What will become of the people who have rejected the gospel of peace? Will they live in eternal death forever in the lake of fire?
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What will become of the people who have rejected the gospel of peace? Will they live in eternal death forever in the lake of fire?
That depends. Is God the merciful caring God, father of all, that Christians claim he is? If so, could he condemn any of his children to hell?
Are you a parent? If your kids don't listen to you, do what you say, would you condemn them? Would you be that vengeful?
I can't be sure because of the limits of my human brain and it's inability to see or understand things outside of time.
I died once and they revived me. I went to the white light and the peace was beyond understanding. There was NO human negative emotion. Pure joy and happiness.
Still I am not sure what is beyond this body's life.
My best friend died last year and that really set my heart and brain thinking about what comes next, if anything.
Can I cope not being in my comfortable skin? Will I see my friend and others who have gone before us?
I am a Hindu and I have to put all of this in God's hands because I am overwhelmed with the whole concept of a spiritual life and eternal life.
Alty,
The problem with your argument is this.. God NEVER sends anyone to hell, a person sends himself there by rejecting God's free gift. You are correct in understanding that God is loving and wants no one to enter hell. Therefore he sent HIS ONLY SON to take our place so no one ever has to be doomed to an eternity in utter darkness without God.
While God is indeed loving and merciful he is also HOLY and JUST. He cannot be one attribute without the others. Therefore someone MUST pay for sins because of his awesome HOLINESS. Human beings cannot stand in his presence without being justified.
We aren't HOLY... we don't really even completely understand what it means. So we as parents can overlook disobidience and sin. God CANNOT. When you understand that or at least attempt to, maybe the gospel will make more sense. I don't know...
Curtis,
According to the bible in Revelation anyone who rejects the gospel is cast in the lake of fire forever and ever.
Well put Classy... we'll always get the wrong answer if we try and rationalize and figure things out as humans... but if we simply rely on the revealed word of God, there's no way around it. Of course some people will never like the answer that has already been provided by God in His word and they'll try and find a way around it.
I think God is bigger and more loving than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
WG,
I didn't say it , the bible did. So then are you a universalist?
God is bigger and more loving than we could ever know but he has made us with free will. We ALL have a choice and if you choose to reject him ( the death of Jesus on the cross who was the perfect sinless sacrifice to pay for all of our sins) than Romans 3:23 applies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
For the wages of sin is ( eternal death) but the gift of God is eternal life. Eternal death means permanent separation from God in Hell.
God loved us enough that he sent the ONLY sacrifice tha was good enough to pay for ALL of the sins of mankind. That was Jesus. Jesus was born as a man but lived a perfect life with no sin. He was falsely accused and was tortured and killed because of OUR sin. Jesus willingly subjected himself to this because he loves us that much.
But his free gift is only available in this life. After you die , you will be forever condemned to hell if you have made the choice to reject him. No sin can enter into his presence and only those who fully accept Jesus as their Saviour are then given the free gift of eternal life through salvation.
God doesn't want that any should perish but with the free will we are given , it is truly our choice to accept or reject.
There is no cost , you don't have to donate money , you don't ask a priest for forgiveness ( only Jesus can forgive sins) , the Pope has no special relationship to God anymore than any other person does. You don't have to worship or pray to an object made of metal or stone , you don't have to publish anything in the newspaper .
All you have to do is acknowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that he died on the cross as God to pay for our sins. Accept him as your Saviour and Lord and then follow his teachings and commands found thought the bible.
Faith and works go hand in hand but faith comes first. Simply saying some words without meaning them won't do you a but of good. You have to admit you are a sinner ( we all are ) , acknowledge that Jesus paid for your sins and ask him to come into your life and forgive you.
It is that easy. But it must be sincere and not just " fire insurance". For someone to repeat those words and contine in their life of sin as though NOTHNG happened is a sign that they were not sincere.
God is loving and merciful. That is an amazing truth, and actually, it is the reason we HAVE the Gospel. He provided a way for us to go to Heaven. But we must remember, He is also holy and just. When someone commits a crime, they go to court and are sentenced to a punishment, right? If the person you loved most was murdered, wouldn't you want them thrown in prison forever?
Well, the Scriptures say "by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin". Man disobeyed the laws of God... basically committing spiritual suicide. God is the Judge of our court case. Through His mercy, He provides a way for us to live eternally with Him in Heaven, but if we reject the Gospel of Peace, he must do what any righteous, just Judge would do - punish the wrong-doer.
So, yes. If we reject God's Word, and refuse to accept it before death, then we will be banished to the lake of fire forever.
It is a fearful truth for the unsaved, and a sobering truth for the Christian who does not witness.
No, but I'm not sure what hell really is. Revelation (singular) was written for a particular problem which now is past. And is God still revealing His will to us?Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Reject, yes. Accept, no. I'm with Martin Luther: "“I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me through the Gospel, enlightened me by his gifts, and sanctified and preserved me in the true faith."Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcsap9213
I would rather put my faith in the word of God than that of a great man.
While th Holy Spirit does draw man to God , man still has the free will to accept or reject. God does not require that we accept him. But , there is a heavy penalty to pay for rejection.
Hebrews 9:27. It s appointed unto man once to die ( no reincarnation) and than the judgment.
The Christian will only be judged on the works that he did or didn't do as a Christian. There is no danger of them going to hell as they have already been saved by the blood of Jesus. Jesus paid for them to get not heaven with his blood sacrifice.
The unsaved cannot mke that claim and will be judged based on ALL of the suns they committed during their life but one sin alone is enough to send them to eternal hell. Some may say that God is too loving to do that but he WAS so living that he sent Jesus to die for you and you just said no. God demands perfection to be in his presence , which can only be achieved through Jesus Christ paying for us.
Those who don't accept Jesus will have no claim for eternal life and will be sent off to the Lake of Fire forever.
It is not too late to repent of your sins and accept Jesus during your life but don't delay. You never know when your life will end and it will be too late.
WG,
According to Revelation ( I never put an s on it) it is only after the great white throne that people are thrown into the Lake of Fire. The great white throne judgement has not taken place because before it takes place, the Lord Jesus needs to return to earth and set up his earthly kingdom for 1000 years. None of these things have happened and are future events. I do not believe the passages the speak of these events are symbolic of a problem of long ago now resolved.
All I know for sure is I don't want to be in a place known as hell, the lake of fire or separated without God. Jesus spoke more about hell than anyone. Whether one believes it is actual or not it isn't a place that Jesus spoke fondly about. However I do believe it is a literal place.
As a site editor, I had removed the "s" on "Revelation" in one of your previous posts. I should have quoted you before I edited. This was the post --Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Quote:
Curtis,
According to the bible in Revelation anyone who rejects the gospel is cast in the lake of fire forever and ever.
Last edited by Wondergirl; Today at 04:15 PM.
Revelation almost missed being put into the canon. The message it gives was for a certain time and place. I don't believe in the theologies that have gotten whipped up around the Last Day regarding a millennium, etc.Quote:
it is only after the great white throne that people are thrown into the Lake of Fire.
And it might be here and now.Quote:
However I do believe it is a literal place.
Isaiah 55:8. For my thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways.
While it may seem like the book of Revelation may have barely made it , God knew in advance how everything would work out. It's his plan , his creation and his world. We cannot imagine that anyone could create such a world , have a plan for man that every single person could have the opportunity for eternal life and cause certain things to happen to point us in the right direction.
Our finite minds will eventually realize and understand that this entire world and universe was no accident or big bang. God doesn't demand anything. He freely offers to all of us the same deal. Accept his loving offer or strike out on your own without him. There is no middle ground. You either accept God or you reject him.
Whichever way you choose to go will have eternal results.
So the question is... Eternity... smoking or non-smoking.
As I said before.. .Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcsap9213
And what will you do with all the mentally ill and mentally handicapped people who haven't had the wherewithal to even consider God in their lives?
You say this a lot, but it isn't strictly true. What it actually means is, your particular interpretation of the Bible said it. You are fond of interpreting Revelation literally, something it was never meant to be, so the actual issue is this: when we take John's writings the way HE meant them to be taken, the GWT and lake of fire are metaphors, not literal events or places. Metaphors for what? That's the big question. But as usual, taking apocalyptic literature and trying to interpret it literally just leads to a mess.Quote:
Originally Posted by ;
The Bible does not explicitly say but...
Nehemiah 8:2. An Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both men and women and all that could hear with understanding.
This verse covers a Chief Priest who called the people ( a lot if them) together for instruction from God. ( the law). Note how the last sentence indicates only those that could hear with understanding were compelled to attend.
I think knowing the loving kindness of God who made man in his own image , is shown to exclude those who could not hear with understanding. This would include unborn children up to the age of accountability ( which is not a specific number as thus would vary by the individual ) but would never be attainable for someone who by reason of physical or mental incapacity.
Certainly , a person who is not of sound mind cannot legally enter into a contract , cannot plead guilty in court , cannot be allowed to do a lot of things due to their condition. And in some cases , are not held criminally responsible for crimes.
I don't think it is a giant leap to think God is any different. God created them and only HE knows whether they have th ability to understand. God is love but God is just. He wants nobody to perish.
2 Peter 3:9. God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
If there was a really good , kind , fully understanding person as a judge , you would expect them to have compassion on someone ( adult or child) who didn't have the mental capacity to commit a crime.
God is really , really good , loving beyond all belief , kind yet demanding of perfection of those who chose to reject him. You would expect him to not condemn a baby or mentally challenged individual to hell because they didn't have the capacity to accept or reject him. And you would be right.
So Jeffrey Dahmer and Adam Lanza and Ted Bundy and Richard Speck will be in heaven.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcsap9213
That's not what it says. You need to read a little further, specifically to verse 8. Ezra and the others not only read it, but they translated it, probably into Aramaic, for those who didn't understand Hebrew. This included most everybody, because the call went out to both men and women and all who could understand. "Understand" in this context refers to the language, not the content, because the Torah was in Hebrew and most people weren't fluent in that language any more, having adopted Aramaic during the Exile. Both those who could understand Hebrew and those who couldn't were "compelled to attend"; verse 3 repeats the formula "men and women and those who could understand." That passage isn't going to be of any help in answering WG's question.Quote:
Originally Posted by ;
All of these guys lived into adulthood. All but Lanza held jobs ( of some sort) and worked as well as participated in society.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Having some form of mental illness does not mean they can't be held accountable for their actions. What they did took planning , work and then they either fled ( consciousness of guilt) or in Lanzas case , committed suicide when the police were entering the building.
God will be the final judge and already knows their mindset. I do not believe any of them would be able to claim insanity as their defense. Not in an earthly courtroom and most certainly not in a heavenly one.
You're assuming demonic influence has less to do with it than mental illness? Those men knew what they were doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
While I can't disagree with what you said... understand certainly would have more than one meaning. Would a child who knew but a few words of either language have understood ? Nope.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
Demonic influence? Check back with me in heaven about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by hauntinghelper
Dave,
So you don't believe there is going to be a great white throne judgement or do you believe it has already taken place?
Perhaps, but that has nothing to do with the passage you cited. In that specific context, we know what "understand" meant, and no, it didn't have more than one meaning. There's no need. So I'm not sure what your point is.Quote:
Originally Posted by ;
WG,
If hell is here and now, then why did Jesus have to die? I mean really? What is the point if he wasn't saving us from an eternity apart from God.
A literal one? No, I don't. Again, that's not how Revelation was meant to be understood, and trying to make it literal does violence to it. Has it already taken place? I don't know. It depends on what it's a metaphor for. There are lots of ideas about that, and I don't know which (if any) is correct. Nor do I care. The end of the book says we win. That's good enough for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by ;
He was saving us for an eternity WITH God.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Very good answers... God is Love for sure, and his will is that no one perishes, but all to come unto repentance. Yet, every day people are dying without Christ.
Death is only a temporary thing, as the last enemy to be destroyed will be death. Death is going to be cast into the lake of fire along with all of Satans angels, and all those who reject the free gift of salvation. If death will be destroyed then what could possibly worse then death? There is something much worse, and that is knowing the truth, but not being able to experience the joy, and comfort it brings. Have you ever in your life knew something you knew was right to do, but you did not do it? And after ward you suffered the consequences of your inactions, and every time you thought about it, or saw something that reminded you of it you would kick yourself or wish you had done it? That is called torment... Thank God when we miss up we can confess our sin before God, and forgives us, then cleanses us from all unrighteousness.
There is a day coming in which every knee shall bow, and ever tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father. Right now when someone says that they become born again, but in that time when every body confesses Jesus as Lord it will be to late! Condemnation will not come from God, but every ones own conscience will torment them for not doing what they knew was right. That is the outcome of all who reject the truth today.
Curtis
My Indian friends will convert to Christianity as quickly as you convert to Hinduism. For them, Christianity is not right and their consciences are at peace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis Wilson
Lets ask them after they learn the real truth of who Jesus Christ is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
You're wielding His name like a cudgel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis Wilson
I think that is what we are suppose to do... right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Ummmm, no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis Wilson
WG
Well if many good people of other faiths don't have to accept Jesus as their savior... it sounds more like universalisim than christianity to me.
By the way.. thanks for fixing my post. You may do that ANYtime. Forgot to tell you that. :)
That's not what I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
I correct only egregious spelling errors.
WG,
Egregious? Lol OK
Well from what I can understand from your posts you do not believe a devout Hindu needs to accept Jesus in order to be with the Father. What am I not understanding?
Ok. Let me ask you this.. What must a person do to be saved?
What does being saved mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
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