your head... lol

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Again I will tell you I can't give you facts about a being that doesn't exist.

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Yes, He does not exist according to your "faith" not fact.

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All I can do is give you the logic behind why it doesn't work they way you think it does.

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Speak for yourself here, you are the one who is struggling with wraping your head around the concept of omniscience and free will. I have already demonstrated that forknowlege is independent from free will with my sun rising analogy.

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And you complaining about my circular reasoning is very funny coming from someone who's entire argument consists of "god did it, cause he is god"

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I don't assume naturalism so I am not restricted from relying on supernatural explanations as you are.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

Who's father? My father is invisible and rides a great winged horse up in the galaxies.

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Really..? I though your father was that famous one cell guy who crawled out of that primordial vegetable soup and morphed into everything we see today. :confused:

[QUOTE=sassyT]

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Speak for yourself here, you are the one who is struggling with wraping your head around the concept of omniscience and free will. I have already demonstrated that forknowlege is independent from free will with my sun rising analogy...

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Actually, he's arguing that a being, by definition, can't be omnipotent and omniscient. Read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, he explains it quite well. Or look up the definitions, you'll probably figure it out.

Ok to help sassyt out here a little bit... Yes there is a God. I hear talk about Fee wll, destiny and predetermined etc. .
Just because God is all knowing doesn't mean that somehow this over rules the fact that he has given us free will. Just because he knows the choices we will make doen't mean he is making them for us! We as people are always straying from the will of God this is why he asks us to obey him and do his will and to call upon him and have FAITH and TRUST in him. Yes God has an oringinal plan for our lives, but we do not always chose this route.

I hear the voice of the good sheperd, I hear my Fathers voice and the voice of a stranger I will not fallow. I roll my works upon the Lord. I commit and trust them wholly to him. He will cause my thoughts to become agreable to his will, and so shall my plans be established and succeed. (John10:27, Proverbs 16:3)

Hear now, you house of David! It is not enough to try the patience of human beings? Will you try the patients of my God also? Therefore the Lord will give you a sign; the virgin will be with child and give birth to a son and we will call him Immanuel.(Isiah 7:13-14)

God will never make us want him or want to know him, however he will put a calling on our hearts to want to. He wants us to want to love him and know him this is why we have free will. He is our creater and made a plan for each one of our lives we do however have a choice to pick up our cross and fallow him.
God also knows we are "fallen" and our flesh and sin separates us from him, he is a Holly perfect God and no sin can be in his presents, this is why he sent his son yet while we were still sinners to, to save us because he loved us that much and wants a personal relationship with us. So when we accept Jesus as our Lord and savior, we are covered in the

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Originally Posted by leeseeandjoel

Just because he knows the choices we will make doen't mean he is making them for us! ... Yes God has an oringinal plan for our lives, but we do not always chose this route.

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So god knows all the choices we make and has a plan for our life, i.e.. Our life is pre-determined by god, but we do not always choose this route. Something is wrong here.

[QUOTE=jillianleab]

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Originally Posted by sassyT

Actually, he's arguing that a being, by definition, can't be omnipotent and omniscient. Read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, he explains it quite well. Or look up the definitions, you'll probably figure it out.

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They should re-name the book The Richard Dawkins Delusion. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

our life is pre-determined by god

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No. If that were true, we'd be puppets. We're not.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

No. If that were true, we'd be puppets. We're not.

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But I hear that all the time, that god knows our every move, when someone dies it's "part of god's great plan". These people are wrong then?

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

god has a plan for our life

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I watched my sons grow and mature, enjoyed seeing personalities blossom and character develop. Each child is different, with his own talents and abilities and uniqueness. I had a plan in mind for each of them, but their own choices took them in other directions.

Its kind of like that movie Next... he can see into the future based on the decisions he thinks he is going to make... but as soon as he changes his mind and decides to make a different decision in the future, the future changes... although he can still see that new future coming..

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

But I hear that all the time, that god knows our every move, when someone dies it's "part of god's great plan". These people are wrong then?

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Does "god knows our every move" equal "god determines our every move"? And be careful that the "god knows our every move" doesn't sound like Santa knowing when we've been good or bad and is keeping a list.

The "part of god's great plan" annoys me. "God's great plan" needs to be defined. What is your guess?

And those at funerals who say "it was god's will" creep me out.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

The "part of god's great plan" annoys me. "God's great plan" needs to be defined. What is your guess?

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I have no need to guess, I put god and santa in the same grouping. I'm in charge of my life, no one else. I agree with you about the kids and our plans for them. It just creeps my out when I hear the rhetoric as voiced by leeseeandjoel, it's very contradictory.

Ok to help sassyt out here a little bit... Yes there is a God. I hear talk about Fee will, destiny and predetermined etc. .
Just because God is all knowing doesn't mean that somehow this over rules the fact that he has given us free will. Just because he knows the choices we will make doesn't mean he is making them for us! We as people are always straying from the will of God this is why he asks us to obey him and do his will and to call upon him and have FAITH and TRUST in him. Yes God has an original plan for our lives, but we do not always chose this route.

I hear the voice of the good Shepard, I hear my Fathers voice and the voice of a stranger I will not fallow. I roll my works upon the Lord. I commit and trust them wholly to him. He will cause my thoughts to become agreeable to his will, and so shall my plans be established and succeed. (John10:27, Proverbs 16:3)

Hear now, you house of David! It is not enough to try the patience of human beings? Will you try the patients of my God also? Therefore the Lord will give you a sign; the virgin will be with child and give birth to a son and we will call him Immanuel.(Isiah 7:13-14)

God will never make us want him or want to know him, however he will put a calling on our hearts to want to. He wants us to want to love him and know him this is why we have free will. He is our creator and made a plan for each one of our lives we do however have a choice to pick up our cross and follow him.
God also knows we are "fallen" and our flesh and sin separates us from him, he is a Holly perfect God and no sin can be in his presents, this is why he sent his son yet while we were still sinners to, to save us because he loved us that much and wants a personal relationship with us. So when we accept Jesus as our Lord and savior, we are covered in the blood of Jesus and he no longer sees our sin.

He who does not take his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me. He who finds his life will loose it, and he who looses his life for My sake will find it. Matt 10:38,39
He is the Alpha Omega beginning and the end, who is, who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
The big bang theory just doesn't make any sense what so ever. Firstly, and mostly, because how beautifully complex and intricate the human body is made and everything else in this world, for that matter. It most certianly didn't come from micro organisms and such and if it did... were did these things come from? If this were true, than where do miracles come from and super natural happenings? Dreams, visions, souls, spirits and mostly LOVE. All of which can not be explained simply by the physical alone. Another question why do you put your faith in Scientists and theologist, historian etc, all of whom are men, and prone to mistakes and these are simply their hypothesis anyhow,their educated GUESS? They haven proven the Bible to be true over and over again, so It seems like it takes a lot more faith to not believe in our God than it does to believe. So to call us who do illogical, or irrational or uneducated is ignorant in itself. I guess they say ignorance is bliss, but that only lasts so long...

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I have no need to guess, I put god and santa in the same grouping. I'm in charge of my life, no one else. I agree with you about the kids and our plans for them. It just creeps my out when I hear the rhetoric as voiced by leeseeandjoel, it's very contradictory.

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I think one of the big turnoffs is the over-verbalization, the over-Gospeling. There are ways and there are ways for a Christian to approach a non-Christian to interest him in Christianity. Whomping him over the head with lots of words isn't one of them. Reminds me of my mother who used to say to my dad, a minister, "Just because you have a captive audience on Sunday morning is no reason to have a long sermon." She threatened to have a trapdoor installed in the pulpit, so if he started repeating himself or otherwise began boring the congregation, my mom would push a button to open the trapdoor and cause him to slide on a chute to the church basement.