Hello Christians:

We have a nice argument going on about Obamas pastor. Most people think he's a separatist. I don't know that he's not...

But my questions are about YOU. Does YOUR church teach that America is a Christian nation? Certainly, my experience on these boards tell me that it’s not an unpopular belief among Christians. Do you believe it? If you don't, and you hear it in church, do you say anything about it? Do you stay in that church? If your church doesn't teach that, do you know of other churches that do? What do you do about that?

Do you think that the belief that America is a Christian nation is a belief that divides us, or brings us together? Do you care?

excon

Define Christian nation?

I think the idea that America is (or was) a Christian nation
1. Has never been true, so is a huge urban legend, and
2. Does more to divide than bring us together.

Our nation was founded with the presumption that there is a God but that's about as far as it goes.

Sort of related but sort of not: Even the founding fathers were unclear about their faith and even hypocritical in that they affirmed equality and "inalienable rights" yet many had slaves.

Hello Scott:

Well, that's the question, isn't it? If there are those who believe that we ARE Christian nation, maybe THEY can define it.

excon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RickJ

I think the idea that America is (or was) a Christian nation
1. Has never been true, so is a huge urban legend, and
2. Does more to divide than bring us together.

---

Hello Rick:

I don't know. I hope what you're saying is true. Frankly, my experience with what Christians believe is pretty much limited to these boards. I do, however, recall quite a few Christians declaring on these boards that America is, indeed, a Christian nation. No?

excon

You are right. That's why I call it a huge urban legend :)

Anyone who reads even a little can fairly easily find that very few of the founding fathers were even Christian at all. Most were Deists.

Hello again Rick:

I'm not arguing whether we ARE a Christian nation or not. It's clear that we're not. I just wondered what the people think who don't share our beliefs.

excon

Let me ease your mind. John Adams was one of the most Christian of the Founders . He signed a treaty of friendship with the Tripoli jihadists... ooops pirates . Article 11 of the treaty states :


As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries

We inherited a Judeo-Christian heritage no doubt about it .It is reflected in many of our laws and traditions .But it is also true that the Enlightement played a crucial role in our founding .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

let me ease your mind.

---

Tom,
If this forum allowed ratings I would give you a huge Greenie for that post. I think it was the perfect answer.

excon

You're simply mixing categories, a nation cannot be baptized; therefore it cannot be Christian nor can it have any other human qualities.

Hi readers I'm new to this so please forgive my mistakes.
In my opinion for what it's worth christianity and alike have a lot to answer for in today's society. It could be said that religion is the cause of most wars around the world which if you go to Gods teachings says quite clearly... THOUGH SHALL NOT KILL... There are those who wish to control humanity and I think many centuries ago it was a way of controlling the multitudes, those who preached the most and gained most followers became the more powerful, actually not unlike today thinking about it anyway there are those in religious followings that are out for pure personal gain which is very sad for many who are taken in by them parting with treasure possesions and so on.
God and the devil I personally prefer to call them GOOD AND BAD you only have to look around you to appreciate the GOOD we have I'm sure done things in our life that we new we shouln't have and have been punished one way or another for it that's the BAD
I know if I've gone against my intuition things always go wrong. I believe we were given this by the power of GOOD or if you like the choice to do right or wrong

Yes I do believe there is a GOOD GUY up there that sees all what ever you want to call him

My apologies if I've not quite got the hang of it I'll get there

I think to say we are a Christian nation is not accurate, although ideal, not reality. This nation was founded on Christian beliefs but has since been developed into a nation of morals and value based on personal preference. It is a smorgasboard of beliefs based on what works best for your preference. Not a nation that values the ideals of the Bible or follows the example of Christ. I believe it would unite us to possess values and morals that are consistent with the two most important commandments of what Christ taught; love your GOD with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. Clearly there are others but if we start with those that is a great start.

The ethic of reciprocity transcends christianity:
Versions of the Golden Rule in 21 world religions

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

The ethic of reciprocity transcends christianity:
Versions of the Golden Rule in 21 world religions

---

The split lies in who is your GOD... is it confuscious, buddha, allah, yourself, Jesus Christ, etc That is what divides the nation, a christian nation would all follow Jesus Christ

Hi Ex :)

No, I don't think we are nor would I want us to be. I want us to continue to be free to choose to be or not.

I like it separate and I think it should be separate.

I believe America was primarily a Christian nation, when it was first formed and during a lot of its early history, I believe Christian concepts were included in a large amount of our early laws. We see the 10 commandants even displayed in the Supreme Court of the US.
Most of the sessions of Congress are started in prayer, Most US presidents were sworn in with a bible. Until recently all military Chaplains were Christian.

I would say that since the majority of the US are not really Christian, a majority may still go to christian churches or belong, most have little real active faith that they live by.

I have said many times on the boards, that the US has not been a Christian nation for some time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by excon

Hello Christians:

We have a nice argument going on about Obamas pastor. Most people think he's a separatist. I dunno that he's not.....

But my questions are about YOU. Does YOUR church teach that America is a Christian nation? Certainly, my experience on these boards tell me that it's not an unpopular belief among Christians. Do you believe it? If you don't, and you hear it in church, do you say anything about it? Do you stay in that church? If your church doesn't teach that, do you know of other churches that do? What do you do about that?

Do you think that the belief that America is a Christian nation is a belief that divides us, or brings us together? Do you care?

excon

---

Truth... the United states main religion is Christianity and that is a fact. So I guess you could say it is a christian nation. But there are so many other cultures and religions in our country also. But the CHURCH! I have never heard them say that we are a christian nation. I hear them say that christians need to speak up and defend their religion.

I think it is how you define Christians. Having the love of Christ in your heart, and trying our very best to follow His teachings, then yes that would be my definition of a Christian.

However, I see so much the oppostite, that I would much prefer to be identified as an American, proud at that, and practice my faith in a free way, that was granted to me by those who keep it free and who have given their lives so that we may freely believe in whatever it is we believe.

I think to rubberstamp America in anyway - is isolating so many other wonderful Americans.

Let's keep Church and State separate.

( nice avaitar by the way Sasa :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sasachel

Truth...the United states main religion is Christianity and that is a fact.

---

Actually that's false. The United States doesn't have a religion main or otherwise. This is specifically stated in the Constitution. It may be true that a majority of Americans practice some form of Christianity, but that doesn't make it the "main" religion nor does it make the US a Christian nation.

I believe that the Founding Fathers believed in the Judeo-Christian ethic. That may be what most people mean when referring to the US as a christian nation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by excon

Hello Christians:

We have a nice argument going on about Obamas pastor. Most people think he's a separatist. I dunno that he's not.....

But my questions are about YOU. Does YOUR church teach that America is a Christian nation? Certainly, my experience on these boards tell me that it’s not an unpopular belief among Christians. Do you believe it? If you don't, and you hear it in church, do you say anything about it? Do you stay in that church? If your church doesn't teach that, do you know of other churches that do? What do you do about that?

Do you think that the belief that America is a Christian nation is a belief that divides us, or brings us together? Do you care?

excon

---

I believe the United States is a Christian nation because it was founded by Christians based on Christian values.
James Watkins: Were the Founding Fathers of the United States Christians?


One fundamental Christian value is the freedom of conscience.
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 1782

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RickJ

I think the idea that America is (or was) a Christian nation
1. Has never been true, so is a huge urban legend, and
2. Does more to divide than bring us together.

Our nation was founded with the presumption that there is a God but that's about as far as it goes.

Sort of related but sort of not: Even the founding fathers were unclear about their faith and even hypocritical in that they affirmed equality and "inalienable rights" yet many had slaves.

---

Although some of the founding Fathers were Deists, they were Christians in the sense that they believed and followed the teachings of Jesus Christ. And when they forged the Constitution, they based it on Christian principles.

Sincerely,

De Maria

But what does it matter. Sorry, I don't and I mean this with all truth... what does it matter any disrespect.
In the end, we know, we all will receive the information to make a choice to believe or not to believe.

I am so sorry to say that I just don't want the two to mix. If my President says I can do something, and my faith says otherwise, I hope I make the choice based on faith.

Some things need to stay earthly - Just my opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by De Maria

Although some of the founding Fathers were Deists, they were Christians in the sense that they believed and followed the teachings of Jesus Christ. And when they forged the Constitution, they based it on Christian principles.

Sincerely,

De Maria

---

What Christian principles? I'm not arguing with you (yet). But I'm wondering what Christain principles are specifically in the Constitution or that it was based on.

I'll also point out that the Founding Fathers whiffed on one of the most unChristian prinicples in founding this country. Can you guess what that was?

Scott be fair . Had they tried to resolve the question of slavery at the 1787 convention this country would never had been founded. I don't call it a wiff . It is more like a punt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

Scott be fair . Had they tried to resolve the question of slavery at the 1787 convention this country would never had been founded. I don't call it a wiff . It is more like a punt.

---

I totally agree. The time was not yet ripe to deal with that question. But that doesn't change the fact that it was still an unChristian principle that became part of this nation's birth.

But I do have a point in mind depending on how De Maria answers me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScottGem

I totally agree. The time was not yet ripe to deal with that question. But that doesn't change the fact that it was still an unChristian principle that became part of this nation's birth.

---

Upon what do you say that slavery is "...an unChristian principle..."?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by George_1950

Upon what do you say that slavery is "...an unChristian principle..."?

---

Are you saying that Slavery is a Christain principle?

Hello again:

Please. I'm not interested in WHY you think this is a Christian nation. We've been over that ground before, and you're patently wrong.

But, I really want you to answer the SOCIAL questions I raised about your belief - not the RELIGIOUS ones.

excon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by excon

Hello Christians:

We have a nice argument going on about Obamas pastor. Most people think he's a separatist. I dunno that he's not.....

But my questions are about YOU. Does YOUR church teach that America is a Christian nation? Certainly, my experience on these boards tell me that it’s not an unpopular belief among Christians. Do you believe it? If you don't, and you hear it in church, do you say anything about it? Do you stay in that church? If your church doesn't teach that, do you know of other churches that do? What do you do about that?

Do you think that the belief that America is a Christian nation is a belief that divides us, or brings us together? Do you care?

excon

---

I have never heard a pastor in the church I attend say we are a Christian nation; we have never recited the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag, that I recall. My impression is that most pastors are not concerned with ginning interest in politics. In fact, I've never heard a pastor say remember to vote.
Someone above made a good point: A nation can not be baptized, therefore it can't be a Christian. I suppose Constantine took a different view, but that was in another place and time. I believe most mainline Protestant and white churches hold to the separation of church and state. For all the palaver about President Bush and his faith, you never see an ad where he is saying go to church this Sunday, or anything like that.
The U.S. is primarily and fundamentally an offshoot of England. As such, it is a nation of law, not faith. The cornerstone, In my opinion, is the Declaration of Independence, upon which the constitution and laws protecting the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are based.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScottGem

Are you saying that Slavery is a Christain principle?

---

Dear Scott: Are you answering a question with a question?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by George_1950

I have never heard a pastor in the church I attend say we are a Christian nation; we have never recited the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag, that I recall. My impression is that most pastors are not concerned with ginning interest in politics. In fact, I've never heard a pastor say remember to vote.
Someone above made a good point: A nation can not be baptized, therefore it can't be a Christian. I suppose Constantine took a different view, but that was in another place and time. I believe most mainline Protestant and white churches hold to the separation of church and state. For all the palaver about President Bush and his faith, you never see an ad where he is saying go to church this Sunday, or anything like that.
The U.S. is primarily and fundamentally an offshoot of England. As such, it is a nation of law, not faith. The cornerstone, IMHO, is the Declaration of Independence, upon which the constitution and laws protecting the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are based.

---

Very Well said George.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScottGem

What Christian principles?

---

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.


Here we see that God is recognized as the Creator and Chief Legislator from whom all good things come. We see also a respect for due process. And a respect for the dignity of man. These are all Christian principles.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,

Christian principle.

that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,

Christian principle

that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...

Christian principles

I could go on and on, but this should be sufficient.

Quote:

---

I'm not arguing with you (yet).

---

Ready when you are.

Quote:

---

But I'm wondering what Christain principles are specifically in the Constitution or that it was based on.

---

In the Constitution itself? The very idea of a government based on the rule of law is a Christian principle.

In addition,

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union,

Unity of people which has always been the will of God.

establish Justice,

Christian principle

insure domestic Tranquility,

Essentially seeking of peace. Christian principle.

provide for the common defence,

Defence of home, Christian principle.

promote the general Welfare,

Alleviate suffering, Christian principle

and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

The right to govern freely. Christian principle.

Quote:

---

I'll also point out that the Founding Fathers whiffed on one of the most unChristian prinicples in founding this country. Can you guess what that was?

---

Slavery is not a principle but a sin. Adultery also existed during that time and prostitution. Those are things which could not, at the time, be legislated out of existence. In fact, slavery, prostitution and all types of sin, exist even today. And their existence does not undo the basic foundation upon which this country was built.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Hello George:

Cool. I can scratch you off my list. However, there's a BIG segment of Christiandom that believes other than you. I want to hear from them...

Or, maybe they're not so big. Maybe there's only a few. But, I somehow think there's a LOT.

So, in all the time you've been a Christian, you've never heard from any of them that this is a Christian nation?? Hmmmm. I'm not a Christian, and I hear it all the time... What makes me so special? And, if you did hear it, I wonder if you mentioned the Declaration to them...

This is kind of like the Jewish question. Everybody has a Jewish friend. But, when you do the math, you'll see that there ain't enough of us to go around. Somebody is lying...

excon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by excon

Hello George:

Cool. I can scratch you off my list. However, there's a BIG segment of Christiandom that believes other than you. I wanna hear from them....

Or, maybe they're not so big. Maybe there's only a few. But, I somehow think there's a LOT.

So, in all the time you've been a Christian, you've never heard from any of them that this is a Christian nation???? Hmmmm. I'm not a Christian, and I hear it all the time.... What makes me so special? And, if you did hear it, I wonder if you mentioned the Declaration to them.....

This is kinda like the Jewish question. Everybody has a Jewish friend. But, when you do the math, you'll see that there ain't enough of us to go around. Somebody is lying..............

excon

---

Have I told you lately... that I love you. :) I promise you I have several Jewish friends and I love them dearly and they love me :).

Ex - I promise you, I have never heard a priest say this is a Christian country.

God forgive me, but where do they get off? This is how religious wars get started... at least I think.

How can they claim, something THAT IS NOT THEIRS to claim. It is all of ours.

Just ask them to sit down and pass the popcorn. ;)

Love you

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by excon

Hello Christians:

Do you think that the belief that America is a Christian nation is a belief that divides us, or brings us together? Do you care?

excon

---

Sorry, I jumped to the wrong conclusion.

Christianity always divides people because it makes them decide good over evil, right over wrong.

Matthew 10 34 Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword. 35 For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And as a man's enemies shall be they of his own household.

That is why this country is hated throughout the world and that is why Christianity is despised. We are our Master's disciples:

John 15 20 Remember my word that I said to you: The servant is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you: if they have kept my word, they will keep yours also.

But if a country embraces Christianity that makes a country stronger because by doing so, they call down the blessings of God:

Deuteronomy 28 2 And all these blessings shall come upon thee and overtake thee: yet so if thou hear his precepts,

Sincerely,

De Maria

Maybe some Jews have lot's of Christian friends ?

Ex ;I will also say that at Catholic Churches there is never talk of this being a Christian nation. But there are many Christians who think we are apostate anyway .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by De Maria

Christianity always divides people because it makes them decide good over evil, right over wrong.

---

De Maria with the beautiful name... Nooooo it's people who divide, not those that love Christ.

Are you telling me, that you ALWAYS choose right over wrong, you knees never weaken?

Of course that is not what you are saying. We all try to do right over wrong and let the evil be handled by God, not us. We have too much work on ourselves to do.

We have to be careful and not stand on a pedestal and look down on people - because I think that has an element of evil in it. And that is not what I believe God wants from us.

There is only one God. The job has been filled.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by George_1950

I have never heard a pastor in the church I attend say we are a Christian nation; we have never recited the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag, that I recall. My impression is that most pastors are not concerned with ginning interest in politics. In fact, I've never heard a pastor say remember to vote.
Someone above made a good point: A nation can not be baptized, therefore it can't be a Christian. I suppose Constantine took a different view, but that was in another place and time. I believe most mainline Protestant and white churches hold to the separation of church and state. For all the palaver about President Bush and his faith, you never see an ad where he is saying go to church this Sunday, or anything like that.
The U.S. is primarily and fundamentally an offshoot of England. As such, it is a nation of law, not faith. The cornerstone, IMHO, is the Declaration of Independence, upon which the constitution and laws protecting the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are based.

---

Have you ever heard the Battle hymn of the Republic sung in your Church. We sing it every fourth of July:

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;

This is from the Bible. The Lord refers to Jesus:
Luke 2 29 Now thou dost dismiss thy servant, O Lord, according to thy word in peace; 30 Because my eyes have seen thy salvation,

He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;

Vintage means wine. Wine is the fruit of the grape.

Apocalypse 14 10 He also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mingled with pure wine in the cup of his wrath, and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the sight of the holy angels, and in the sight of the Lamb.

He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;

Ezechiel 29 8 Therefore thus saith the Lord God: Behold, I will bring the sword upon thee: and cut off man and beast out of thee.


His truth is marching on.

John 14 6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.


Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His truth is marching on.

John 1 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Psalms 20 6 His glory is great in thy salvation: glory and great beauty shalt thou lay upon him.

Psalms 104

1 Alleluia. Give glory to the Lord, and call upon his name: declare his deeds among the Gentiles.

This hymn has been sung for centuries in the United States. I'm pretty sure it assumes belief in Christ.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by De Maria

Have you ever heard the Battle hymn of the Republic sung in your Church. We sing it every fourth of July:This hymn has been sung for centuries in the United States. I'm pretty sure it assumes belief in Christ.

---

Hello, De Maria:

Well, there you have it. I've sung that hymm before. I don't believe in Christ. I'm going to sing it again too. It's got a great beat.

excon

Yup and Irving Berlin was a great Christian also . "God Bless America......"