Ask Me Help Desk - Companionate Love

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Companionate Love

Brief summary: I feel that I truly love my girlfriend, but I'm not physically attracted to her, so I very rarely want to have sex. I personally do not have a problem with this, but my girlfriend does.

Background: Ten years ago, we started becoming close friends and eventually became best friends. Two years after that, we decided to become a couple, and have been together off but mostly on for over eight years now. The problem is I have never been physically attracted to her, even though many others think she is considered good looking.

In university, I did actually take a course on human sexuality and intimate relationships. I learned about Sternberg's Triangular Theory of Love and I really buy into that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangular_theory_of_love

Basically, for me personally, what I have for my girlfriend is very strong "companionate love". I have a very deep affection towards her, and I am fully ready, willing and wanting to marry and spend the rest of my life with her, but I feel no passion towards her. However, I am completely fine with how things are.

For her, I know she also has a very deep affection towards me, and at times she has indicated she does want to marry me as well. She wants to have sex everyday, and I can't be sure, but I have a feeling it's not so much that this stems from her passion towards me, but rather that she has the desire to feel "wanted". Very possibly, she may have "companionate love" with me as well, but she is not satisfied with just that and wants the "passion" element there as well. She desires the attention of being wanted and lusted after, but I can't give this to her.

My definition of "true love" is based on intimacy and commitment, where the passion is just a bonus. The problem is her definition of true love is different, and she believes there must be passion for there to be true love. Because of this, she does not think I truly love her.

I believe, and I've tried explaining to her, that the passion element is one that generally does not last in longterm relationships. I think that most of the successful relationships and marriages are based on companionate love, which is what we undoubtedly both have. I wanted to believe that her desire for passion is something that will fade over time, but that just doesn't seem to be the case.

If it were left to me to initiate sex, then I would probably only do it once or twice a month. But she wants it everyday, so she tries initiating it with me, and sometimes I'll relent and just do it without much resistance, but sometimes I would really not feel like it and she would then be very upset with me. Because of her initiating, I estimate we probably have sex between eight and ten times per month, or about twice per week on average. Sometimes we may do it 3-4 days in a row, and other times we may go a week without doing it. If she had her way, we would have sex at least five times per week, so 20+ times per month. I just simply can't meet her sexual needs.

Another thing that makes her more upset about this is the fact that I prefer to masturbate than to have sex with her. I don't do it in front of her, only when I'm alone, and sometimes when she is sleeping. I don't always have opportunities to masturbate, but if I had unlimited privacy, I generally would masturbate once a day, sometimes twice. Usually, I would masturbate to pictures of other girls that I find online, mostly models. I seem to be quite picky about who I find attractive, so it's generally the same few girls that turn me on, and I constantly look for new pictures or videos of them online, and when I find some, I get especially excited.

I don't actually want to be in a relationship with any of these girls, but their looks just turn me on. My girlfriend doesn't understand or doesn't care about that fact that I don't have feelings for them, and gets very jealous of these girls and upset with me because they turn me on and she doesn't.

She wants me to never masturbate, and never look at those girls anymore, but I don't think I can get myself to do that, nor do I think it's a reasonable request.

Another factor here is when I masturbate, I generally like to just get off as quickly as possible - usually within a couple minutes. When we have sex, not surprisingly, she does take longer to climax, so often it will take at least 20-30 minutes. Sometimes, I feel frustrated when she takes too long, and the longer it drags out, the more frustrated I get.

I hope I haven't left out anything significant here, and if you have any questions, please do ask and I will try answering them to the best of my ability.

Any insights you may have on this situation is greatly appreciated.

Thanks for your time.

Are you gay? Seriously.

There are a lot men who are emotionall yattracted to women... but physically to men. Nothing wrong with that.

Also - YES jerking off can ruin the sex. WHy do you need to do that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildcat21

Are you gay? Seriously.

There are a lot men who are emotionall yattracted to women...but physically to men. Nothing wrong with that.

Also - YES jerking off can ruin the sex. WHy do you need to do that?

I hope your response isn't indicative of the general quality of help that I can expect to get here, because that above is pure garbage that offers zero assistance.

No, I am not gay. Seriously. If I was, then wouldn't I be masturbating while looking at or thinking about guys? That is not the case. I ONLY have sexual desires for women. In my life, I have been seriously infatuated with two or three females, of which one of them was my girlfriend's other best friend (and she fully knows of that), but that's neither here nor there.

Why do I need to masturbate? I thought I made it pretty clear in my original post.

1.) I don't find my girlfriend sexually attractive, but there are some other girls I do find sexually attractive
2.) I prefer to get off quickly, but when I have sex with the girlfriend, I have to wait until she's done before I go.

Ok, you wanted an honest answer. You need more help then can be offered here. Go get some counseling - you don't sound like you want to face reality.

Face some realities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildcat21

Ok, you wanted an honest answer. You need more help then can be offered here. Go get some counseling - you don't sound like you want to face reality.

Face some realities.

What is this "reality" that you think I can't face?

Please tell me on what premise you have to believe I must be gay?

Seriously, you're considered an expert here? That must be a joke.

Yes, maybe I might need professional counselling, and I have considered doing that, but I thought maybe I might be able to get some sort of help here first... but with people like you here, I'm beginning to think that maybe I was wrong.

Hi Soul and welcome.

It must have been very difficult for you to reveal something so private.
I think the advice above, as far as seeking professional help with this situation is good advice.

Seeking professional help with this is nothing to be ashamed of, in fact, it would more than likely be the best thing for you in the long run.

I have a feeling this has nothing to do with the fact that you are not attracted to your girlfriend, your difficulties could be, more with something inside of you, than just sheerly an attraction issue.

Sorry if that sounds like I am saying there is something wrong with you, that is not what I am saying, but just from reading your post, there does seem to be something that needs to be tended to on a more one -on-one basis.

The current situation is really not fair to either one of you, especially your girlfriend. Intimacy, not necessarily the sex part of it, but the passion and intimacy, is a precious part of a relationship. If your girlfriend senses that you are not attraced to her, you will have even greater troubles down the road.

It is good you came here to get a feel of your situation. It may not be what you expected to hear, but it is a first step and a very good one for you to at least recognize there is a problem.

You love this girl deeply, it is worth considering seeking some assistance as to the why? I fear that if you don't find out if this is actually a problem or to what extent, you could loose this girl that you love, find yourself in another relationship, with the same problem.

I do wish you the best. Stick around the folks on here are awesome and truly do wish to help people.

Absolutely perfect advice allheart, sorry have to spread it so can't rate you.

I actually deleted a response I made earlier because I had to work out how to answer it properly and was unsure of the usefullness of my response.

But allheart has given you some valuable advice here so please listen to it..

Stick around here too and you will get some more valuable advice too..

Its not as bad as you think on here, you will get a variety of opinions, some you like, some you don't . Those that you don't like... Read them a few times before deciding if they provide you with real help.

I know you are not an engine, but this may help!

Filter some of the advice you get here through your line of reasoning..

But make sure the filter is not faulty buddy!!

Once the sediment has gone, everything will seem clearer!

We always recommend professional help. It's really important. I am quite sure everyone on the palnet would benefit from help.

But, I only brought the other stuff because I have researched for a book about sexless marriages. Where the man refuses to have sex. The man usually turns out to be gay - nothing wrong with that.

Sex is pretty DAM important part of any healthy relationship. It will be a deal breaker in any relationship. This needs to be fixed.

I don't think professional help means there is anything bad/wrong with you necessarily (and in most cases)..

We could all do with some help from time to time and the experts can really offer you the best advice and guidance..

Nothing wrong with you buddy other than your need to accept that you need this help and guidance...

The road will be much less congested then, believe me!!

Hey soul, I have a question, have you had a previous sexual relationship with someone that you consider better than the girl your with now? If so perhaps your not happy with her compared to the level you had in the past.

Finally, some meaningful responses that I can start addressing to go forward...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allheart

Hi Soul and welcome.

Thanks...

Quote:

It must have been very difficult for you to reveal something so private.
I think the advice above, as far as seeking professional help with this situation is good advice.

Seeking professional help with this is nothing to be ashamed of, in fact, it would more than likely be the best thing for you in the long run.

Yes, I do realize this. In fact, my girlfriend and I had gone to a relationship counsellor for several sessions a little over half a year ago, but that came to an abrupt end when she finally revealed to me that several years ago she had slept with three other guys, during a time when we were "on a break", but still basically living together. For awhile, I couldn't stand looking at her, but it wasn't long before I realized I was able to forgive her for it, and would rather overlook what she did than break up with her for good. After that, we didn't get around to resuming the counselling.

Quote:

I have a feeling this has nothing to do with the fact that you are not attracted to your girlfriend, your difficulties could be, more with something inside of you, than just sheerly an attraction issue.

Sorry if that sounds like I am saying there is something wrong with you, that is not what I am saying, but just from reading your post, there does seem to be something that needs to be tended to on a more one -on-one basis.

What you're saying is perfectly fine, and you might be wrong, in that maybe there IS something wrong with me, but at least you're addressing it in a way that is helpful and considerate, unlike Wildcat21.

Anyway, yes, maybe I may have issues that are my own and not related to my girlfriend, and that's why I was wondering just yesterday, after our last argument (and the catalyst for me actually coming here for help) if I should go to a counsellor myself and see if the issues can be brought to light and resolved. I think I might just need to do that.

Quote:

The current situation is really not fair to either one of you, especially your girlfriend. Intimacy, not necessarily the sex part of it, but the passion and intimacy, is a precious part of a relationship. If your girlfriend senses that you are not attraced to her, you will have even greater troubles down the road.

Yes, I do agree it's not fair to either of us. The thing is, I believe intimacy and passion are two completely separate things. We have lots of intimacy... just no passion. We hold hands, hug, and snuggle all the time, and I enjoy doing that a lot with her. We are mentally very connected, and we share pretty much everything with each other, and are as comfortable as two people can be with one another. The only thing is, when it comes to actually having sex, that's the part I tend to balk on.

To me, I believe intimacy is a precious part of a relationship, but passion is just something that might initially bring two people together, but often fades away over time, and what determines whether the relationship will be successful or not in the longterm is the intimacy and commitment.

I do realize that this is my philosophy, and it seems that it differs from my girlfriend's philosophy, and that is where the problem lays.

We're not going to have greater troubles down the road... because we're already at that stage. My girlfriend knows I'm not physically attracted to her, and that's part of what has brought this situation to a head.

Quote:

It is good you came here to get a feel of your situation. It may not be what you expected to hear, but it is a first step and a very good one for you to at least recognize there is a problem.

You love this girl deeply, it is worth considering seeking some assistance as to the why? I fear that if you don't find out if this is actually a problem or to what extent, you could loose this girl that you love, find yourself in another relationship, with the same problem.

Well, the thing is, if we don't do anything about this, we probably won't break up, but we'll just both continue to be unhappy - her because I don't give her the attention that she wants, and me because I get forced into having sex unwillingly.

I guess by seeking help, we need to find out one of two things:
1.) Is there a way to resolve this situation of her wanting sex, but me not wanting sex and preferring to masturbate?
2.) If there is, then great... but if there isn't, then we have to make the hard decision of forcing ourselves to break up with one another.

Neither of us want to break up with one another, but if it gets to the point where we feel we have no choice, then maybe we'll just have to force ourselves to.

Quote:

I do wish you the best. Stick around the folks on here are awesome and truly do wish to help people.

Thanks...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildcat21

But, I only brought the other stuff because I have researched for a book about sexless marriages. Where the man refuses to have sex. The man usually turns out to be gay - nothing wrong with that.

Even IF that were to be true, I very strongly don't think I'm part of that "usually". If I'm gay, I'm not trying to hide it or be in denial of it. I'm telling you again straight up that there is simply no reason for you or myself to believe I have any homosexual tendencies. I have only ever liked females, and have only ever fantasized about females, and have only ever gotten off by thinking of females.

Quote:

Sex is pretty DAM important part of any healthy relationship. It will be a deal breaker in any relationship. This needs to be fixed.

This is an opinion, not a fact. I can guarantee there are many successful relationships and marriages that places sex low in the priority list.

I do have a question, if that is okay. What was the level of attraction to your girlfriend, prior to you finding out she was with other men during the "break" in your relationship?
Sorry to bring that up, I know it's not pleasant for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuff

Hey soul, I have a question, have you had a previous sexual relationship with someone that you consider better than the girl your with now? If so perhaps your not happy with her compared to the level you had in the past.

No, I have never had any other sexual relationships. She is my first and only girlfriend I've ever had. As I've mentioned before, however, there had been several girls I had lusted over and been infatuated with previous to getting together with her, but those never went anywhere.

I just don't find myself to be physically attracted to her. I don't know if it's just because I don't think she's as attractive as some of the other girls I see around, or if it's not related to that at all. I look at her more as my best friend and soulmate.

However, I do admit earlier on in our relationship, and even before we became a couple, I was more sexually charged with her, and I actually wanted to make out with her on several occasions.

I'm not sure what it was exactly that led me to want to make out with her at that time, whether it was just the newness of the whole experience, or just the thought of making out with someone... I don't know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allheart

I do have a question, if that is okay. What was the level of attraction to your girlfriend, prior to you finding out she was with other men during the "break" in your relationship?
Sorry to bring that up, I know it's not pleasant for you.

It was the same. It has been this way for a very long time. In fact, she says the reason she even slept with these other guys is because she was mad or frustrated with me because I don't give her enough.

Soul,

So you do see the danger in the lack of intamacy.

It sounds as though, outside of this issue, you do have a loving relationship. To me, there are all kinds of love.

And yes, going just yourself for the councilling, would probably be more beneficial. Believe me we all could use a visit to sit and have a chat with a professional who specializes in the fields we are in need of answers and insight.

Hang in there and just keep reassuring your girlfriend that you do lover her.

I truly hope you find the answers, you are off to a great start knowing there is an issue that seriously needs to be addressed. A lot of folks would not even get that far.

The sooner you look into this, the better for both of you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

Finally, some meaningful responses that I can start addressing to go forward...

Dude, the thought of being gay doesn't appeal to me either but Wildcat is an expert. He usually hits on the head. Maybe he wasn't right here but I can tell you from my own experience that he didn't mean any disrespect. Sometimes people come on this board and they are in denial about whatever there problems are and the only way to get to them is with a slap of reality to the face. On my very first post on this board WC was the first one to respond and I did not like what he wrote. I did not like it because it was true.

I'm not saying your gay but WC was just asking. He was trying to help and he has offered help to literally hundreds if not thousands of others here that is in may circumstances dead on. Okay your not gay but you are in denial, which I will try and help show you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

In fact, my girlfriend and I had gone to a relationship counsellor for several sessions a little over half a year ago, but that came to an abrupt end when she finally revealed to me that several years ago she had slept with three other guys, during a time when we were "on a break", but still basically living together.

Well this sounds like a major turning point in the relationship. First you don't trust her. You can say that you do but you don't. I can tell just by the way your wrote on a break in quotations. The counseling sessions should also probably have been extended when this revelation came out but instead they were ended.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

For awhile, I couldn't stand looking at her, but it wasn't long before I realized I was able to forgive her for it, and would rather overlook what she did than break up with her for good. After that, we didn't get around to resuming the counselling.

You've never forgiven her. To be honest, I wouldn't have either. I bet down in your sub conscious, or for that matter even in your conscious mind you think, why should I give you any love when you take it to three other guys. There's not trust. Truthfully I don't blame you. I wouldn't trust her. But don't deny it. Don't lie to yourself about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

What you're saying is perfectly fine, and you might be wrong, in that maybe there IS something wrong with me, but at least you're addressing it in a way that is helpful and considerate, unlike Wildcat21.

Okay, your not gay. Although you seem to be hung up on it for some reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

Anyways, yes, maybe I may have issues that are my own and not related to my girlfriend, and that's why I was wondering just yesterday, after our last argument (and the catalyst for me actually coming here for help) if I should go to a counsellor myself and see if the issues can be brought to light and resolved. I think I might just need to do that.

If you can afford it, I think you should.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

Yes, I do agree it's not fair to either of us. The thing is, I believe intimacy and passion are two completely separate things. We have lots of intimacy... just no passion. We hold hands, hug, and snuggle all the time, and I enjoy doing that a lot with her. We are mentally very connected, and we share pretty much everything with each other, and are as comfortable as two people can be with one another. The only thing is, when it comes to actually having sex, that's the part I tend to balk on.

Because she cheated on you. Three times. She broke that level of intimacy with three other guys. She broke that level of passion with three other guys. Don't make excuses for it. Don't deny it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

To me, I believe intimacy is a precious part of a relationship, but passion is just something that might initially bring two people together, but often fades away over time, and what determines whether the relationship will be successful or not in the longterm is the intimacy and commitment.

Yeah, it fades away when she doesn't share the same level of passion you do for the relationship or how you feel about the meaning of sex with one another.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

I do realize that this is my philosophy, and it seems that it differs from my girlfriend's philosophy, and that is where the problem lays.

Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

We're not going to have greater troubles down the road... because we're already at that stage. My girlfriend knows I'm not physically attracted to her, and that's part of what has brought this situation to a head.

Your in denial. If you don't give her sex she will, or already is going to get it somewhere else. Eventually she'll leave you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

Well, the thing is, if we don't do anything about this, we probably won't break up, but we'll just both continue to be unhappy - her because I don't give her the attention that she wants, and me because I get forced into having sex unwillingly.

Again, your in denial. You will break up. She will do the breaking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

I guess by seeking help, we need to find out one of two things:
1.) Is there a way to resolve this situation of her wanting sex, but me not wanting sex and preferring to masturbate?
2.) If there is, then great... but if there isn't, then we have to make the hard decision of forcing ourselves to break up with one another.

Neither of us want to break up with one another, but if it gets to the point where we feel we have no choice, then maybe we'll just have to force ourselves to.

I'm sorry to say it but I think you've already broke up with her. Not physically but emotionally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allheart

Soul,

So you do see the danger in the lack of intamacy.

Not to nit pick, but once again, it's the passion, not the intimacy... but yes, of course I do realize there's a problem in that she wants a lot of passion while I don't.

Quote:

It sounds as though, outside of this issue, you do have a loving relationship. To me, there are all kinds of love.

Yes, we do have a loving relationship... very much so.

As I described in my original post, I really like to go by Sternberg's theory, and there it lists the different types of love... and what I have for her is strictly companionate love, and I am perfectly happy with this, but she is not.

Quote:

And yes, going just yourself for the councilling, would probably be more beneficial. Believe me we all could use a visit to sit and have a chat with a professional who specializes in the fields we are in need of answers and insight.

Yeah, I guess I will be looking into booking a session soon.

Thanks for your insights.

Soul how old are you and how old is she?

How long have you being going out?

How long have you known each other?

Chuff, All really good points.

Soul, you are not nit picking, so please don't worry. Passion, intamacy, if absent, there is a danger. What happened during the "break" and your girlfriends explanation as to why
It happened just supports the reason for concern.

I hope you understand that I am not say your girlfriend would betray you again, but, and I know you do know this there is that danger.

You say you are okay without the passion/intamacy ( nit pick again :), but do you really know that, when in truth, this was really your first relationship. How do you know that one day, some years down the road, you will wake up and turn to her and tell her something is missing.

The good thing is you know there is some work to be done and advice to seek and glad you are planning on doing that as an individual and soon.

You have some great advice here already Soul and I don't have much more to add really. These people are a lot smarter at me when it comes to wording there great advice.

One thing though that stuck out at me was that you think you will never break up.. Big mistake. She will leave you mate and never look back.

You can have all the intimacy in the world but if she wants passion then she will go and get it.

I also don't think you have fully forgiven her and in turn fully trust her for the past. It seemed to shine out in the tone of that paragraph.

In fact I agree with most of what Chuff says above. I know you don't, maybe one day you will! I think to overcome this you will have to accept a lot of things you seem unwilling to at this point.

You are very quick to jump on any advice or opinion that doesn't meet you / Sternberg's theory.

Sadly for you the love of your life isn't as hung up on this theory as you are! Therein lies a big problem, and one you must confront. You are already making steps. I hope you reach the top and we hear a happy outcome.

I do hope you go and see someone and resolve this. Because it seems as though you are a intelligent person and have a lot to offer and no doubt love this girl.

Good luck!

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuff

Dude, the thought of being gay doesn't appeal to me either but Wildcat is an expert. He usually hits on the head. Maybe he wasn't right here but I can tell you from my own experience that he didn't mean any disrespect. Sometimes people come on this board and they are in denial about whatever there problems are and the only way to get to them is with a slap of reality to the face. On my very first post on this board WC was the first one to respond and I did not like what he wrote. I did not like it because it was true.

May I ask what his credentials are in being an expert? Even if he truly is an expert with a masters or doctorate in relationships, he definitely come off as sounding very professional, especially in his first reply.

Quote:

Well this sounds like a major turning point in the relationship. First you don’t trust her. You can say that you do but you don’t. I can tell just by the way your wrote on a break in quotations. The counseling sessions should also probably have been extended when this revelation came out but instead they were ended.

But this really wasn't a major turning point in the relationship. I trusted her fully before she revealed that to me, but afterwards, it took me a little time to forgive her, but I'm back at the point where I do trust her again. The counselling sessions were ended because I couldn't stand to face her for awhile (lasted only like a week), but of course our relationship needed a little time to mend even after I forgave her, but we weren't completely sure whether we were going to get together again, but we did... and because of that dragging on a little while, we never ended up continuing with the counselling sessions.

The thing is, everything would be hunky dory for long periods... weeks, and even months... but then her frustrations at some point escalates and she gets really mad and frustrated about this again. Yes, I know it's an ongoing problem that needs to be tended to, and just because it isn't constantly shown, it doesn't mean it doesn't always exist... but after we got back together that time, things "seemed" fine for a long time, so that's another reason that we ended up not immediately continuing the counselling.

Quote:

You’ve never forgiven her. To be honest, I wouldn’t have either. I bet down in your sub conscious, or for that matter even in your conscious mind you think, why should I give you any love when you take it to three other guys. There’s not trust. Truthfully I don’t blame you. I wouldn’t trust her. But don’t deny it. Don’t lie to yourself about it.

I can see why you might think this, but the thing is, our relationship has been like this a long time, and NOT only since she told me she slept with other guys.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

What you're saying is perfectly fine, and you might be wrong, in that maybe there IS something wrong with me, but at least you're addressing it in a way that is helpful and considerate, unlike Wildcat21.

Quote:

Okay, your not gay. Although you seem to be hung up on it for some reason.

Not sure how this relates to my quote, but... how am I hung up on it? Wildcat21 is insisting that I am gay, but I am sure I'm not, so I need to try and say something that might convince him, don't I? I hate these situations where you know for a fact what you're saying is true, but no matter what, people don't believe you and nothing you say will convince them otherwise.

Quote:

Because she cheated on you. Three times. She broke that level of intimacy with three other guys. She broke that level of passion with three other guys. Don’t make excuses for it. Don’t deny it.

She broke the trust with those three other guys, but not the intimacy and passion. Once again, I didn't want to have sex with her long before she ever told me about sleeping with those three guys, so how could it possibility be related to that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

Well, the thing is, if we don't do anything about this, we probably won't break up, but we'll just both continue to be unhappy - her because I don't give her the attention that she wants, and me because I get forced into having sex unwillingly.

Quote:

Again, your in denial. You will break up. She will do the breaking.

Believe me, I'm very much a realist. I'm not in denial. We've been together eight years, and I know how we both are. We have broken up and gotten back together probably a dozen times... sometimes the breaks are short, sometimes the breaks are longer... sometimes the reasons were small, sometimes the reasons were big... but each and every time, neither of us can stand staying apart from the other permanently.

We are very, VERY intimate with each other... by that, meaning we are the absolute best of friends and like soulmates, and while we don't compliment each other very well in the passion department, we really don't want to lose our friendship with one another, and that's what keeps bringing us back together time and time again.

It's not a brag or anything like that... but last night, after she got really mad at me again, she said she won't talk to me for awhile... but she's already calling and messaging me again.

Quote:

I’m sorry to say it but I think you’ve already broke up with her. Not physically but emotionally.

I would have to disagree... emotionally we're still very, very close, but physically - as in sex wise, we aren't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuff

Soul how old are you and how old is she?

How long have you being going out?

How long have you known each other?

I've already covered this, but I don't mind going over it again...

We're both 25 years old, with her being about two months older than me.

We have known each other for over ten years. Grade ten is when we became friends, and we quickly became best friends. We started getting a little physical a year later in grade eleven, even though she knew I was infatuated with her best friend at the time. Apparently my girlfriend did already like me then, but I have to admit I never had passion for her then either, but we were already being very cuddly, and several times it led to making out. We both should have stopped it, but neither of us could.

At the beginning of grade twelve, after the girl I was infatuated with started going out with one of my friends, I decided to give my girlfriend a chance... so we got together... and we've been together since then, except for some breaks.

Soul,

I can tell you are very upset about all of this which is understandable. The sooner you find the answers the happier you will be.

Please realize when folks ask questions, they are trying to help. Reading typed words is hard, so forgive me if I am wrong, but you get defensive very quickly and that is probably because all of this is so upsetting for you, which is very understandable.

I suppose it all boils down to whether you are being fair with her or not. Obviously she's more attracted to you in a sexual manner than you are to her. You've already admitted to masturbating to pictures of models you've gotten online. That's a very small step away from actually cheating with a live person, which I believe you're likely to do given the circumstances, despite your "companionate" love for her. Certainly it's possible to like someone as a companion without feeling sexually attracted to them. But, out of all fairness I'm not sure that it's a good thing to have a relationship with someone like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allheart

You say you are okay without the passion/intamacy ( go ahead and nit pick again :), but do you really know that, when in truth, this was really your first relationship. How do you know that one day, some years down the road, you will wake up and turn to her and tell her something is missing.

Well, in all honesty, I don't know that... but I don't think I would change my perspective on what I need to be happy with a relationship. On the other side though, I guess I can't expect her to change her desire to have passion to be happy with a relationship either, so this is what needs to be worked out.

Another related thing is, yes, I've never successfully courted anyone else before. The other girls that I liked before, I was always way too cautious and shy to go after them properly. Yes, I'm not very good with going after girls.

I'm not particularly good looking or anything, so there has only been one girl who has ever kind of "pursued" me, but I had no interest in her whatsoever, so that never went anywhere either.

With my girlfriend, it was different... there was no real pursuit or courtship... we just kind of went from being best friends to being a couple.

But... what if someone I find really attractive does come after me? I doubt that would ever happen, but if it does, I honestly don't know how I would handle that. In my mind, I would love to say I would never sleep with someone else, but being a realist, I can't say for certain I could resist.

That's not REALLY part of the issue though, but just something I have thought about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allheart

Soul,

I can tell you are very upset about all of this which is understandable. The sooner you find the answers the happier you will be.

Please realize when folks ask questions, they are trying to help. Reading typed words is hard, so forgive me if I am wrong, but you get defensive very quickly and that is probably because all of this is so upsetting for you, which is very understandable.

Sorry if my words are coming out as being exasperated or mad. Asides from my original couple replies to Wildcat21, I have been trying to reply with a very good attitude.

I appreciate the help that I am being provided with, some more so than others. It shouldn't be much of a surprise for me to say that you have probably been the most helpful and understanding thus far.

Soul,

You do have a great deal of issues to work through and you are very wise to do that now.
Soul, what you don't realize is that you not being sure that you could resist someone if you were attracted to them and they to you... IS most definitely an issue and one that is very concerning. I am also concerned with your self-confidence as well, "I'm not good with the girls and I am not particulary good looking". Need to work on that Soul, about how you view yourself.

Bottom line... You are doing the right think in seeking some serious soul searching and professional guidance. Not only for you but your girlfriend, who you say is your soulmate.
Soul, if you love her the way you say you do, there is no way, ever, you would even have a doubt that you could resist someone else.

I just point some of things out to hammer home to you that it is time to work on these issues with someone who specializes in this field.

I do wish you the very best. It is important that you follow through with your decision to seek professional help.

Please keep coming back and let us know how you are doing.

Being understanding isn't what you are after. Help is what you are after.

You have answers to everyone's suggestions and advice. If it is all so great and everything is working as you say then why isn't it in actual fact.

Why aren't either of you happy.

You can go on with all your theories o intimacy, passion etc but the bottom line is you aren't happy and nor is she.

Doesn't sound like it is going very far to me. You would have to admit that two parties in a relationship that aren't happy isn't exactly the formula for a long and loving life together?

If you have all the answers and have tried all options then perhaps your next step is consider the fact that the two of you may just not work in a relationship and ending it and moving on!

I hope it doesn't come to this but unless something is done about by you, and by you in a hurry you won't be the one doing the ending.

Quote:

Originally Posted by s_cianci

I suppose it all boils down to whether you are being fair with her or not. Obviously she's more attracted to you in a sexual manner than you are to her. You've already admitted to masturbating to pictures of models you've gotten online. That's a very small step away from actually cheating with a live person, which I believe you're likely to do given the circumstances, despite your "companionate" love for her. Certainly it's possible to like someone as a companion without feeling sexually attracted to them. But, out of all fairness I'm not sure that it's a good thing to have a relationship with someone like that.

What you say is definitely reasonable.

As for being fair or not... I think it's probably a two way street, and as has been mentioned previously, the situation itself is not very fair for either of us.

Yes, when there is a difference in sexual desire between the two people, it is a problem... but which side is the one at fault? The one desiring it too much or the one not desiring it enough?

We probably have sex about twice a week... and if I recall correctly, that's about average for people in general, isn't it? So am I being unfair to not give her more than average, or is she being unfair to demand more than average? Both?

Yes, I do masturbate to pictures of models and stuff... but there's nothing wrong with this, is there? Don't many people fantasize about others while having sex? The counsellor that we went to seemed to indicate masturbating to others is perfectly normal, and is more so just masturbating to the image of them, not the person itself... so it isn't the same as actually sleeping with someone.

As I said earlier, no... I honestly can't guarantee I wouldn't sleep with someone else if the chance came up, BUT... I don't think that situation will ever arise, and I will certainly not proactively go after anyone to have this happen, so this could possibly just be a moot point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allheart

Soul, what you don't realize is that you not being sure that you could resist someone if you were attracted to them and they to you... IS most definitely an issue and one that is very concerning.

I agree it's not a good thing, but it isn't anything too out of the ordinary, is it? I'm sure there are a lot of people that are the same - which is why so many people have affairs. I'm not trying to rationalize or justify it to be okay just because others do it. I just say I'm unsure because I'm trying to be as honest as possible and because it has never happened to me, and possibly never will, I don't know how I would react. Hey, maybe I would actually be able to resist when the moment comes... I just don't know.

Quote:

I am also concerned with your self-confidence as well, "I'm not good with the girls and I am not particulary good looking". Need to work on that Soul, about how you view yourself.

Again, trying to be as honest as possible, I am not a very good people person. I have trouble communicating with anyone that I'm not very close to, and especially girls that I like. Realistically, I'm not particularly good looking. I'm not ugly or anything, just not anyone that would stand out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skell

Being understanding isn't what you are after. Help is what you are after.

I know. I did tell Allheart he was being both understanding AND helpful.

Quote:

You have answers to everyone's suggestions and advice. If it is all so great and everything is working as you say then why isn't it in actual fact.

Why aren't either of you happy.

You can go on with all your theories o intimacy, passion etc but the bottom line is you aren't happy and nor is she.

Doesn't sound like it is going very far to me. You would have to admit that two parties in a relationship that aren't happy isn't exactly the formula for a long and loving life together?

I never said all is great, and I know we're both not happy. That is why I'm here.

We aren't happy because we have a difference in sexual desire.

I'm happy with how things are, but she isn't. She wants more sex.

What makes me unhappy is that she wants more sex, and gets upset at me for not giving it to her.

This is really the only problem we have in our relationship. She says if I can give her enough sex to satisfy her, then she wouldn't mind me masturbating.

But the thing is, I'm not masturbating INSTEAD of having sex with her. Even if I don't masturbate, I still don't feel like having sex.

Everything else in the relationship is very, very good... it is just this issue of sex that is a problem.

Quote:

If you have all the answers and have tried all options then perhaps your next step is consider the fact that the two of you may just not work in a relationship and ending it and moving on!

I hope it doesn't come to this but unless something is done about by you, and by you in a hurry you won't be the one doing the ending.

Well, that's what I need to speak to a counsellor for... to determine whether anything can be done to resolve the sexual libido difference. If the answer is no, then maybe we will have force ourselves to end the relationship.

Soul - I think I understand your thinking on intimacy v. passion after reading through this thread. Please correct me if I am wrong too - I have nothing to offer here but insight and it won't be worth much if it isn't accurate. I've seen a lot of relationships in my time, mostly through having friends. You two remind me of some who just recently broke up after ten years - he cheated. Not saying you're going to, okay?

What I predominantly see here, granted it's a limited view, is you two both settled for "second choice" back there. Some tiny fear said you might not get anyone so you settled for close but no cigar. And it was close too, which made it that much easier to settle for. She settled for someone who doesn't share her attraction, doesn't look at her and melt and so she's exempted herself from that whole mmmmmmmm I want you thing! You settled for a really eclipsed sex life that you've almost turned into something as meaningful as wolfing a fast meal since you committed to what is essentially your best friend who doesn't understand the need for solo sex very well. Its pretty subtle and you both probably hide it well from each other but I believe its mutual. For now. The problem is it doesn't stay that way over time. The odds are that one of you will, at some point, meet "first choice" however and find that experience so compelling that all bets are off then. If any of this fits...

I would prefer to see you both get more honest with each other and do what is best before that happens. I tried, desperately even, to get my friends to do just that. They are not people who were accustomed to telling rock bottom truths much and when I would reframe some of their bs, they would laugh but it went no further. And sadly he met someone. And it blew up in everyone's face. Sad.

That you are open to some counseling is why I am making the effort here to post. That shows promise. I can only tell you from my experience that I not only married my best friend but he is the hottest man I know. So we have our own little love triangle going -- friends, lovers and spouses LOL and on any given day, two out of the three may not be pumping on all cylinders but to miss out on what glorious love making is when its both your friend and lover is to miss the point completely in my view of it. You two deserve full throttle happiness and it would be a shame to see you continue sacrificing umm how did that quote go... "Sometimes the good is the worst enemy of the best?"

Just some thoughts to do with what you will... I hope they are helpful. And if not well at least they were free. LOL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

May I ask what his credentials are in being an expert? Even if he truly is an expert with a masters or doctorate in relationships, he definitely come off as sounding very professional, especially in his first reply.

You know I don't have the slightest clue what his educational credentials are.

Here's what I do know newbie. If you want to get advice from some prof. that provides you with theories that don't translate to real life as it appears you do then go to school. If you want a man who has struggled to learn the differences between the sexes and in relationships and apply them to real life, and publishing a book on it then Wildcat is that man.

Here's what I also know newbie. I know I've gone back and read Wildcat's advice in many different situations regarding many different people and thought about how they've applied to my situations in the past and realized how many mistakes I've made and I've learned from them.

Here's what I also know newbie. I personally came to this website after getting jerked around by woman for a couple of months, and in reality for most of my adult life by many other women and instead of giving me a bunch of sugar coated answers like I got from my friends Wildcat told me the truth. He told me what my problem was and then told me how to change it. WC also got me to realize that women think so much different then men, and how to read there signals.

Here's what I also know newbie. Wildcat has taken time out of his life to educate, motivate, help, and counsel many people sometimes individually through personal interaction beyond this website.

Here's what I also know newbie. Most of the people who come to this website live in a fantasy land. They watch television and movies for there whole life and apply what they've seen there to real life and wonder how come it doesn't work.

I, along with those that are successful on this website came here an open mind. I didn't just show up here thinking everyone here was out to get me or show up with an attitude that if I don't like there answer I'm going to dismiss it because it doesn't fit the definition I want to hear. If you want changes in your life sometimes you have to accept that the way your doing things isn't working. You have to admit your wrong and be open to change. You have to start to get honest with yourself and drop the attitude and realize that others are willing to help you out if you give them the chance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

But this really wasn't a major turning point in the relationship. I trusted her fully before she revealed that to me, but afterwards, it took me a little time to forgive her, but I'm back at the point where I do trust her again. The counselling sessions were ended because I couldn't stand to face her for awhile (lasted only like a week),

My God your in denial. I don't care if you've never had a great sex life, you don't trust this woman. I don't blame you. You shouldn't. This jumped right out of your last post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

but of course our relationship needed a little time to mend even after I forgave her, but we weren't completely sure whether we were going to get together again, but we did... and because of that dragging on a little while, we never ended up continuing with the counselling sessions.

Relationships are not like wounds on your skin. Some things never heal. Cheating is one of those things. Cheating three times is even worse. Truth is she's probably cheated more but you will deny that. If this woman wants sex every day and you don't give it to her then she will find it somewhere.

You guys need the counseling, but I think you should get some by yourself without her. I think you might hold back from saying everything with her there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

I can see why you might think this, but the thing is, our relationship has been like this a long time, and NOT only since she told me she slept with other guys.

Was it always like this? I mean were the first two years good then the sex slowed down or was it just always like this? This is a serious question so don't go off about it but were you ever molested?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

Not sure how this relates to my quote, but... how am I hung up on it? Wildcat21 is insisting that I am gay, but I am sure I'm not, so I need to try and say something that might convince him, don't I?

This relates to your quote because you keep bringing it up. He asked if you were gay and all you had to do was say no. You got extremely defensive in your response. Then you brought it back up again when it wasn't even a topic anymore.

WC was asking, not insisting. If you say your not gay your not gay. All were asking is that you answer the questions we provide so we can help you out. You have an attitude over this whole thing that sort of baffles me to be honest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

I hate these situations where you know for a fact what you're saying is true, but no matter what, people don't believe you and nothing you say will convince them otherwise.

I really didn't get that impression at all. Would you agree that we've got to ask you some questions to help you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

She broke the trust with those three other guys, but not the intimacy and passion. Once again, I didn't want to have sex with her long before she ever told me about sleeping with those three guys, so how could it possibility be related to that?

Trust is part of intimacy and passion. She broke it. Maybe your sex life wasn't great before but this sealed its fate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

Believe me, I'm very much a realist. I'm not in denial.

You are soul. Your in a sexual relationship in which you want no sex. I'm sorry but that's denial.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

We've been together eight years, and I know how we both are.

Well here's what I know. I know she's not happy. I know that she covets sex from you and when she doesn't get it she finds it somewhere else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

We have broken up and gotten back together probably a dozen times... sometimes the breaks are short, sometimes the breaks are longer... sometimes the reasons were small, sometimes the reasons were big... but each and everytime, neither of us can stand staying apart from the other permanently.

Because you're the safety net. When the breaks happen she sees other people and when it doesn't work out with them she comes back to you because you'll at least be there. It stops her from feeling the emotional withdrawal of the other losses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

We are very, VERY intimate with each other... by that, meaning we are the absolute best of friends and like soulmates, and while we don't compliment each other very well in the passion department, we really don't want to lose our friendship with one another, and that's what keeps bringing us back together time and time again.

You said it. Your friends. That is what she sees you as. But you also give her attention so she has a reason to keep coming back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

It's not a brag or anything like that... but last night, after she got really mad at me again, she said she won't talk to me for awhile... but she's already calling and messaging me again.

I would have to disagree... emotionally we're still very, very close, but physically - as in sex wise, we aren't.

What I met by physically was as in physically in person. Not physically in sex.

I think you're her safety net. You have your breaks she comes back when she needs the attention or the other guys don't work out.

That being said, let me ask you why do you want this relationship? Are you more afraid of being alone so you settle for having someone, even if it's not at the level you want?

Seriously - have you had your testosterone levels checked? I know guys with low levels don't want sex.

This is going gto be a deal breaker in any relationship.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

Again, trying to be as honest as possible, I am not a very good people person. I have trouble communicating with anyone that I'm not very close to, and especially girls that I like.

Dude, I'm not going to B.S. you. I've noticed. Your defensive and angery at some of us for trying to help you out.

That being said, you recognize this is a negative trait you have. You can fix it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

Realistically, I'm not particularly good looking. I'm not ugly or anything, just not anyone that would stand out.

First women go for guys with confidence and personality over looks. Howard Stern doesn't have women show up to his studio willing to undress because he's a great looking guy.

You come off as angry, short, and defensive in these posts so I imagine that is evident in your life as well. That is what is going to turn off a woman. Not your looks.

Soul, You come off as very intelligent, but you have no empathy. You must feel what another is going through and be willing to give of yourself to do what it takes to make them happy. No clinical definition will take the place of feeling what your partner is about. You have explained and analyzed everything that is written, but the meaning of those words seem to be lost. To write off her feelings, wants, and needs, in such a cold manner and not take them to heart is disrespectful in a committed, healthy relationship. You have a lot of growing to do so get out of the books and talk to your female about your FEELINGS and HERS. And pay attention, the solution to your problems is right in front of you, work together to be healthy and happy. You have to give of yourself, and if whacking off means she can't get her 20 minutes then stop it. If a counsellor helps you see how selfish you are then get one, now and take her too. It takes a lot of work to make a relationship work, so get busy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by valinors_sorrow

What I predominantly see here, granted its a limited view, is you two both settled for "second choice" back there. Some tiny fear said you might not get anyone so you settled for close but no cigar. And it was close too, which made it that much easier to settle for. She settled for someone who doesn't share her attraction, doesn't look at her and melt and so she's exempted herself from that whole mmmmmmmm I want you thing! You settled for a really eclipsed sex life that you've almost turned into something as meaningful as wolfing a fast meal since you committed to what is essentially your best friend who doesn't understand the need for solo sex very well. Its pretty subtle and you both probably hide it well from each other but I believe its mutual. For now. The problem is it doesn't stay that way over time. The odds are that one of you will, at some point, meet "first choice" however and find that experience so compelling that all bets are off then. If any of this fits....

Hmm, that is some good insight worth contemplating. Thanks for the taking the time to write the reply. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuff

You know I don't have the slightest clue what his educational credentials are.

You didn't comprehend what I wrote correctly. I wasn't suggesting that he is an expert or not based solely on educational credentials... although most established professionals probably would have a masters or doctorate in the field.

What I was rather trying to ask is, exactly what makes him an "expert"? Is he considered an "expert" in relationships in general, or just on this forum?

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuff

Here's what I do know newbie.
Here's what I also know newbie.
Here's what I also know newbie.
Here's what I also know newbie.
Here's what I also know newbie.

Gee, you sure think highly of him. You're getting pretty defensive and antagonistic towards me not placing a high value on his opinions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuff

Wildcat has taken time out of his life to educate, motivate, help, and counsel many people sometimes individually through personal interaction beyond this website.

Hey, maybe he has done that, and maybe he really isn't a bad guy... but all I know his for ME, I don't believe he was very helpful, and I didn't particularly like his attitude.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuff

I, along with those that are successful on this website came here an open mind. I didn't just show up here thinking everyone here was out to get me or show up with an attitude that if I don't like there answer I'm going to dismiss it because it doesn't fit the definition I want to hear.

I didn't come here with a closed mind either. I don't think everyone here is out to get me either. The only person I've been negative towards is Wildchild21, because I believe he is way out in left field. And it is not because he's the only one saying things that I might not want to hear. It's because I truly believe he isn't right about my particular situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuff

If you want changes in your life sometimes you have to accept that the way your doing things isn’t working. You have to admit your wrong and be open to change. You have to start to get honest with yourself and drop the attitude and realize that others are willing to help you out if you give them the chance.

I never said I don't share any of the cause of the problem here. Once again, I have only given any attitude towards Wildchild21. I have been very courteous and professional with everyone else here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul

I can see why you might think this, but the thing is, our relationship has been like this a long time, and NOT only since she told me she slept with other guys.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuff

Was it always like this? I mean were the first two years good then the sex slowed down or was it just always like this? This is a serious question so don’t go off about it but were you ever molested?

I can't recall perfectly well, but I would probably have to guess that it was somewhat better initially, as in she didn't always have to initiate things, and that sometimes I may have been the aggressor. Perhaps that may have lasted a year or two? I honestly can't remember that well however.

No, I was never molested.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuff

This relates to your quote because you keep bringing it up. He asked if you were gay and all you had to do was say no. You got extremely defensive in your response. Then you brought it back up again when it wasn’t even a topic anymore.

WC was asking, not insisting. If you say your not gay your not gay. All were asking is that you answer the questions we provide so we can help you out. You have an attitude over this whole thing that sort of baffles me to be honest.

When did I bring it up when it wasn't the topic anymore?

I thought it would be helpful to explain why I am sure I'm not gay, instead of just saying "No". Otherwise there would be no basis on whether to think I'm in denial or not. But if you seem to think that a simple "No" is better, then fine.

No, I'm not gay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuff

I really didn’t get that impression at all. Would you agree that we've got to ask you some questions to help you?

Sure, that's not a problem. I don't even have a problem of being asked if I'm gay or not. It was the WAY that Wildchild21 asked that I had an issue with. He wasn't just simply asking it. It was more so implying or even suggesting that I am.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuff

Trust is part of intimacy and passion. She broke it. Maybe your sex life wasn’t great before but this sealed its fate.

Well, I believe trust is mostly a part of intimacy. You can definitely have passion without trust.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuff

You are soul. Your in a sexual relationship in which you want no sex. I’m sorry but that’s denial.

Maybe the problem is I want to be in a non-sexual relationship then. Do all longterm relationships and/or marriages have to be sexual?

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuff

Well here’s what I know. I know she’s not happy. I know that she covets sex from you and when she doesn’t get it she finds it somewhere else.

I agree that she's not happy. Well, she has promised me she won't deceive me anymore, and right now, I'm going to trust her more so out of our friendship. This is probably why she is as upset as she is, because she isn't straying to get the sex she wants.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuff

Because you’re the safety net. When the breaks happen she sees other people and when it doesn’t work out with them she comes back to you because you’ll at least be there. It stops her from feeling the emotional withdrawal of the other losses.

Well, it's not like she is always going out with other guys whenever we go on breaks. Yes, she did sleep with three other guys, but she never took them or others on as boyfriends.

Quote:

That being said, let me ask you why do you want this relationship? Are you more afraid of being alone so you settle for having someone, even if it’s not at the level you want?

I want this relationship because I like the intimacy with her, because we have been best friends for ten years, and I don't want to lose that. I also value being able to be as comfortable as I am with her, which is something I don't have with others. As I said before, I'm not much of a people person, and I have problems socializing and feel awkward just conversing with people a lot of the time. Yes, this is another completely separate problem, but I'm just explaining why I value having that level of intimacy and comfort with my girlfriend.

I just know I would much rather be with her than not.

Sure, the ideal relationship would be to find someone that I could be just as intimate with, plus the passion... but I don't think I would be able to find someone like that. It's possible I could find someone that I am more attracted to, but I doubt I would ever have the same level of intimacy.

So basically, I would rather have the extremely high level of intimacy and low level of attraction, than a moderate level of intimacy and a high level of attraction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildcat21

Seriously - have you had your testosterone levels checked? I know guys with low levels don't want sex.

This is goin gto be a deal breaker in any relationship.

Well, we originally thought maybe my testosterone levels were low and I had low sexual drive... but in our initial counselling sessions, our counsellor didn't believe that is the case, since I do masturbate.

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