I am a 21 year old guy. Before your brainwashed conformed mind labels me a pedophile, let me present my case.

1) I can get a girl my own age. Trouble is, I don't want anyone but this girl. We share the same values, and view on life. She is very mature for her own age. I never looked at a girl her age this way before, and never expected it to happen.

2) When we met, I thought she was at least 18. She looks older than she is, and I look younger than 21. We both look about 17/18. When we found out each others age, I told her we had to stop talking, and we did for a week. However, we were both depressed and missed each other and began talking again.

3) I have made it very clear to her that I would gladly wait 3 and a half years for her to become of age before having sex, and I mean that. I have no expectations or demands. I just need her in my life. I told her I want to meet her parents and ask for their approval before getting more serious.

4) She loves me. Many people will say "A 14 year old doesn't know what love is." Who really does? I asked her why she loved me and she gave me all the right reasons. If she didn't, I would have stopped this. She gets plenty of attention from boys her own age and could get someone better looking than me.

And who says she can't know? American values? That's just code for white middle-class prejudices and discrimination, justification for greed and hatred. I believe in giving everyone, as I encounter them, one at a time the full value of their dignity and their honor in the world, without premature judgment. I call that a value.

What does America know about love? This is a country where nearly 50% of all marriages end in divorce. A country where thousands of men spend thousands of dollars on prostitutes in marriage, and women have their clitoris's forcibly removed to decrease sexual pleasure to help resist cheating on their husbands. A county that watches who wants to marry a millionare, and the bachelor. I don't think American values are the best reference on what love is.

5) Bottom line is, I could NEVER hurt her. Ever. I would never influence her to do something she doesn't want to do or corrupt her morals. I want to able to walk around and hold her hand. To cuddle up on the couch and watch a movie. To hear her wonderful giggle and look in to her eyes. Does that make me a bad guy? If so, COME AT ME.

Interesting that you label yourself in this manner before you've even started.
The real issue here is that you are an ADULT involved with a CHILD, pure and simple.
I'm not even going to start talking about "feelings", but you are both doing each other a disservice in fooling yourselves that this will continue.

Interesting that you feel the need to justify this to a bunch of anonymous people, so you clearly understand why this is wrong.
If you truly do "love" her, then leave her alone until such time as you will NOT get into serious trouble with this pursuit.

Please get professional help you need serious help since you try to justify being a pedophile.

Care to explain? Be more specific?

A generic answer like that is of no help and lacks any critical thinking whatsoever. I tried to address that school of thought by saying

"American values? That's just code for white middle-class prejudices and discrimination, justification for greed and hatred. I believe in giving everyone, as I encounter them, one at a time the full value of their dignity and their honor in the world, without premature judgment. I call that a value."

Also, I am not a pedophile if I am not having, or perusing sex with her.

Every situation is different, care to try another answer?

Yes, you want and desire a 14 year old child. You know the age and can not move on.

Next don't matter if you are in almost any nation with any moral standards at all, a adult does not chase after a minor child.

Your rambling of desire shows a need for professional help since it lacks any common sense and tries to justify illegal actions.

You are since you know you are, desire for a minor child is all one needs to know.

Are people in real life giving you grief over this? What do her parents say about your friendship? Why do you feel the need to come to an Internet site to defend your feelings for this girl? What's really going on?

I didn't label myself anything. Id be a damn fool to not acknowledge our ages. We have been at this a while and our feelings aren't going anywhere.

I don't need to "justify" it to anonymous people. I am still somewhat on the fence about the whole thing. [edited] It will come to change how everyone sees me. Like I said, I don't want to hurt her, or waste her time, but I do believe she has real feelings for me. On the other hand, I do love her. I respect her, her age, her family, and our society, and I would continue to do so in a real relationship with her. Maybe this is my chance to be happy. Life is way to short to not try being happy.

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Originally Posted by forksandspoons

I dont need to "justify" it to anonymous people.

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But don't you see? You're doing exactly that. (And stirring up a hornet's nest in the process.)

Have you been to college and/or are working in a job you enjoy? Does your young lady friend have plans yet for her future?

Sorry frchuck, until you can pose an intelligent point as to how I am lacking common sense I can't take you seriously. I believe I made valid points, while all you say is "illegal". It is NOT illegal to date. I already expressed my will to wait for her to become of age before engaging in a sexual relationship. I value love much, much more than sex.

Thank you wondergirl. Maybe subconsciously I am trying to justify it, but I need to talk to someone about this. We are keeping our relationship hush hush for now. We usually just talk on the phone.

I went to college for 2 years. Currently, I am in a transitional period. I work full time saving money while living at home. I am not ready to start a family and be a "grown up" (for lack of a better word). I won't be for a few years, and she would be an adult by then.

She is a dancer, and plans on going to dance school after high school.

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Originally Posted by forksandspoons

I need to talk to someone about this.

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Talk away! I'm listening. Do her parents know you?

You do realize you are playing with fire if the two of you are doing this "hush hush" -- eventually her parents will figure out what's going on (unless they are not good parents).

So does her parents welcome you with open arms when you go to pick up her for a date ?

Are you ready to go to the JR PROM with her

We are not sneaking around. I don't see her in person often. That would be selfish, and unfair to her, and her family. I want to be able to see her though. Before I do that, I would meet her parents. If you can't tell, I really am I good guy. Not a stereotypical 21 year old sex starved beer drinking madman. I would present myself honestly. If they rejected me, I would be unhappy, but respect their decision. She does have good parents. They are very involved and caring from what she tells me.

Yes I would go to the JR prom with her. I want to go see all of her dance recitals, even though I know nothing about it. I want to be a good BF for her because she deserves it. I don't care what people would think of me, as long as her, and her parents approve.

I would say first talk to her parents before anything else. If they say no, stay away from her until she is legally an adult. I respect your decision to stay away sexualy, but be aware that in the next few years she is going to want to do things that combat this. That will be a struggle -I believe your willingness to stay away, just be prepared. As to what to expect from her dancing I can definitely help you there. Dance recitals and competitions are pure chaos. She will mostly be running around like a chicken with her head cut off in some of the craziest costumes and more than likely be extremely nervous. If she is the nervous type that says things she doesn't mean because she is going crazy; be sure to ignore it for that day-you will make it worse when she doesn't even realize what she is saying. There is also the chance that she is not that type and you have nothing to worry about. Above all be supportive and let her know she is the best one out there!

I am a mother of a daughter, although my daughter is 18 now, she once was 14 and I can tell you what to expect when you meet her parents, but I'm not sure it is something you will want to hear.

You're a good writer, forks, and seem to be a logical thinker (once you get off your defensive soapbox). I agree that you really need to find ways to get to know her parents and somehow let them in on how you feel about their daughter.

Is she their only daughter or the first-born one, which place in the family will give you another hurdle to jump?

Your young friend is going to be experiencing many life-changing situations over the next years as she goes through high school and college or a dance school. (You may remember how you were at 14 and how much you have matured over the years.) And even if your hormones have settled down, hers will be going wild, so be aware of that.

Please keep us up to date if you talk with her parents about this.

Yes J9, I would very much like to hear. Take in to account what I am saying, and keep in mind I would follow any of their rules to prove myself. Not that looks are of major importance, but I have a clean appearance. I look about 17 or 18. I am often told I have an honest face. Im not sure if that makes a difference, but I feel like some dope with long hair, an ungroomed beard, and raggy clothes wouldn't even get his foot in the door.

How did you meet her?

Do YOUR parents know about this?

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Originally Posted by forksandspoons

Yes J9, I would very much like to hear. Take in to account what I am saying, and keep in mind I would follow any of their rules to prove myself. Not that looks are of major importance, but I have a clean appearance. I look about 17 or 18. I am often told I have an honest face. Im not sure if that makes a difference, but I feel like some dope with long hair, an ungroomed beard, and raggy clothes wouldnt even get his foot in the door.

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I believe you are a well spoken young gentleman and your intentions are good. However, yeah, there it is, that dreaded HOWEVER, you are too old to be dating a child of this age.

No matter your appearance, you would not get your foot in our door when my daughter was 14 without staring down a loaded .44, and probably not even now that she is 18. Her father is not going to believe your intentions. Her father is going to remember what it was like to be your age and he will do all he can to protect his daughter.

I do have to wonder what the two of you have in common.

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Originally Posted by forksandspoons

and women have their clitoris's forcibly removed to decrease sexual pleasure to help resist cheating on their husbands.

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Please clear this up for me. I am a registered nurse specializing in women's health here in America. This practice is illegal in America.

So, please come clean now. Are you a 21 year old man? Are you really in the U.S?

I've read through this thread and I must say I'm somewhat dismayed by your attitude. From reading your initial post, I got the impression of a nice guy caught up in something that you felt was wrong in some ways but right in others. But some of your responses have gone over the line to rude and insulting and have been removed.

I'm going to chalk those up to the emotions you feel.

I believe you are sincere though. I think you really have feeling for this girl that go beyond lust, so I don't think you are a pedophile or even in danger of being one.

But I think you are being unfair to this girl. She is a child (no matter how mature you think she is). She needs time to grow up and not be saddled with someone your age infatuated (or otherwise) with her. So my advice to you is to back off.

I don't know how you met her or what the relationship with the family is, but I would wait 3-4 years. Maybe continue to be on the peripheries of her life. But not maintain a romantic relationship. Once she turns 17 (or better yet 18), then you can pursue that romantic relationship.

Thanks wonder. Writing and language was always my strong suit. Im hoping my sharp tongue will give me a punchers chance when I meet her parents.

She is a middle child. She has one older brother, and a younger sister.

I know our relationship would be unconventional, but I think it can be good for her. I can try to help her along the way as I have a little more life experience. She can talk to me about things she can not with her parents, or horny immature teenage boys.

Like I said, she is very mature. Ill try to keep this short..

She told me a story of a girl at her school that gets picked on everyday. Its so bad the girl eats lunch alone in the bathroom. At that age, once a group starts picking on someone, everyone joins in, just to be cool. My girls best friend is one of the girls who teases the bullying victim. She is the only one who stands up for the poor girl, even to her best friend. She isn't friends with the victim, she knows it is the right thing to do. I know many girls my age who would join in on the teasing. That is not the act of a 14 year old. She is above that, and she will make a remarkable woman some day. That is why I love her.

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Originally Posted by forksandspoons

Thanks wonder. Writing and language was always my strong suit. Im hoping my sharp tongue will give me a punchers chance when I meet her parents.

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But now you've just put a lie to that. I'm guessing English isn't your first language, because saying your "sharp tongue was always my strong suit" would make that the absolutely worst way to sway her parents to your way of thinking about their daughter. And what's "a punchers chance"?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

But now you've just put a lie to that. I'm guessing English isn't your first language, because saying your "sharp tongue was always my strong suit" would make that the absolutely worst way to sway her parents to your way of thinking about their daughter. And what's "a punchers chance"?

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I'm curious as well WG. Also curious about the mention of the removal of the clitoris here in the U.S.

Are my spidey senses tingling?

ScottGem: I believe the only rude post I made was directed towards the priest. His comments were unconstructive, and I was looking for real discussion. Please don't judge me by that alone. Your concern about her needing "time to grow up" is my biggest concern. I only want the best for her. I think I can help her and be a very positive part of her life, but what if Im wrong? I would never forgive myself.

J9: Thank you for your imput. I just hope her parents give me a chance.

Wondergirl: Friend of a friend. Started talking one day and before we knew it 2 hours had passed. My parents do not know yet. I think its only fair her parents go first.

And lol, I wouldn't say that to her parents. I just mean, I can speak like a well manorred kid.

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Originally Posted by forksandspoons

Thanks wonder. Writing and language was always my strong suit. Im hoping my sharp tongue will give me a punchers chance when I meet her parents.

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Hopefully this a difference of idioms. Because a "sharp tongue" in American English has a negative connotation. In fact you have exhibited a "sharp tongue" in some of your responses in this thread and if you act the same way when you meet her parents you are in for trouble. You need to be polite and self-effacing.

You also still haven't explained how you met her. Once you found out her true age, you should have IMMEDIATELY backed off until you cleared the relationship with her parents. And if her parents do NOT support the relationship, you need to back off.

Uhhh.. Yes english is my first and only language. Im not sure what you are getting at. I was born and raised in Pennsylvania.

Like many illegal things, clitoris removal takes place here in the usa. I don't want this to turn in to a debate about female genitals or my language (which I still don't understand). I have no reason to lie. That is why I came to the internet, to have an anonymous, true discussion about this, as Ive been all alone on this, and it has been driving me crazy.

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Originally Posted by forksandspoons

Uhhh..? Yes english is my first and only language. Im not sure what you are getting at. I was born and raised in Pennsylvania.

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Then your use of the phrase "sharp tongue" is puzzling.

Scott: I am aware of my surroundings. I know there is a time and place for that type of talk. My sharp tongue is just as capable of saying something loving as it is hurting. There was no pun intended. I would handle my meet with them like a job interview.

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Originally Posted by forksandspoons

Like many illegal things, clitoris removal takes place here in the usa.

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Interesting, as it was banned in 1996 and those that do it can be jailed.

Reasons OP would not be allowed to date my daughter:

"1. I am not a pedophile if I am not having, or perusing sex with her. Need to explain himself - "I'm not a murderer." Then why did you mention it?"

"2. I dont see her in person often. That would be selfish, and unfair to her, and her family. I want to be able to see her though. Before I do that, I would meet her parentsdon't need to "justify" it to anonymous people." Once you post on an open forum you DO need to justify your actions. No one here would have even known about this dating situation if you had not posted. Doesn't see her in person OFTEN and hasn't met her parents. So the girl is sneaking out or meeting him without the knowledge of her parents?

"3. I am in a transitional period. I work full time saving money while living at home." Lives with his parents and is in transition. Reminds me of my ex-husband who was in a "transitional" period while looking for himself for 4 years. Note - ex-husband.

"4. clitoris removal takes place here in the usa." So does murder. That doesn't make it legal AND if you have direct knowledge that this surgery is being performed and this isn't just a "fact" you read in some rag magazine you owe it to women in this Country to notify the Police.

Where are parents when their 14 year olds are on the computer?

This is a true and honest discussion - you want people to agree with you and with one exception, I don't think that's going to happen.

This relationship is inappropriate - maybe she's very mature and you're very immature but a relationship that involves seeing someone at that age without parental consent is playing with dynamite.

You ARE aware, of course, that if her parents get wind of your "relationship" and decide to press charges against you (with or without her consent) you could be tried for rape and found guilty whether you were actually having sex. It happens when the parents are angry enough.

Then there's always the charge of parental interference if you are "dating" and the parents don't know.

What are you transitioning to and from?

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Originally Posted by forksandspoons

Uhhh..? Yes english is my first and only language. Im not sure what you are getting at. I was born and raised in Pennsylvania.

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Then your use of the phrase "sharp tongue" is puzzling.

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Originally Posted by forksandspoons

Like many illegal things, clitoris removal takes place here in the usa. I dont want this to turn in to a debate about female genitals or my language (which I still dont understand). I have no reason to lie. That is why I came to the internet, to have an anonymous, true discussion about this, as Ive been all alone on this, and it has been driving me crazy.

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Clitoral removal is a cultural thing that is NOT American. Don't know where you even got that idea. It does take place in the US, but among immigrants. You were the one who brought up the issue to justify your claim that Americans don't know about real love. A point I disagree with. But, if you want to make that point then why do you, as a native, think you have a better handle on things? And, if you want to make that point, why do you bring up things that are very unAmerican to justify that point?

This is mostly about you, not the girl, not American values. This is about you, as an adult, trying to have an adult relationship with a child. So the question now is, when are you going to talk to her parents and ask their permission for this relationship?

Forks let me ask you this and please answer honestly. Would you let your 14 year old daughter (or sister) date a 25 year old man? Add into it that the main fact you would hear (along with everyone in this thread) is your age. Not how well dressed you are (which doesn't hurt) or how smart you are. If your little sister came to you about this what would you think?

JUDY:

1) When I mention the age difference of 21 and 14, what do you think of? Not mentioning the word "pedophile" would be like not mentioning the big pink elephant sitting in the middle of the living room.

2) I don't need to justify it to you. You are ignoring things I have said. Im alone on this. Its been driving me crazy and I need someone to talk to about it. Ive talked to her about it but I don't want to constantly bug her about it. And no, she has never snuck out to see me. I haven't seen her since I learned her real age I shut it down but the feeling didn't go away, so we began talking on the phone.

3) I am transitioning from a medical condition that required multiple surgeries, and over a year to fully heal. I intended on going back to school next semester.

4) can we drop the clitoris remark please? It is irrelevant.

5) I doubt very seriously I could be charged with anything. And if I was it would never stick. No opportunity to have sex.

You just want to assume the worst of me.

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Originally Posted by forksandspoons

4) can we drop the clitoris remark please? It is irrelevant.

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It is not irrelevant. It speaks volumes of your culture and beliefs. What is your cultural background by the way?

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Originally Posted by forksandspoons

5) I doubt very seriously I could be charged with anything. And if I was it would never stick. No opportunity to have sex.

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Oh, if it were my daughter you were after it would stick. I'd make sure of that. I'd move the moon and the stars to make sure you never saw daylight again.

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Originally Posted by forksandspoons

2) I dont need to justify it to you. You are ignoring things I have said. Im alone on this. Its been driving me crazy and I need someone to talk to about it. Ive talked to her about it but I dont want to constantly bug her about it. And no, she has never snuck out to see me. I havent seen her since I learned her real age I shut it down but the feeling didnt go away, so we began talking on the phone.

4) can we drop the clitoris remark please? It is irrelevant.

5) I doubt very seriously I could be charged with anything. And if I was it would never stick. No opportunity to have sex.

You just want to assume the worst of me.

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2) YOU came here asking for advice. So yes YOU do have to justify your actions to anyone here who asks. You are talking to us about it and we are talking to you. The problem here is you don't want to listen to anything that you don't agree with. And, again, I have to question your attitude here.

4) You were the one who brought it up. So just admit you were wrong and it will be dropped.

5) You are wrong. While it would be unlikely to be charged with a sex crime, there are crimes that you could be charged with if you go against her parents.

Jam, an 11 year difference is much different from our 7 year difference. I will change your question to apply to myself.

I would give the guy a chance. I would sit down with him, and talk to him. See what he is about. Honestly, 90% of guys wouldn't pass my test. Most guys are in fact *******s and ruin potential love for someone like me. If he did pass the test, I would set strict rules, maybe only allow them to be together at home. If trust built up, I would perhaps allow them to go out with a strict curfew, and mandatory phone calls.

Im not a very traditional person, and I have no idea what to expect from these people.

Oh my bad... I thought you said you were 25. Thanks for answering, though. I would agree with your restrictions.. I will say, though, that I don't think I would have any say in the matter because the guy I'm with now would be cleaning his gun during your talk. It just depends on the parent.
Advice: be 100% honest with them to build trust... answer every question they ask honestly.

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Originally Posted by forksandspoons

35) I doubt very seriously I could be charged with anything. And if I was it would never stick. No opportunity to have sex.

You just want to assume the worst of me.

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You are so very, very wrong - but if you think you can "see" her and "date" her and her parents MIGHT try to press charges but they won't stick, then keep on keeping on. And the charge of parental interference - you're in contact with her. I actually went to law school (as did one of the Mods) so I'm not making this up as I go along.

"We" don't know you. "We" only know what you post and THAT'S the ruler by which you are measured.

Where were you meeting her before you learned her true age? That went unanswered.

Actually, it was answered. I feel like all you see are the numbers 21, and 14, because you have overlooked certain things.

I didn't know her age at first. When I did, I told her we had to stop talking, and we did for a week.

I also said, that if I get a no go from her parents, I would back off.

What is your real objection? Can't you see I care for her?

I can't see that you do or don't care for her. My opinion? If you cared for her you'd meet her parents and if they don't approve I'd stay out of her life. Of course, that's just my opinion - which I think is why you posted here.

Again - where did you meet her and how did you continue to have contact with her?

My objection? I wouldn't want MY daughter "in love" at 14. People you love at 14 are NOT the people you love at 20 or 30 or 40 with very few exceptions.

So you told her you had to stop talking. That lasted for a week.

You think no one can make a false accusation. You might find out about that.

You are talking to her? By phone? Computer? Where are her parents during all of these conversations?

And I would like to know more about the genital mutiliation which YOU brought up. Where is this happening? Has it been reported? Is it something you read in the National Inquirer?

I always wonder when people answer these posts how many 14-year old daughters they've had? The people who are not terribly happy with the OP tend to be those who have children. The people who think it's a great idea tend to be those who don't.

And I'll name names - I am NOT referring to Wondergirl who gives sound advice and has given that same sound advice here.

Thank you for your input judy. There is no sense in us going back and forth. I will never convince you, and that's OK. I don't expect everyone to approve. As a matter of fact, I am very pleased with the amount of support I have got. I was expecting nothing but responses like frchuck. I appreciate you all for hearing me out, and I hope her parents give me the same chance.

There seems to be quite a few intelligent people here. I will be sure to return. Anymore feedback in the meantime would be appreciated.