Ask Me Help Desk - John 6:44 Jesus says You can only come to me if you are drawn to me by the father.

John 6:44 Jesus says You can only come to me if you are drawn to me by the father.

In John 6:44 Jesus says" You can only come to me if you are drawn to me by my father" In early greek Bibles he said" You can only come to me if you are selected to come to me by my father" Earlier in John Jesus said"You can only go to the FATHER through me. Both of these passages would indicate some will not be drawn/selected by the Father to go to Jesus and therefore can not go to the Father(?) Take for instance someone who blasphemes THE HOLY SPIRIT or someone never introduced to Jesus(which does not hardly happen anymore). This would bear out Predestination according to Calvin, Martin Luther,and St. Augustine(in his final years)when he said Man lost his free will when Adam disobeyed God the FATHER and saddled us with "original sin"which overcomes our will. Therefore my question is "Isn't only by GOD's GRACE THAT THOSE WHO ARE SAVED BY HIM and those who who ARE NOT GIVEN HIS GRACE ARE PREDESTINED TO BE DAMMED and there is nothing we can do or say that will earn HIS GRACE. THIS IS PREDESTINATION

What futility! That we have no free will after all but are just puppets in the hands of a vengefull God. No wonder the Catholic Church does nothing to lead non- catholics to Jesus, after all they are all predestined to be damned. I cannot and will not believe in such a doctrine

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Originally Posted by paraclete

What futility! That we have no free will after all but are just puppets in the hands of a vengefull God. No wonder the Catholic Church does nothing to lead non- catholics to Jesus, afterall they are all predestined to be damned. I cannot and will not believe in such a doctrine

Look in your History Book St.Augustine and Martin Luther were BISHOPS in the Roman Catholic Church. St. Augustine's acceptance of FREE WILL in his confessions was THE SAME AS GALILEO acceptance of THE UNIVERSE revolves around the EARTH,as we know both the RC church and he went back to the TRUTH,which they knew all the time.But GALILO had to wait until the RC Church was ready to admit the truth first. By the way I believe in the HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH even though I was brought up in the ANGLO CATHOLIC CHURCH . I Believe IN THE HOLY NICENE CREED (NOTE: NOT ROMAN,NOT ANGLICAN, NOT ORTHODOX ,BUT JUST THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH ,THE WAY IT WAS IN THE Beginning. MAYBE YOU SHOULD LOOK FOR THE TRUTH(HISTORY IS A GOOD PLACE TO START ) instead of waiting for organized religion to finally return to the TRUTH (SEE ABOVE)

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Originally Posted by rebel1st

look in your history book st.augustine and martin luther were bishops in the roman catholic church. St. Augustine's acceptance of free will in his confessions was the same as galileo acceptance of the universe revolves around the earth,as we know both the rc church and he went back to the truth,which they knew all the time.but galilo had to wait untill the rc church was ready to admit the truth first. By the way i beleive in the holy catholic church even though i was brought up in the anglo catholic church . I beleive in the holy nicene creed (note: Not roman,not anglican, not orthodox ,but just the holy catholic church ,the way it was in the begining. Maybe you should look for the truth(history is a good place to start ) instead of waiting for organized religion to finally return to the truth (see above)

You might also check holy scripture.if you believe that as I do

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

Look in your History Book

I don't need a history book to know the truth, I look to Jesus

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

Look in your History Book St.Augustine and Martin Luther were BISHOPS in the Roman Catholic Church. St. Augustine's acceptance of FREE WILL in his confessions was THE SAME AS GALILEO acceptance of THE UNIVERSE revolves around the EARTH,as we know both the RC church and he went back to the TRUTH,which they knew all the time.But GALILO had to wait untill the RC Church was ready to admit the truth first. By the way I beleive in the HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH even though I was brought up in the ANGLO CATHOLIC CHURCH . I BELEIVE IN THE HOLY NICENE CREED (NOTE: NOT ROMAN,NOT ANGLICAN, NOT ORTHODOX ,BUT JUST THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH ,THE WAY IT WAS IN THE BEGINING. MAYBE YOU SHOULD LOOK FOR THE TRUTH(HISTORY IS A GOOD PLACE TO START ) instead of waiting for organized religion to finally return to the TRUTH (SEE ABOVE)

I suggest you read St. Augustine more closely. He is thoroughly Catholic and believes in the Catholic doctrine of predestination.

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

In John 6:44 Jesus says" You can only come to me if you are drawn to me by my father" In early greek Bibles he said" You can only come to me if you are selected to come to me by my father" Earlier in John Jesus said"You can only go to the FATHER through me. Both of these passages would indicate some will not be drawn/selected by the Father to go to Jesus and therefore can not go to the Father(?) Take for instance someone who blasphemes THE HOLY SPIRIT or someone never introduced to Jesus(which does not hardly happen anymore). This would bear out Predestination according to Calvin, Martin Luther,and St. Augustine(in his final years)when he said Man lost his free will when Adam disobeyed God the FATHER and saddled us with "original sin"which overcomes our will.

You're mixing apples and oranges. The fact that some will disobey God is an affirmation of free will. It is because they freely chose to disobey
God that they were condemned.

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Therefore my question is "Isn't only by GOD's GRACE THAT THOSE WHO ARE SAVED BY HIM and those who who ARE NOT GIVEN HIS GRACE ARE PREDESTINED TO BE DAMMED and there is nothing we can do or say that will earn HIS GRACE. THIS IS PREDESTINATION

It is by God's grace, but not by God's grace alone.

Scripture says:
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

You see, faith is the grace by which we are saved. By this I don't mean to insinuate faith ALONE. However, faith is a grace and it is a gift of God. And without faith we won't be saved.

But faith is a particular kind of grace which must be exercised. And faith is exercised in the will. Therefore we must will to exercise faith and when we do we combine with faith our cooperation which takes the form of works. And therefore Scripture says:
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

You're mixing apples and oranges. The fact that some will disobey God is an affirmation of free will. It is because they freely chose to disobey
God that they were condemned.

It is by God's grace, but not by God's grace alone.

Scripture says:
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

You see, faith is the grace by which we are saved. By this I don't mean to insinuate faith ALONE. However, faith is a grace and it is a gift of God. And without faith we won't be saved.

But faith is a particular kind of grace which must be exercised. And faith is exercised in the will. Therefore we must will to exercise faith and when we do we combine with faith our cooperation which takes the form of works. And therefore Scripture says:
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You may be right But if faith is GOD's Gift then we can only have it if GOD gives it to us.We can only exercise it if GOD gives it to us. Therefore it is not of our will but of GOD'S Will.Therefore it also follows that only GOD has FREE WILL and our will is subservient to HIS WILL. From this it follows the only TRUE FREE WILL IS GOD'S WILL. The above also can be discerned by the following line of thought. The choices man makes are the product of his mind and makes up his will. His mind is created and given to him by GOD. Man's thinking is shaped by his environment which also comes from GOD.Therefore the way he thinks and acts comes from GOD. So again we come to the conclusion that man's will is subservient to GOD

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Originally Posted by De Maria

You're mixing apples and oranges. The fact that some will disobey God is an affirmation of free will. It is because they freely chose to disobey
God that they were condemned.

It is by God's grace, but not by God's grace alone.

Scripture says:
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

You see, faith is the grace by which we are saved. By this I don't mean to insinuate faith ALONE. However, faith is a grace and it is a gift of God. And without faith we won't be saved.

But faith is a particular kind of grace which must be exercised. And faith is exercised in the will. Therefore we must will to exercise faith and when we do we combine with faith our cooperation which takes the form of works. And therefore Scripture says:
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

If faith is grace , and grace is a gift of GOD which we can not earn by our own actions,then the works that justifies man must be an action caused by the brain of man. Seemy last answer to you. It then follows that not faith is a type of GOD'S GRACE but the good works he does are a product of the way he thinks . See my last answer to find out why man thinks the way he does.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I suggest you read St. Augustine more closely. He is thoroughly Catholic and believes in the Catholic doctrine of predestination.

Look at his writings in the latter part of his life. He said "man lost his free will by the fall of Adam" actually that because of the" original sin was so strong it overcomes man's free wll. Also look at what The council of orange's position on predestination . That was the official HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH'S position as of that date. Also look at my previous answer about why we should return to THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH as we profess to believe in the NICENE CREED. Let's get rid of any national adjective and return to the ONE TRUE CHURCH

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

Martin Luther [was a] BISHOP in the Roman Catholic Church

Please cite your source.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James is talking about Abraham.

Some of James' hearers used the doctrine of justification by faith alone as an excuse to be complacent about living in an ungodly way. James wanted to shake them up a bit and so deliberately used paradox in this verse. He then used the example of Abraham as the test for genuine faith -- first faith (Gen. 15:6) and then works (Gen. 22). In James 2:18, James says, "Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." He was referring to the genuineness of faith.

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

You may be right But if faith is GOD's Gift then we can only have it if GOD gives it to us.We can only exercise it if GOD gives it to us. Therefore it is not of our will but of GOD'S Will.Therefore it also follows that only GOD has FREE WILL and our will is subservient to HIS WILL. From this it follows the only TRUE FREE WILL IS GOD'S WILL. The above also can be discerned by the following line of thought. The choices man makes are the product of his mind and makes up his will. His mind is created and given to him by GOD. Man's thinking is shaped by his enviroment which also comes from GOD.Therefore the way he thinks and acts comes from GOD. So again we come to the conclusion that man's will is subservient to GOD

Hi Rebel,

What you have here seems to be an argument for fatalism rather than predestination.

Regards

Tut

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Originally Posted by TUT317

Hi Rebel,

What you have here seems to be an argument for fatalism rather than predestination.

Regards

Tut

To me fatalism and predestination are the same in this case because they are both based on the WILL OF GOD.He is the only one who can give you grace and only HIS GRACE CAN SAVE YOU. HIS GRACE is given to you if HE WILLS IT

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

To me fatalism and predestination are the same in this case because they are both based on the WILL OF GOD.He is the only one who can give you grace and only HIS GRACE CAN SAVE YOU. HIS GRACE is given to you if HE WILLS IT

Hi Rebel,

No problem. I just thought I would point that out.

Regards

Tut

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Originally Posted by paraclete

I don't need a history book to know the truth, I look to Jesus

FINE THEN USE THE HOLY SCRIPTURES. CAVIN DID AND WAS ONE OF THE GREAT MEN WHO INSPIRED ME TO THINK THE WAY I DO. Maybe they were wrong and maybe they wre right'think about it . The other two were Martin LUTHER AND ST.AGUSTINE BOTH OF WHOM WERE CATHOLIC BISHOPS

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Please cite your source.

The history of europe and the history of the catholic church. See the nailing on the door of his objections to indulgences and more (if i remember right it was 96 in all)

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

Luther was a bishop

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

THE HISTORY OF EUROPE AND THE HISTORY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. SEE THE NAILING ON THE DOOR OF HIS OBJECTIONS TO INDULGENCES AND MORE (if I remember right it was 96 in all)

Well, Charlie, you are wrong -- totally incorrect. He wasn't a bishop, and there were only 95 theses. Don't mess with someone (me) who has been Lutheran since her first breath and who was born on his birthday (but in a different year).

Writing in caps is rude and indicates you are shouting. Are you?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

James is talking about Abraham.

Correct.

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Some of James' hearers used the doctrine of justification by faith alone

There is no such doctrine in the Bible.

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as an excuse to be complacent about living in an ungodly way. James wanted to shake them up a bit and so deliberately used paradox in this verse. He then used the example of Abraham as the test for genuine faith -- first faith (Gen. 15:6) and then works (Gen. 22). In James 2:18, James says, "Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." He was referring to the genuineness of faith.

Correct. Faith without works is dead and dead faith can't save:
James 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

You may be right But if faith is GOD's Gift then we can only have it if GOD gives it to us.We can only exercise it if GOD gives it to us. Therefore it is not of our will but of GOD'S Will.Therefore it also follows that only GOD has FREE WILL and our will is subservient to HIS WILL.

That doesn't follow because God gave us free will. This is proven in Scripture because He gave us a choice:
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

God would not have given us a choice if He had not first given us free will to make that choice.

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From this it follows the only TRUE FREE WILL IS GOD'S WILL. The above also can be discerned by the following line of thought. The choices man makes are the product of his mind and makes up his will. His mind is created and given to him by GOD. Man's thinking is shaped by his environment which also comes from GOD.Therefore the way he thinks and acts comes from GOD. So again we come to the conclusion that man's will is subservient to GOD

The correct conclusion is that man's will is SUPPOSED to be subservient to God's. But God has given man the freedom to uh, no pun intended, rebel. If men rebel against God, they become disobedient and will not be saved, but cast into the lake of fire.

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

... See my last answer to find out why man thinks the way he does.

Your last answer was a false conclusion drawn by false premises. See my response to that answer.

However, here you are coming to more false conclusions:

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If faith is grace , and grace is a gift of GOD which we can not earn by our own actions,then the works that justifies man must be an action caused by the brain of man.

This is a non sequitur. The works that justify man are explained in Scripture in the Ten Commandments, and in the Corporal works of mercy (Matt 25 and James 1).

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Seemy last answer to you.

Already did.

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It then follows that not faith is a type of GOD'S GRACE

Scripture says so:
1 Corinthians 12:8-10 (King James Version)

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

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but the good works he does are a product of the way he thinks .

Which if he is a Christian are a product of his faith in Christ.

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

Look at his writings in the latter part of his life. He said "man lost his free will by the fall of Adam" actually that because of the" original sin was so strong it overcomes man's free wll. Also look at what The council of orange's position on predestination . That was the official HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH'S position as of that date. Also look at my previous answer about why we should return to THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH as we profess to beleive in the NICENE CREED. Let's get rid of any national adjective and return to the ONE TRUE CHURCH

Provide the reference. I'm not familiar with that quote.
This is HIS title to chapter 3:
Chapter 3.— Sinners are Convicted When Attempting to Excuse Themselves by Blaming God, Because They Have Free Will.

CHURCH FATHERS: On Grace and Free Will (St. Augustine)

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Originally Posted by De Maria

There is no such doctrine in the Bible.

Of course there isn't. James' audience invented it out of whole cloth so they wouldn't have to do any works (as thank yous to God), and were a bunch of whiners.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Of course there isn't. James' audience invented it out of whole cloth so they wouldn't have to do any works (as thank yous to God),

On the contrary, St. James is telling them that works are necessary in order to be justified.

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and were a bunch of whiners.

Let me understand, you don't believe in salvation by faith alone. But you believe in justification by faith alone?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Well, Charlie, you are wrong -- totally incorrect. He wasn't a bishop, and there were only 95 theses. Don't mess with someone (me) who has been Lutheran since her first breath and who was born on his birthday (but in a different year).

Writing in caps is rude and indicates you are shouting. Are you?

NO! My name is not Charlie. I stand corrected on the 95. But you must admit I was close. He may not of been a Bishop in the Lutheran Church but HE WAS A BISHOP IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH before the PROTEST. Check that out in a history book and also in his Bio.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

On the contrary, St. James is telling them that works are necessary in order to be justified.

No, he isn't. He's using the literary device of paradox.

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Let me understand, you don't believe in salvation by faith alone. But you believe in justification by faith alone?

And the difference between them is?

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

HE WAS A BISHOP IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH before the PROTEST. Check that out in a history book and also in his Bio.

No, he wasn't. Please cite at least one source.

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

I suggest you read St. Augustine more closely. He is thoroughly Catholic and believes in the Catholic doctrine of predestination.

Yes he was thoroughy Catholic and wrote in his Confessions the Church's doctrine was right but as I have pointed out that was like Gallieo's rejection of the theory "the earth revovles around the sun" The Church had great power over everyone and could force them to issue any denial of any truth. St.Augustine ended up believing THAT MAN HAD BEEN GIVEN FREE WILL but lost it when Adam ate from the TREE OF KNOWLEDGE. He lost it because he disobeyd GOD.Could this of been because the knowledge Adam gained might allow he to disagree with GOD? And possibly make a good argument as to what actions he should undertake?Read the historical bio's of St. Augustine. Please believe your answers may be the true ones and mine may be the true ones,but I don't we will find in our life time and maybe never.

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

You're mixing apples and oranges. The fact that some will disobey God is an affirmation of free will. It is because they freely chose to disobey
God that they were condemned.

It is by God's grace, but not by God's grace alone.

Scripture says:
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

You see, faith is the grace by which we are saved. By this I don't mean to insinuate faith ALONE. However, faith is a grace and it is a gift of God. And without faith we won't be saved.

But faith is a particular kind of grace which must be exercised. And faith is exercised in the will. Therefore we must will to exercise faith and when we do we combine with faith our cooperation which takes the form of works. And therefore Scripture says:
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

No he is saved by faith and any of GOD'S Graces. It is GOD'S CHOICE not ours of which graces HE gives us . It is also HIS choice on how we act because HE controls our environment that develops our brain. So you see man makes his choices completely directed by GOD

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

No, he isn't. He's using the literary device of paradox.

I don't know what leads you to that conclusion. He says:
James 2
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

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And the difference between them is?

Between salvation and justification?

Justification is the cleansing of the soul making us right with God in this life and it leads to salvation if we persevere in that state of being.

Salvation is final perseverance in a state of grace maintained by faith and good works to eternal life in heaven.

Ok, well let me ask you this, are we required to work in thanksgiving to God after He justifies us by faith alone?

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

Yes he was thoroughy Catholic and wrote in his Confessions the Church's doctrine was right but as I have pointed out that was like Gallieo's rejection of the theory "the earth revovles around the sun" The Church had great power over everyone and could force them to issue any denial of any truth. St.Augustine ended up beleiving THAT MAN HAD BEEN GIVEN FREE WILL but lost it when Adam ate from the TREE OF KNOWLEDGE. He lost it because he disobeyd GOD.Could this of been because the knowledge Adam gained might allow he to disagree with GOD? And possibly make a good arguement as to what actions he should undertake?Read the historical bio's of St. Augustine. Please beleive your answers may be the true ones and mine may be the true ones,but I don't we will find in our life time and maybe never.

Ok, I guess we agree to disagree. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

No he is saved by faith and any of GOD'S Graces. It is GOD'S CHOICE not ours of which graces HE gives us . It is also HIS choice on how we act because HE controls our enviroment that develops our brain. So you see man makes his choices completly directed by GOD

But faith without works, is dead.
James 2:
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

He's using the literary device of paradox.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I don't know what leads you to that conclusion.

The same questioning mind that causes me to examine why the Psalmist says in Ps. 98:8 that the floods clap their hands.

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Ok, well let me ask you this, are we required to work in thanksgiving to God after He justifies us by faith alone?

Grace is free. We do good works as our thanks to God for His love and mercy.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

The same questioning mind that causes me to examine why the Psalmist says in Ps. 98:8 that the floods clap their hands.

I don't see any mention of floods in James 2. Nor any inanimate objects clapping their hands.

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Grace is free. We do good works as our thanks to God for His love and mercy.

What would happen if we did not give thanks to God for His love and mercy?

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I don't see any mention of floods in James 2. Nor any inanimate objects clapping their hands.

Apparently you didn't read what I had said about the floods.

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What would happen if we did not give thanks to God for His love and mercy?

Are you with me that grace is free, and we don't have to do any work for it to earn it?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Apparently you didn't read what I had said about the floods.

Are you with me that grace is free, and we don't have to do any work for it to earn it?

Yes. That's Catholic Teaching. But it is also Catholic Teaching that we won't receive the grace of salvation if we don't obey Christ.

So, What would happen if we did not give thanks to God for His love and mercy?

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Yes. That's Catholic Teaching. But it is also Catholic Teaching that we won't receive the grace of salvation if we don't obey Christ.

Before I answer, I'd like an explanation of what "obey Christ" means.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Before I answer, I'd like an explanation of what "obey Christ" means.

To obey Christ means to keep the Commandments of God:
John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

To obey Christ means to keep the Commandments of God:
John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

And if I do that, my reward will be what?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

And if I do that, my reward will be what?

God will manifest Himself to you. In other words, salvation.

Enjoyed the dance, Wondergirl. But I've got an early day tomorrow.

Goodnight.