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  • Mar 31, 2009, 07:35 AM
    lenox263
    Roman Catholic Antichrist?
    Here is My Reasons

    Why am I not Roman Catholic?
    1. OF ALL THE HUMAN TRADITIONS taught and practiced by the Roman Catholic Church, which are contrary to the Bible, the most ancient are the prayers for the dead and the sign of the Cross. Both began 300 years after Christ... 310AD.

    2. Wax Candles introduced in church about 320AD.

    3. Veneration of angles and dead saints about 375

    4. The Mass, as a daily celebration, adopted 394AD.

    5. The worship of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and the use of the term, 'Mother of God', as applied to her, originated in the Council of Ephesus in... 431AD.

    6. Priests began to dress differently from the laity in 500AD.

    7. The doctrine of Purgatory was first established by Gregory the Great about the year 593AD.

    8. The Latin language, as the language of prayer and worship in churches, was also imposed by Pope Gregory I. 600 years after Christ... 600AD. The Word of god forbids praying and teaching in an unknown tongue. (1Cor.14:9).

    9. The Bible teaches that we pray to God alone. In the primitive church never were prayers directed to Mary, or to dead saints. This practice began in the Roman Church about 600AD. (Matt. 11:28; Luke 1:46; Acts 10:25-26; 14:14-18)

    10. The Papacy is of pagan origin. The title of pope or universal bishop, was first given to the bishop of Rome by the wicked emperor Phocas, in the year 610AD. This he did to spite Bishop Ciriacus of Constantinople, who had justly excommunicated him for his having caused the assassination of his predecessor emperor Mauritius. Gregory I, then bishop of Rome, refused the title, but his, successor, Boniface III, first assumed title "Pope." Jesus did not appoint Peter to the headship of the apostles and forbade any such notion. (Lk. 22:24-26;Eph.1:22-23;Col.1:18;lCor.3:11)... is there any mention in Scripture, nor in history, that Peter ever was in Rome, much less that he was pope there for 25 years; Clement, 3rd bishop of Rome, remarks that there is no real lst century evidence that Peter ever was in Rome."

    11. The kissing of the Pope's feet began in 709AD. It had been a pagan custom to kiss the feet of emperors. The Word of God forbids such practices. (Read Acts 10:25-26; Rev. 19: 1 0; 22:9).

    12. The Temporal power of the Popes began 750AD. When Pepin, the usurper of the throne of France, descended into Italy, called by Pope Stephen II, to war against the Italian Lombards, he defeated them and gave the city of Rome and surrounding territory to the pope. Jesus expressly forbade such a thing, and He himself refused worldly kingship. (Read Matt 4:8-9; 20:25-26; John 18:38).

    13. Worship of cross, of images and relics was authorized in 788AD. This was by order of Dowager Empress Irene of Constantinople, who first caused to pluck the eyes of her own son, Constantine VI, and then called a church council at the request of Hadrian I, pope of Rome at that time.

    14. Holy Water, mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by the priest, was authorized in 850AD.

    15. The veneration of St. Joseph began in 890AD.

    16. The baptism of bells was instituted by Pope John XIV, in the year 965AD.

    17. Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV in 995AD. Every believer and follower of Christ is called saint in the Bible. (Read Rom, 1:7; I Cor. 1:2).

    18. Fasting on Fridays and during Lent were imposed in the year 998AD.

    Imposed by popes said to be interested in the commerce of fish. (Bull, or permit to eat meat), some authorities say, began in the year 7OOAD. This is against the plain teaching of the bible. (Read Matt.15:10 1Cor. 10:25; 1Tim.4:1-3).

    19. The Mass was developed gradually as a sacrifice; attendance made obligatory in the 11th century. The Bible teaches that the sacrifice of Christ was offered once and for all, and not to be repeated, but only commerated in the Lord's Supper. (Read Heb.7:27; 9:26-28; 10: I 0- 14).

    20. The celibacy of the priesthood was decreed by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII, in the year 1079AD. Jesus imposed no such rule, nor did any of the apostles. On the contrary, St. Peter was a married man, and St. Paul says that bishops were to have wife and children. (Read 1st Tim. 3:2,5, and 12: Matt 8:14-15).

    21. The Rosary, or prayer beads was introduced by Peter the Hermit, in the year 1090AD. Copied from Hindus and Mohammedans 1090AD. The counting of prayers is a pagan practice and is expressly condemned by Christ (Matt 6:5-13).

    22. The Inquisition of heretics was instituted by the Council of Verona in the year 1184. Jesus never taught the use of force to spread His religion ...1184AD.

    23. The sale of Indulgence, commonly regarded as a purchase of forgiveness and a permit to indulge in sin, began in the year 1190AD. Christianity, as taught in the Bible, condemns such a traffic, and it was the protest against this traffic that brought on the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century.

    24. The dogma of Transubstantiation was decreed by Pope Innocent III, in the year 1215AD. By this doctrine the priest pretends to perform a daily miracle by changing a wafer into the body of Christ, and then he pretends to eat Him alive in the presence of his people during Mass. The Bible condemns such absurdities; for the Lords Supper is simply a memorial of the sacrifice of Christ. The spiritual presence of Christ is implied in the Lord's Supper is simply a memorial of the sacrifice of Christ. The spiritual presence of Christ is implied in the Lord's Supper. (Read Luke 22:19-20; John 6:35; I Cor. 11:26).

    25. Confession of sins to the priest at least once a year was instituted by Pope Innocent III, in the Lateran Council, in the year 1215AD. The Bible commands us to confess our sins direct to God. (Read Psalm. 51: 1 - 10; Luke 7:48; 15:21; John 1:8-9). 26. The adoration of the wafer (Host), was decreed by Pope Honorius in the year in 1220AD. So the Roman Church worships a God made by human hands. This is plain idolatry and absolutely contrary to the spirit of the Gospel. (Read John 4:24).

    27. The Bible forbidden to laymen and placed in the Index of forbidden books by the Council of Valencia in 1229AD. Jesus commanded that the Scriptures should be read by all. (John5:39: lTim.3:15-17).

    28. The Scapular was invented by Simon Stock, an English monk, in the year ... 1287AD. It is a piece of brown cloth, with the picture of the Virgin and supposed to contain supernatural virtue to protect from all dangers those who wear it on naked skin. It is fetishism.

    29. The Roman Church forbade the cup to the laity, by instituting the communion of one kind in the Council of Constance n 1414AD. The Bible commands us to celebrate the Lord's Supper with unleavened bread and the fruit of the vine. (Read Matt. 26:27; I Cor. 11:26-29).

    30. The doctrine of Purgatory was proclaimed as a dogma of faith by Council of Florence in 1439AD. There is not one word in the Bible that would teach the purgatory of priests. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sins. (Read I John 1:7-9; 2:1-2; John 5:24; Rom. 8: 1).

    31. The doctrine of 7 Sacraments affirmed in 1439AD. The Bible says that Christ instituted only two ordinances, Baptism and the Lord's Supper. (Read Matt. 28:19-20; 26:26-28).

    32. The Ave Maria, part of the last half in 1508AD. It was completed 50 years afterward and finally approved by Pope Sixths V, at the end of the 16th century.

    33. The Council of Trent, held in the year 1545, declared that Tradition is of equal authority with the Bible 1545AD. By tradition is meant human teachings. The Pharisees believed the same way, and Jesus bitterly condemned them, for by teaching human tradition, they nullified the commandments of God. (Read Mark 7:7-13; Col. 2:8; Rev. 22:18).

    34. The apocryphal books were added to the Bible also by the Council of Trent in 1546 These books were not recognized as canonical by the Jewish Church. (See Rev. 22:8-9).

    35. The Creed of Pope Pius IV was imposed as the official creed 1560 years after Christ and the apostles, in 1560AD. True Christians retain the Holy Scriptures as their creed. Hence their creed is 1500 years older than the creed of Roman Catholics. (Read Gal. 1:8).

    36. The Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius IX in the year 1854AD. The Bible states that all men, with the sole exception of Christ, are sinners. Mary herself had need of a Savior. (Read Rom. 3:23; 5:12; Psalm. 51:5; Luke 1:30,46,47).

    37. In the year 1870 after Christ, Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of Papal Infallibility 1870AD. This is a blasphemy and the sign of the apostasy and of the antichrist predicted by St. Paul. (Read II These. 2:2-12; Rev. 17:1-9; 13:5-8,18). Many Bible students see the number of the beast (Rev. 13:18). 666 in the Roman letters of the Pope's title: "VICARIVS FILLII DEI." -V.5, I-1; C-100, l-l: v-5, 1-1; L-50, 1-1; 1-1-Total, 666.

    38. Pope Pius X, in the year 1907, condemned together with 'Modernish", all the discoveries of modern science which are not approved by the Church... 1907AD. Pius IX had done the same thing in the Syllabus of 1864.

    39. In the year 1930 Pius XI, condemned the Public Schools... 1930AD.

    40. In the year 1931 the same pope Pius XI, reaffirmed the doctrine that Mary is "the Mother of God.... 1931AD. This doctrine was first invented by the Council of Ephesus in the year 431AD. . This is a heresy contrary by Mary's own words. (Read Luke 1:46-49; John 2:1-5).

    41. In the year 1950 the last dogma was proclaimed by Pope Pius XII, the Assumption of the Virgin Mary ....1950AD

    42. (Revelation 17:9)The Roman Catholic Church is the Woman of seven hills

    Compton's Pictured Encyclopedia, 1948, Volume 12, page 144, also tells us about the city of seven hills.
    ...the "City of Seven Hills."... the Capitoline, Palatine, Aventine, Quirinal, Viminal, Esquiline, and Caelian hills.. . the seat of the papacy, the head of the great Roman Catholic Church.

    43 THE PAPACY 8th head of the beast

    1Egypt
    2Babylon(Lion)
    3Medo-Persia (Bear)
    4Greece (Leopard)
    5 Pagan Rome
    6 Empirial Rome
    7 Papal Rome(little horn power see daniel) 538AD vigiluis 2 - 1870 AD
    8 Vatican- 1929 Lateran treaty Under Mussolini ( The beast that received wound on the head but healed will to perdition)

    12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

    13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

    14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

    7Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

    7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
  • Mar 31, 2009, 07:46 AM
    RickJ

    1. The teachings that you believe began when?
    2. So what's your problem with candles?
    3. Wrong. You don't know your history as well as you should. Have you not heard of Polycarp?
    4. Wrong on the history again. Have you not read the Didache?
    5. Wrong on doctrine. The worship of Mary is grave sin according to the Catholic Church.
    6. So what?
    7. You must not know the writings of the New Testament.

    ... that's enough for me. You clearly do not know the true teachings of the Roman Catholic faith. You are just regurgitating anti-Catholic sentiment.

    Why not just work out your own faith with fear and trembling, as we are encouraged in the Bible?

    Judge not lest you be judged.

    And EVEN IF you are fully convinced of the wrongness of others, why not follow another exhortation given by Christ Himself:

    Forgive others as you would have them forgive you.
  • Mar 31, 2009, 08:09 AM
    lenox263

    http://www.holyghostchurch.com/pics/...ships_mary.jpg

    Are you Catholic

    Where inn the bible does it say we make statues of the saints.

    Where in the bible does it say we go in the confession both

    Where in the bible does it say Pope is the Vicar

    Where in the Bile does it say priests are not allowed to mary
  • Mar 31, 2009, 08:13 AM
    450donn

    While I personally do not agree with the Roman Catholic's beliefs on many subjects and personally feel they are too steeped in religion ( AKA Jewish priests in AD33) many feel that this symbolism represents the true meaning of Christianity. That is one of the many reasons that there are so many religions around the world. There is really no reason to site all the things you feel are wrong with the Catholic church except to get an argument started.
    Moderator, please think about closing this thread now!
  • Mar 31, 2009, 08:15 AM
    RickJ
    Lenox:

    I find it interesting that you ignore the brief response given to your list.

    Is changing the subject the best you can do when questions or comments are given that you do not agree with?

    I already know the answer: You are not prepared to give a response since all you have done is regurgitate anti-Catholic sentiment.

    Try this on for size: Christ spoke of HIS Church. His Church is one. There are many who do not agree with YOU.

    So does that mean that all who do not agree with what has been pumped into your head are not Christians?

    Think about that...

    So as for this thread on this forum. You ranted - and there was a response to your first 7 comments.

    Would you like to stick with it?

    If so, answer one or more of the responses to your first 7 "points".
  • Mar 31, 2009, 08:34 AM
    RickJ

    ... bear with lenox, folks, while he scrambles for his anti-Catholic literature to use for his retort. We will look forward to his response :)
  • Mar 31, 2009, 08:44 AM
    lenox263

    Issaih8v20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

    It does not matter what religion the person is, any religion that does not agree with the Bible is not of God
  • Mar 31, 2009, 08:58 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    It does not matter what religion the person is, any religion that does not agree with the Bible is not of God

    And your religion is?
  • Mar 31, 2009, 08:59 AM
    RickJ
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox
    Issaih8v20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

    It does not matter what religion the person is, any religion that does not agree with the Bible is not of God

    I agree.

    And further, to clarify: that is the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church - who teaches that Scripture is the inerrant Word of God.

    And so, back to your points?
  • Mar 31, 2009, 09:10 AM
    artlady

    I found the site where you copied all of your riveting misinformation from.The least you could do is give copyright credit to the original author.
    That is not a very Christian thing to do.


    LIST OF CATHOLIC HERESIES And HUMAN TRADITIONS
  • Mar 31, 2009, 09:15 AM
    RickJ
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by artlady View Post
    I found the site where you copied all of your riveting misinformation from.The least you could do is give copyright credit to the original author.
    That is not a very Christian thing to do.
    The Romanisation of Catholicism & the Petrine Deception

    Thank you, artlady, for pointing that out. It is, then, as I guessed: just a regurgitation of anti-Catholic sentiment.. . and worse yet, further testimony to the world at how divided our faith is.

    Thankfully, there are wonderful things happening today that some just do not see.
  • Mar 31, 2009, 09:15 AM
    lenox263
    If you Can prove all the points I made are in the Bible Teaching then Roman Catholism is not Antichrist. Jesus warned

    (a) Correct doctrine is foundational to biblical Christianity. The system of doctrine taught by Scripture defines God, Christ, salvation, ethics, sin and everything a person needs for faith and life (2 Tim. 3:15-17). Without correct doctrine the object of our faith is false and all is lost. (b) Correct doctrine is crucial because false and man-made doctrine drives out, replaces and nullifies true teaching (Mt. 15:1-9; Col. 2:8, 20-23).

    I am a BibleChristian
  • Mar 31, 2009, 09:15 AM
    artlady
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    And your religion is?

    His copy and paste job came from a Baptist website.

    LIST OF CATHOLIC HERESIES And HUMAN TRADITIONS
  • Mar 31, 2009, 09:18 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    I am a BibleChristian

    And very judgmental. WWJS?
  • Mar 31, 2009, 09:20 AM
    RickJ
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    If you Can prove all the points i made are in the Bible Teaching then Roman Catholism is not Antichrist. Jesus warned

    (a) Correct doctrine is foundational to biblical Christianity. The system of doctrine taught by Scripture defines God, Christ, salvation, ethics, sin and everything a person needs for faith and life (2 Tim. 3:15-17). Without correct doctrine the object of our faith is false and all is lost. (b) Correct doctrine is crucial because false and man-made doctrine drives out, replaces and nullifies true teaching (Mt. 15:1-9; Col. 2:8, 20-23).

    I am a BibleChristian


    Sorry, lenox, it does not work that way.

    The proof is on YOU. YOU made the claims, so back them up yourself.

    Did they not teach you that?
  • Mar 31, 2009, 09:23 AM
    lenox263
    I sais prove from the Bible if the points are wrong
  • Mar 31, 2009, 09:23 AM
    RickJ
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    And very judgmental.

    Yes. I think lenox does not know scripture as well as he thinks he does: Matthew 7:1-5

    "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

    3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
  • Mar 31, 2009, 09:26 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    i sais prove from the Bible if the points are wrong

    No, like RickJ said, the burden is on you to prove those points are correct. (I'm still chuckling about the candles.) Rick has been nice enough to refute the first seven. What say you about those first seven?
  • Mar 31, 2009, 09:29 AM
    lenox263

    Prove the 43 points made about this faith made wrong.

    2 Peter 1:20-21: "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (KJV)"

    2 Timothy 3:16: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
  • Mar 31, 2009, 09:31 AM
    lenox263

    This the Great Apostacy spoken in the latter days
  • Mar 31, 2009, 09:33 AM
    RickJ
    Zzzzzzzzzz :rolleyes:

    Lenox does not read replies. He just keeps regurgitating the crap that has been fed him.

    Lenox, can you think on your own?
  • Mar 31, 2009, 09:36 AM
    artlady

    I would like to submit my quote for consideration.

    Quote:

    “We need to promote greater tolerance and understanding among the peoples of the world. Nothing can be more dangerous to our efforts to build peace and development than a world divided along religious, ethnic or cultural lines. In each nation, and among all nations, we must work to promote unity based on our shared humanity.”
    – Kofi Annan
  • Mar 31, 2009, 09:40 AM
    RickJ
    I confess that I have not responded in a teaching way as I should have.

    I offer an olive branch to lenox, who I should consider a brother.

    Lenox, pick what you think is the "worst" of Roman Catholic Teaching: Tell us what you think we (Roman Catholics) believe - and tell us why you believe it is wrong - and let's go from there.

    Fair enough for you ?
  • Mar 31, 2009, 09:44 AM
    RickJ

    Amen, Artlady. Here is a similar exhortation from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

    The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."
  • Mar 31, 2009, 10:42 AM
    artlady
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RickJ View Post
    Amen, Artlady. Here is a similar exhortation from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

    The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

    I like that.While much of my Catholic upbringing was very strict and difficult to comprehend,I always got the tenent of love your brother,and judge not lest ye be judged.

    I would never consider maligning someone's religious belief.It is wrong on so many levels.

    Thank-you for your insight.
  • Mar 31, 2009, 12:42 PM
    Wondergirl

    Actually, we are Christian because the Catholic Church fathers kept the teachings together. We owe that Church a huge thank you.
  • Mar 31, 2009, 12:51 PM
    JoeT777
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by artlady View Post
    I like that.While much of my Catholic upbringing was very strict and difficult to comprehend,I always got the tenent of love your brother,and judge not lest ye be judged.

    I would never consider maligning someones religious belief.It is wrong on so many levels.

    Thank-you for your insight.

    When I see such definitive lists (all untrue of course) it always reminds me of Archbishop Fulton Sheen's quote, “There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church— which is, of course, quite a different thing.”

    Not only are the criticisms wrong, but so are the facts. You would think if he was going to malign someone, the least he could do is get the facts right. Not only that but there's so few of them. If lenox263 is a bigger person than what's indicated by this list then he'll find out for himself just how wrong he is?

    Wow, wax candles? I never heard that one! How does burning candles become a big thing? And I pray to God every day that there is a daily Mass! Are these really supposed to be criticisms? I wonder if Lenox263 got his criticisms mixed up with the attributes of the Church.

    I heard that the local First Baptist Church down the street just put in electric lights; I wonder what that does to them? I hope it's not bad; I've got friends who go to Church there. If I sound like I'm being cynical it's only because I am

    JoeT
  • Mar 31, 2009, 09:25 PM
    JoeT777
    WHY I AM ROMAN CATHOLIC:
    I am Roman Catholic because it is the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC Church of Jesus Christ. It is that organization receiving Christ's breath and prevailing against the gates of hell since. Let me try to explain using some trite objections.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    1. OF ALL THE HUMAN TRADITIONS taught and practiced by the Roman Catholic Church, which are contrary to the Bible, the most ancient are the prayers for the dead and the sign of the Cross. Both began 300 years after Christ ... 310AD.

    It's true; those traditions of men should be avoided. But, the Roman Church isn't a tradition of men, but rather it was commissioned by Christ.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    2. Wax Candles introduced in church about 320AD.

    This really fascinates me. How is it that wax Candles is a bad thing? And what would really be interesting is to know how they came about in 320 A.D. Further, were they a newly invented? What is your idea of what a Christian should use for light? Are electric light bulbs acceptable? To be a good Christian according to Lenox263 must we use incandescent or fluorescent?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    3. Veneration of angles and dead saints about 375

    To venerate is to solicit the good will, or to revere. The Scriptures refer to payers to the dead. If people didn't pray to the dead what was this verse all about, “It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.” (2Macc 12:46)

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    4. The Mass, as a daily celebration, adopted 394AD.

    there are scriptural references to Mass being said in Scripture, with offerings and the taking of the Eucharist. Literature in the first century suggests Mass, much like today's, was said. What's the significance of it being said daily? Are we not to worship God daily, or only on Wednesdays and Sundays?

    And if there is no Mass, then why do we read in scriptures, “By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise always to God, that is to say, the fruit of lips confessing to his name.” (Hebrews 13:15)

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    5. The worship of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and the use of the term, 'Mother of God', as applied to her, originated in the Council of Ephesus in .... 431AD.

    Mary isn't worshiped. She is venerated. There is a difference. Let's see the woman that bore Christ is a mother. Christ is One Person in the Trinity; God. It can logically be said that Mary was the mother of God. "Mother of God was followed by the teaching of the Council of Ephesus held Mary to be Theotokos. This had been a belief of the Catholic faith since Christ. Irenaeus wrote regarding what came to be known as Theotoko, circa 175 A.D. So you point is what? Christ wasn't born of a virgin woman?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    6. Priests began to dress differently from the laity in 500AD.

    And this means what? Are you afraid they'll catch a cold without coats? So what?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    7. The doctrine of Purgatory was first established by Gregory the Great about the year 593AD.

    Catholics hold that the doctrine of purgatory is Scriptural, while not directly called “purgatory” it can be inferred through scripture that there is such a thing, similar to the way we infer the Trinity in Scripture.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    8. The Latin language, as the language of prayer and worship in churches, was also imposed by Pope Gregory I. 600 years after Christ ...600AD. The Word of god forbids praying and teaching in an unknown tongue. (1Cor.14:9).

    Get real! Latin was the common language. When Latin fell out of favor in the secular world the Church taught it to all the faithful and so that they could understand the Mass, and so that, like the One faith they held, there was only One language. This was done primarily because Latin was the Church's official language. It was only until after the second Vatican Council in 1964 that Mass was said in the language of the participants.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    9 The Bible teaches that we pray to God alone. In the primitive church never were prayers directed to Mary, or to dead saints. This practice began in the Roman Church about 600AD. (Matt. 11:28; Luke 1:46; Acts 10:25-26; 14:14-18)

    I've said to my neighbor, “I pray you, please cut your grass”. Am I going to hell for praying to my neighbor. Or maybe you don't understand what 'pray' means?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    10. The Papacy is of pagan origin. The title of pope or universal bishop, was first given to the bishop of Rome by the wicked emperor Phocas, in the year 610AD. This he did to spite Bishop Ciriacus of Constantinople, who had justly excommunicated him for his having caused the assassination of his predecessor emperor Mauritius. Gregory I, then bishop of Rome, refused the title, but his, successor, Boniface III, first assumed title "Pope." Jesus did not appoint Peter to the headship of the apostles and forbade any such notion. (Lk. 22:24-26;Eph.1:22-23;Col.1:18;lCor.3:11)... is there any mention in Scripture, nor in history, that Peter ever was in Rome, much less that he was pope there for 25 years; Clement, 3rd bishop of Rome, remarks that there is no real lst century evidence that Peter ever was in Rome."

    The first Pope was appointed by Christ, (Matt 16) It doesn't matter if Peter didn't go within 1,000 miles of Rome. It wasn't one of Christ's requirements - "Go to Rome" But, that's were his bones were found.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    11. The kissing of the Pope's feet began in 709AD. It had been a pagan custom to kiss the feet of emperors. The Word of God forbids such practices. (Read Acts 10:25-26; Rev. 19: 1 0; 22:9).

    Acts 10:25-26 certainly doesn't say you shouldn't kiss the Pope's feet. What it said was that Peter lifted him up. It doesn't say 'thou shall not kiss feet.'

    It's likely that kissing the feet came from venerating the Pope. The first written documentation of this honor was in “liber Pontificalis” which tells of Emperor Justin kissing the feet of Pope John I (523-526); a closer to the time of pagan Rome. Even still, at least 2 centuries had past since Rome was a pagan state.

    The Kissing of the Feet:" And kings shall … worship thee with their face toward the earth, and they shall lick up the dust of thy feet. And thou shalt know that I am the Lord, for they shall not be confounded that wait for him". Isaias 49:23

    Then there is the Luke 7, where the woman kissed Christ's feet. Why did Christ allow this sinner to touch his feet? Are we not to emulate Christ's life? If a sinner can honor Christ in such a manner shouldn't we honor his Vicar in the same way?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    12. The Temporal power of the Popes began 750AD. When Pepin, the usurper of the throne of France, descended into Italy, called by Pope Stephen II, to war against the Italian Lombards, he defeated them and gave the city of Rome and surrounding territory to the pope. Jesus expressly forbade such a thing, and He himself refused worldly kingship. (Read Matt 4:8-9; 20:25-26; John 18:38).

    No the temporal power of the Pope began in about 325 A.D. with the Roman Emperor Constantine. Unlike an invisible church, the Church holds that its powers are exercised under its commission by Christ; this commission spans both the spiritual world and the temporal. It might surprise you that the Church still rightly claims a certain temporal power.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    13. Worship of cross, of images and relics was authorized in 788AD. This was by order of Dowager Empress Irene of Constantinople, who first caused to pluck the eyes of her own son, Constantine VI, and then called a church council at the request of Hadrian I, pope of Rome at that time.

    Relics are not 'worshiped.' And it was circa 325 when ST. Helena made searching for relics a Christian passion. However, there are many different traditions of Holy Relics which had once been associated with Christ. There are claims of certain relics of Christ, Peter, and some of the other Apostles. None of which are 'worshiped'.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    14. Holy Water, mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by the priest, was authorized in 850AD.

    Eliseus used salt in the water (Cf. 2Kings 2:19 sqq.) Salting the Holy water is done as a blessing during high Mass. I understand that it was formulated into Gregorian Mass; both St. Augustine and John the Deacon write about it. Apparently it was not universal until St. Gregory.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    15. The veneration of St. Joseph began in 890AD.

    It's my understanding that St. Joseph has always been venerated.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    16. The baptism of bells was instituted by Pope John XIV, in the year 965AD.

    Oh, my!

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    17. Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV in 995AD. Every believer and follower of Christ is called saint in the Bible. (Read Rom, 1:7; I Cor. 1:2).

    I'm sure Saints have been canonized since Peter the first Pope, even still if they are Saints they are only dead to the world. The baptized faithful in the Church are to be called Saints. And how is this a detriment to Catholics?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    18. Fasting on Fridays and during Lent were imposed in the year 998AD.

    Once again you need to get you facts straight. We do fast, sometimes on Fridays sometimes on other Holy days. Fasting can be found in Scripture and Catholics have fasted for two millennium.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    Imposed by popes said to be interested in the commerce of fish. (Bull, or permit to eat meat), some authorities say, began in the year 7OOAD. This is against the plain teaching of the bible. (Read Matt.15:10 1Cor. 10:25; 1Tim.4:1-3).

    I like that, a Pope of commerce. Ha! Where in the world does this come from?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    19. The Mass was developed gradually as a sacrifice; attendance made obligatory in the 11th century. The Bible teaches that the sacrifice of Christ was offered once and for all, and not to be repeated, but only commiserated in the Lord's Supper. (Read Heb.7:27; 9:26-28; 10: I 0- 14).

    No, sorry about that, but the mass is a real participation in Christ's sacrifice. Read John 6:55 –59

    He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna and are dead. He that eateth this bread shall live for ever.

    A real presence of Christ; no ambiguity, no allegories, simply eat, drink. Christ said, “I am the bread of life.” Not, I am 'like' the bread, or the bread is 'like' me.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    20. The celibacy of the priesthood was decreed by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII, in the year 1079AD. Jesus imposed no such rule, nor did any of the apostles. On the contrary, St. Peter was a married man, and St. Paul says that bishops were to have wife and children. (Read 1st Tim. 3:2,5, and 12: Matt 8:14-15).

    Read 1 Corinthians 7:7-8 and 32-35. Priests were ordained since Christ see St. Jerome, "In Isaiam", XIX, 18; St. Gregory the Great, "Moral.", XXXII, xx. Tertullian, Exhortation to Chastity 7.

    Your facts are wrong again.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    21. The Rosary, or prayer beads was introduced by Peter the Hermit, in the year 1090AD. Copied from Hindus and Mohammedans 1090AD. The counting of prayers is a pagan practice and is expressly condemned by Christ (Matt 6:5-13).

    Actually, it came from a 'cord of knots' used by monks to keep track of their prayer recitals.

    Your date may be generally correct. There was a Countess Godiva of Coventry (c. 1075) who left in a will a statue of Our Lady and what may be a prototype of what we view as a Rosary today that was a cord with bone knotted in the string. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Rosary

    Hail Mary: HAIL MARY, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women,
    and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, (this is Scriptural see Luke 1) Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death (this half is a petition to pry for us). Amen.



    Seditious those Scriptural verses, right?


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    22. The Inquisition of heretics was instituted by the Council of Verona in the year 1184. Jesus never taught the use of force to spread His religion ...1184AD.

    Should we discuss the hundreds of thousands killed by the Protestants in the 1500's and 1600's at the same time as we discuss the inquisition?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    23. The sale of Indulgence, commonly regarded as a purchase of forgiveness and a permit to indulge in sin, began in the year 1190AD. Christianity, as taught in the Bible, condemns such a traffic, and it was the protest against this traffic that brought on the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century.

    While indulgences were sold, the sale of indulgences was never sanctioned by Rome. It was a political ploy by German's to break from Roman dominance. In short, there was more propaganda then fact.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    24. The dogma of Transubstantiation was decreed by Pope Innocent III, in the year 1215AD. By this doctrine the priest pretends to perform a daily miracle by changing a wafer into the body of Christ, and then he pretends to eat Him alive in the presence of his people during Mass. The Bible condemns such absurdities; for the Lords Supper is simply a memorial of the sacrifice of Christ. The spiritual presence of Christ is implied in the Lord's Supper is simply a memorial of the sacrifice of Christ. The spiritual presence of Christ is implied in the Lord's Supper. (Read Luke 22:19-20; John 6:35; I Cor. 11:26).

    This is insulting; it is not an absurdity, unless you consider Christ's own words absurd. I would refer you to John 6:55-59 once again. Furthermore, writings from the 1st century refer to the “Real Presence” of Christ in Eucharist.

    JoeT
  • Mar 31, 2009, 09:37 PM
    Wondergirl

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    3. Veneration of angles and dead saints about 375
    We didn't even venerate "angles" in high school geometry! We may have venerated a hypoteneuse or two though...
  • Apr 1, 2009, 01:56 AM
    lenox263

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RickJ
    Amen, Artlady. Here is a similar exhortation from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

    The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

    18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

    19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

    20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

    23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

    25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

    27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

    28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

    29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

    30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

    31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

    32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


    14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?

    15And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

    16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

    18And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

    Ephesians 4

    4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    Any Religion not Identified WITH THE WORD OF GOD IN ALL ITS WAYS is not of God BUT OF THE SERPENT THE DEVIL(OPPOSER)

    LEVIATHAN - jOINED wITH THE Serpent
  • Apr 1, 2009, 01:56 AM
    artlady
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JoeT777 View Post
    When I see such definitive lists (all untrue of course) it always reminds me of Archbishop Fulton Sheen’s quote, “There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church— which is, of course, quite a different thing.”

    Not only are the criticisms wrong, but so are the facts. You would think if he was going to malign someone, the least he could do is get the facts right. Not only that but there’s so few of them. If lenox263 is a bigger person than what’s indicated by this list then he’ll find out for himself just how wrong he is?

    Wow, wax candles? I never heard that one! How does burning candles become a big thing? And I pray to God every day that there is a daily Mass! Are these really supposed to be criticisms? I wonder if Lenox263 got his criticisms mixed up with the attributes of the Church.

    I heard that the local First Baptist Church down the street just put in electric lights; I wonder what that does to them? I hope it’s not bad; I’ve got friends who go to Church there. If I sound like I’m being cynical it’s only because I am

    JoeT

    The quote by Archbishop Fulton Sheen is wonderful.It sums things up so well.I just thought the days of religious persecution were over. Shouldn't we be moving forward in our thinking?

    The candles,I assume are considered to be Pagan in nature :rolleyes:

    I live in a very multi diverse community and many of the African Americans here are Baptist and the loveliest people you would ever want to meet. I do not think Lenox 's stand is representative of them as a group. There will always be the fundamentalist few who give a poor representation of the group as a whole.
  • Apr 1, 2009, 02:02 AM
    lenox263

    The Scriptures Specifically explains that this system is the Antichrist.
  • Apr 1, 2009, 07:30 AM
    JoeT777
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    We didn't even venerate "angles" in high school geometry! We may have venerated a hypoteneuse or two though....

    You’ve got an acute eye, I skimmed right over it. Not to go off on a tangent, but being students of Euclid we do love angles around here. Not to be obtuse, but we avoid venerating Hypotenuse. I’ve discovered a dirty secret about his past; his past linage is rooted in product of two squares!

    JoeT
  • Apr 1, 2009, 07:51 AM
    lenox263
    The quote by Archbishop Fulton Sheen is wonderful.

    Such is human wisdom which is great in the eyes of human nature I don't take my inspiration from Archibishops,Priets, Pastors, - There is only one inspirator that is the word of God not men. I do not need any man to me or do you The Lord Specifically told of this in the last days of trying to please men rather than God AND LISTENING TO THE TEACHING OF CARNAL Mind rather than the inspirational words of the spirit. Which specifically says to flee from Traditions of men which makes the Word of God of none effect. The Lord who are his who follow his teaching.

    12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

    13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

    14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

    15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

    26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

    27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

    29If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

    Please don't quote from archibishops or any other Quote the Holy Scripture that is the only Authority received from God
  • Apr 1, 2009, 08:55 AM
    JoeT777
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
    The quote by Archbishop Fulton Sheen is wonderful… Please don't quote from Archbishops or any other Quote the Holy Scripture that is the only Authority received from God

    It should be understood that Catholics don't worship a book, the Bible. Rather, Catholic teaching is based on God's revelations to man found both in the Traditions of the Church and Holy Scriptures, they must both be in harmony with each other. Consequently, Catholics are not restricted to 'Bible only'.

    I'll be happy to stop writing if God's Truth makes you uncomfortable.

    Have you ever considered where Scripture came from? How did Holy Scripture come to you from the first Christians, who where Catholic, to today? Scripture is written Catholic Tradition.

    JoeT
  • Apr 1, 2009, 08:55 AM
    galveston

    The Anti-Christ will be a political leader.

    The false prophet will LOOK like a Christ (horns like a lamb) but will teach Satan's doctrines. (speak like a dragon)

    The whore riding on the beast will be the united world wide religion, headed up by --? Composed of ALL false and corrupted religions.

    Lenox sure poked the hornet's nest. We should all PERSONALLY search the Scriptures to verify that OUR faith is firmly rooted there. You can't take ANYONE'S word for what is right without checking it out. Even mine!
  • Apr 1, 2009, 09:08 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by galveston View Post
    Lenox sure poked the hornet's nest. We should all PERSONALLY search the Scriptures to verify that OUR faith is firmly rooted there. You can't take ANYONE'S word for what is right without checking it out. Even mine!

    Or Lenox's...

    And I do think God is a lot bigger than we give Him credit for. We continually stuff him into little boxes of our own interpretation.
  • Apr 1, 2009, 11:38 AM
    galveston
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JoeT777 View Post

    Have you ever considered where Scripture came from? How did Holy Scripture come to you from the first Christians, who where Catholic, to today? Scripture is written Catholic Tradition.

    JoeT

    If this is true then you have a problem.

    The RC traditions written in the Bible do not support the later RC traditions, and in some cases actually contradict them.

    What now?
  • Apr 1, 2009, 11:40 AM
    RickJ

    The Christian "Bible" was not recognized, as it is today, until about 300 years after Christ.

    Prior to the recognition of the "Canon", Christians read and revered many other writings from the generation of the Apostles.
  • Apr 1, 2009, 11:50 AM
    galveston
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RickJ View Post
    The Christian "Bible" was not recognized, as it is today, until about 300 years after Christ.

    Prior to the recognition of the "Canon", Christians read and revered many other writings from the generation of the Apostles.

    OK, but that still doesn't resolve the contradictions between what was written and later traditions.

    Your belief in Papal infallibility will forever keep you and I from agreeing. No bad feelings, I hope.

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