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So I think from my (admittedly somewhat limited) dating experience, I've come to the following conclusion:
If there is such a thing as an all-around "nice guy" he's rare.
What's a lot more common are guys who are pretty obviously jerks, or else guys who most people /think/ are nice because they're nice to their female friends and maybe their girlfriends, but they still manage to screw over other women in ways that no one besides those women are really aware of.
Thoughts?
My thoughts the nice guy is dying (keep in mind I am a guy) I think its because so many women just take the jerk and refuse to leave. I have a friend who is cheating on her boyfriend right now and she won't leave him. The sad thing I went through the same thing with this girl and she didn't leave him. In my mind this is part of the reason for it. I have stopped a lot of bad habits to be with a girl only to lose to some punk that cheats on her. This could also be a reason for it.
Yea, sometimes I think that all the nice guys are already snagged up and married now by my age 23.. sucks, but I'm trust God that I will find the right guy if it isn't my ex
I read a nice article today about the "nice guy" It said that girls want value. Jerks value themselves (why they are jerks) Gentlemen value themselves + the lady. "Nice guys" don't value much/putt he women on a pedistle.
If the nice guy is rare it's only a reflection of women...
Women raise them that way and/or they date women who allow/settle for "bad" behavior.
I hear and know of women who reinforce this behavior all of the time (by settling for not so great guys and their BS) so it isn't surprising that when we women accept this behavior it creates a vicious cycle...
Yea I know from experience and experience is making me wonder why I bother trying to be the nice guy
I have to agree!! I was a nice guy... but I think from all BS women put me through, I killed the nice guys and became a total me first... however, I evaluate peeps and with time I let them get a little bit of niceness... well big big mistake... I guess... be nice is not bad.. but putting the girl up as if she is a goddess, that bad... I m pretty confident, and don't really have problem getting girls, but I once I fall too deep... I lose myself... so I have learned to be nice and yet put myself first... just so that the girl doesn't think that she my all in all... KAPIGE?? there are nice guys out there... but they just got really clever because they got screwed over and over... hahaha
"Women raise them that way and/or they date women who allow/settle for "bad" behavior."
Umm... men raise boys too, you know. You can't blame women for everything (well, you can try, I s'pose, god knows a lot of guys do)
gg23: Being nice isn't putting a woman on a pedastal. And it isn't putting yourself first. It includes being honest, straightforward, thinking and caring about how your actions might affect others' feelings.
Toluca... trust me I take it you speaking from a women's perpective? huh?. well let me tell that being honest, straighforward, thinking and carting how my actions might affect other's feelings... I have done all that... and you know where that took me?? well being heart broken over and over... don't get me wrong... or maybe I'm just dating the wrong one?? I don't think so... I think young immature women like the popular say.. that I like the bad boys etc... thats when they are still young and blooming... while us men get to pay for those BS... then with age, has men continue to look better with age, which is not the case for women, after they sick of being treated like... and ready to settle, then the go shopping with nice guy or good man... because they are going to have their back... I think women get in and out of relationships for selfish reasons... and they turn so cold blooded that you wonder if it's was the same person you just spent years with... so I know what I'm talking about from experience...
In short, many men out there get so sick and tired of all the BS women put us through that we just grow desensitize... and don't like to put up with BS... and nowadays why do you think that men are staying away from marriage these days huh?? because they don't want to end up with someone who turns out to be a Pshysco later on...
"toluca...trust me i take it you speaking from a women's perpective??huh??...well let me tell that being honest, straighforward, thinking and carting how my actions might affect other's feelings...i have done all that...and you know where that took me ???well being heart broken over and over"
This is /the vast majority of women's/ experience with dating, yet most women (at least all women I know) continue to try and embody these traits anyway. Maybe that's part of the problem. Guys think it's unfair if they ever have to suffer any pain, whereas women just expect that they'll have to suffer at least some pain, and a lot of the time will even blame themselves for it.
No I am not saying that guys don't expect to suffer any pain... love and pain when it comes to relationship are like two side of a coin... pain is inevitable when there is love... I tried despite all the heart breaks... I honestly think though that some of the reasons I have given or some of my guys friends have been told by their girls are really just plain RIDICULOUS... but don't worry even guys do expect that... I guess we just deal with it in a different way... I mean there are some really seflish reasons... and women once they are interested in someone else, they drop you cold turkey... thats just wrong...
NO ONE IS PERFECT! The sooner you realize that the better off you are. Even Prince Charming farts... lol You just have to figure out what you are willing to tolerate in man and find the closest match. Everyone has good days and bad, peaks and valleys...
I think women accept this no nice guy attitude because they are afraid to approach a guy and therefore they do not see any nice guys because a true nice guy does not approach a woman unless he knows her or sees a real interest that she may have in him but in reality the nice guy is afraid of coming off as a jerk because so many men portray themselves that way by hitting on every woman they see
"i think women accept this no nice guy attitude because they are afraid to approach a guy and therefore they do not see any nice guys because a true nice guy does not approach a woman unless he knows her or sees a real interest that she may have in him but in reality the nice guy is afraid of coming off as a jerk because so many men portray themselves that way by hitting on every woman they see"
I'm not talking about before you're getting to know someone, as you seem to be. I'm talking in terms of how a guy treats all the women he actually knows.
And dmaildocs: I'm not looking for Prince Charming. In fact, I think I have a pretty high tolerance for human imperfection. I just happen to think there's a big difference between being imperfect and being totally inconsiderate of certain peoples' feelings (lying for selfish reasons, etc.). And I guess when I was talking in my OP about guys who "most people /think/ are nice" but who screw over certain women that's what I was referring to.
Toluca_86, I am a woman myself and my words were "Women raise them that way and/or they date women who allow/settle for "bad" behavior"
I understand that there are single dads out there and women who raise there sons to be "nice guys" that's why the or is in that quote... because if this beahvior isn't learned from home it is learned in relationships (with women) where men are allowed to be "bad" because their woman is afraid to leave or stays because of low self esteem etc. (I've seen and heard it all, there's always an excuse)
I happen to believe that people learn how to treat you (when you set the standard for what you will and will not accept), so if a woman is constantly dating bad guys she should evaluate herself first. SHE has a choice in those relationships too and SHE should not stick around for undesirable behavior!
I think this philosophy works both ways though but I think women settle for the "wrong guys" more often which only reinforces this bad behavior.
If a guy knows he can "misbehave" in a relationship and his girlfriend will cry, argue and make him miserable for a day or two only to remain in the relationship because she LoveS him and can't move on to a better man... why would he change his behavior? There is no real consequence there... That's where women contribute to this Bad Guy Problem, not all but some women.
It is the attitude, promoted by feminism, that men are no longer needed by women that has contributed to the loss of the nice guy.
It has also contributed to the unhappiness of women in general.
It has taken away from women, ALL of the things that for generations, were the things that made them feel worthwhile, and overall, happy.
It has demonized the act of raising children, taking care of a home, and a husband, and turned that into the actions that will keep a women from ever being happy or feeling fulfilled in life.
A guy can only run into so many of these liberated women, before the nice guy starts building walls to prevent the pain associated with trying to please these bitter women.
Just my thoughts, excuse me while I button up my suit of armor, and prepare for the attacks to follow my post.
The following are not my words. But this is someone who USED to be a nice guy and the reason why he isn't anymore. Again these are not my words!! But I do agree with these words.
What happened to all the nice guys?
The answer is simple: you did.
See, if you think back, really hard, you might vaguely remember a Platonic guy pal who always seemed to want to spend time with you. He'd tag along with you when you went shopping, stop by your place for a movie when you were lonely but didn't feel like going out, or even sit there and hold you while you sobbed and told him about how horribly the (other) guy that you were ing treated you.
At the time, you probably joked with your girlfriends about how he was a little puppy dog, always following you around, trying to do things to get you to pay attention to him. They probably teased you because they thought he had a crush on you. Given that his behavior was, admittedly, a little pathetic, you vehemently denied having any romantic feelings for him, and buttressed your position by claiming that you were "just friends." Besides, he totally wasn't your type. I mean, he was a little too short, or too bald, or too fat, or too poor, or didn't know how to dress himself, or basically be or do any of the things that your tall, good-looking, fit, rich, stylish boyfriend at the time pulled off with such ease.
Eventually, your Platonic buddy drifted away, as your relationship with the boyfriend got more serious and spending time with this other guy was, admittedly, a little weird, if you weren't dating him. More time passed, and the boyfriend eventually cheated on you, or became boring, or you realized that the things that attracted you to him weren't the kinds of things that make for a good, long-term relationship. So, now, you're single again, and after having tried the bar scene for several months having only encountered players and douche bags, you wonder, "What happened to all the nice guys?"
Well, once again, you did.
You ignored the nice guy. You used him for emotional intimacy without reciprocating, in kind, with physical intimacy. You laughed at his consideration and resented his devotion. You valued the aloof boyfriend more than the attentive "just-a-" friend. Eventually, he took the hint and moved on with his life. He probably came to realize, one day, that women aren't really attracted to guys who hold doors open; or make dinners just because; or buy you a Christmas gift that you mentioned, in passing, that you really wanted five months ago; or listen when you're upset; or hold you when you cry. He came to realize that, if he wanted a woman like you, he'd have to act more like the boyfriend that you had. He probably cleaned up his look, started making some money, and generally acted like more of an @$$hole than he ever wanted to be.
Fact is, now, he's probably getting laid, and in a way, your ultimate rejection of him is to thank for that. And I'm sorry that it took the complete absence of "nice guys" in your life for you to realize that you missed them and wanted them. Most women will only have a handful of nice guys stumble into their lives, if that.
So, if you're looking for a nice guy, here's what you do:
1.) Build a time machine.
2.) Go back a few years and pull your head out of your @$$.
3.) Take a look at what's right in front of you and grab ahold of it.
I suppose the other possibility is that you STILL don't really want a nice guy, but you feel the social pressure to at least appear to have matured beyond your infantile taste in men. In which case, you might be in luck, because the nice guy you claim to want has, in reality, shed his nice guy mantle and is out there looking to unleash his cynicism and resentment onto someone just like you.
If you were five years younger.
So, please: either stop misrepresenting what you want, or own up to the fact that you've ed yourself over. You're getting older, after all. It's time to excise the bullsh*t and deal with reality. You didn't want a nice guy then, and he certainly doesn't ing want you, now.
Sincerely,
A Recovering Nice Guy
Spitvenom,
Your post is very accurate.. It's hurtful and brutal but true..
Let me give you all some insight on the woman's side to this...
I have been in the situation where a "nice guy" friend of mine was there for me when I was sad when I was dating a "bad guy" that was good looking and all.. the nice guy was my shoulder to cry on, he talked to me and made me feel better, and honestly, I just didn't see him "that" way.. He was clingy and too emotional and honestly not my type looks wise.. sooo eventually I got over the "bad" guy and stopped being friends with the "nice" guy because his feelings for me starting to become evident, and I didn't want to hurt him anymore..
My point is, yes, nice guys are there and most girls use them, BUT, us women are intitled to be with someone that we are physically attracted to or are compatible with.. and if that "nice guy" doesn't do it for us, we aren't going to go for it.. it's the truth, sorry.. us women never ASKED for you to be our door step, we don't intentionally want to step all over you, you men make those choices yourself! You don't have to stick around.. us women have other friends that can console us..
So "nice men" can still be nice, but can have their boundries too.. and then they won't be put in that "friend" "needy-emotional" category that us woman subconsciously put them in.. If a "nice guy" is confident and is strong, and doesn't let women cross the line, then I would be so much more inclined to date them, even if I wasn't quite attracted to them physically.. does that makes sense? Because I for sure am done dating the gorgeous guys that have lots of problems and issues.
"Your post is very accurate.. It's hurtful and brutal but true.."
Hahahahahahahaha.
"You used him for emotional intimacy without reciprocating, in kind, with physical intimacy. You laughed at his consideration and resented his devotion. You valued the aloof boyfriend more than the attentive "just-a-" friend. Eventually, he took the hint and moved on with his life. He probably came to realize, one day, that women aren't really attracted to guys who hold doors open; or make dinners just because; or buy you a Christmas gift that you mentioned, in passing, that you really wanted five months ago; or listen when you're upset; or hold you when you cry. "
Nice guys aren't guys who think they're owed sex for having to listen to your problems, or being a friend, or whatever. Please see the definition of nice I posted above, if you want to know how /I'm/ defining a nice guy. I'm attracted to people who I /think are nice/ according to my definition, and then I get rid of them when they turn out to not be so nice. So basically, your theory is pretty bogus as it relates to me.
"If you were five years younger."
If I were 5 years younger I'd be illegal. Again, nice try. You can't blame all your problems on women, and you can't blame women for why you're an a-hole. I think in general I try to be nice to everyone, and I /still/ don't blame all my problems or my failings on men.
For toluca_86.
Aren't you late for your N.O.W. meeting?
I'm not a member of N.O.W. But if you meant that as an insult, it didn't really come across as one. (Feministing on the other hand, I do like a lot).
I'm just speakin' the truth though bro'... legal history as it is on the books and everything -sorry if you can't handle that.
If you could point out the "legal history" in any of your posts, I believe I can handle it.
Just the fact that you totally dismiss how feminism "may" have changed the role of woman in the home, and that the effects that has on society in general have been harmful, not only to women, but to men and children as well, then you are not living in reality at all.
It is however, no surprise to me, given your young age, that the feminism has been very effective in shaping your thoughts and beliefs, so when it comes right down to it, your replies only prove my point.
Thank you.
Where did you get this idea from?Quote:
Originally Posted by Toluca_86
"If you could point out the "legal history" in any of your posts, I believe I can handle it."
Like I mentioned the fact that prior to the 1970s, it was legal for a husband to rape his wife. And you can go back and read court cases where judges dismissed cases for that reason.
Feminism did a lot for women's rights in the work place and political sphere and also for their rights to not be abused physically or sexually (again, talking mainly legally here), but that doesn't mean it might not have contributed to certain other things getting complicated. But please, I know so many women who grew up before feminism who were abused physically and/or sexually by men, were cheated on, etc. even if they didn't tell anyone about it at the time -I'm really tired of the "good old days" myth.
But I know plenty of stay-at-home moms who are also feminists. And there are plenty of non-feminist men who are very disrespectful of housewives. So I don't think your generality really stands up so well.
"It is however, no surprise to me, given your young age, that the feminism has been very effective in shaping your thoughts and beliefs"
"the feminism"? It's "feminism", not "the feminism". And yeah, I think due to feminism I probably have higher standards in guys than I would otherwise -expect a certain level of honesty and respect, expect them to respect my boundaries, etc. But if you think that's a bad thing, I'm afraid there's no room here for conversation.
"Where did you get this idea from?"
From the poster who said he was no longer a nice guy because women broke his heart. I guess I should have said "a lot of guys". And even still, I wasn't sure it was true -it was meant to be more of a hypothetical.
You know Toluca, you seem to be very argumentitve.. yeah yeah yeah you have a right to your opinion blah blah but YOU are asking us for advice and we're giving it, you can take it or leave it.. stop being so defensive! (I'm also talking about the other question that you posted where I gave my opinion and got shot down from you)
I wasn't looking for a political debate here either. I'm pretty sure you're the one who started the political stuff, at least from my perspective. So now we can stop discussing the feminist movement and get back to discussing /people as they exist in reality currently/, thanks.
And please no more "it's women's fault if men are a-holes" talk. Plenty of men, women, and even children go through hard, unfair situations and manage to not take it out on innocent people from there on out.
"And please no more "it's women's fault if men are a-holes" talk."
I actually agree with this, my only reason for posting is to point out the fact that people can only treat you badly if you allow them to (by allowing them to come into and remain in your life)... I think it's easy to say, 'Men are just dogs' but when are women going to stand up for themselves?
If every woman in a bad relationship just walks away from their abusive or not so great boyfriend or husband and then he moves on and treats the next woman the same and she walks away and this pattern repeats it's self surely this man will learn the error of his ways or accept a single lifestyle but too many women will accept "bad" behavior and the man learns nothing!
It's not our job to 'teach'... and
Surely they aren't justified in having this bad behavior/attitude but women can't just play the victim either after all if we aren't a part of the solution we too are part of the problem... I just wanted to explain how some women contribute... by not having a backbone!
progunr, just wanted to clarify what I was agreeing with, after rereading your post I realized you were blaming Feminism for some things that aren't exactly related...
I agree that some women do disagree with having the traditional lifestyle that some men think they have to provide. Our society has changed and roles are reversing but for better or worse Feminism isnt the culprit...
I'll speak from experience and say that some women in my family look at the things you described as simply being an 'Independent Woman' and this is particularly apparent in Black culture (from what I've seen) because of the lack of successful or even the presence of a Black male influence in families more Black women are "doing it for themselves" so to speak.
They are more educated and better employed than their male counterparts so the thought of giving the male a superior or more traditional role isn't likely because the feeling is "I can do what you do and BETTER!"
I can see how this type of behavior may push some men away so that's why I was agreeing and I also read the post too quickly ;)
Hope this clears things up...
By the way I am black and german (This is what I've seen in my family and friends).
"If every woman in a bad relationship just walks away from their abusive or not so great boyfriend or husband and then he moves on and treats the next woman the same and she walks away and this pattern repeats it's self surely this man will learn the error of his ways or accept a single lifestyle"
Well, except when you consider that there are more abusive men than women, possibly more a-holes who are men than women as well, that leaves a lot of women single as well as it leaves a lot of men single. Maybe if every woman was willing to go without sex for a long period depending on a guy's behavior, this would work -but it seems awfully fictional to me, kind of like that Greek play where women withhold sex until the men agree not to go to war. On an individual basis though, myself (and many women) /do/ break up with a guy if he starts treating us badly. Then he either goes and finds a woman who will put up with it, /or/ he finds a woman he's smitten with and suddenly turns into a great boyfriend. Either way, the first woman in this scenario has already been hurt, even though she walked away. In the latter case, she will probably feel hurt again. This guy, on the other hand, is not necessarily going to change.
Clearly you're missing the point. Whether women unite and all leave a bad relationship (not going to happen), withhold sex (very unlikely) or whatever... the point is women should stop putting up with unwanted behavior! And Until/Unless more women take on that role then they really shouldn't complain because "if we arent a part of the solution we too are part of the problem..."
Are you sure you aren't here just to argue your position?
You seem to be very pessimistic towards men and (me?) although I am not arguing against you just offering the flip side to this scenario... it is only realistic to evaluate each person's role in this, especially considering... we can't change anyone's behavior but our own. You do understand that plenty of women contribute to this behavior you describe (if not look around this site!)?
There is a big difference between what women SAY and THINK that they want, i.e "A nice calm guy" and what women actually are uncounsciously and consciously ATTRACTED to, which i.e can be "The bad boy sort of guy/player".
Many people miss out on this. :)
Okay,
I got to the point where this post became a personal attack and stopped reading. I do want to post my opinion, however:
First off, I am not going to blame women for the change in men or men for the change in women, in a social sense. I do however think that the actions of women STRONGLY influence the actions of men later in their life.
What I mean is this: Women like to complain that there are no nice guys left (I know I am generalizing, so no, not everyone, but you know what I mean). At the same time, men like to complain that women don't like the nice guy. Women claim to want the nice guy, to wish they had someone who would treat them nice, not be an @$$hole constantly and generally treat them like they are worth something more than sex.
The problem: When women find this, they aren't happy. I know plenty of guys who would be considered nice guys, but since they don't do enough of treating women like sh!t, they don't get the attention from them. Why? I have no idea, but there seems to be a strong correlation between how much abuse a guy can give out and how much attention he gets from women. I'm sure some of you don't want to hear that, but don't tell me it isn't true.
I myself have, at times, been disillusioned by the apparent lack of attention that being nice will get a guy. I wouldn't by any means consider myself a needy or desperate individual, but the simple fact that if I want attention from a lot of women I have to put on the front that I am at times ignoring them. I can't explain this, but it certainly seems to be true.
This turned into more of an unorganized rant than anything, but it certainly seems to me that respect and being nice gets you nowhere until you have done your fair share of being an @$$hole and have finally gotten someone interested.
So I have a question, mainly for the women. Am I truly way off the mark here? Is the frustration felt by many men (the nice ones) senseless? Is there really no basis for it? Or, perhaps, is it true that women use phrases like "mysterious" and the "thrill of the chase" to mask the fact that regardless of the amount of complaining, they enjoy the poor treatment...
Hi Big Bird,
I know this is a tough one, and we women are hard to figure out. You know, being a woman, I have had my ex husband, boyfriends, and guy friends ask this so many times, and honestly this is a tough question, and yet interesting question. I can't answer this for all women out there, but I will let you know my thoughts on this from myself... Okay, here we go..
I always want a nice guy, I am big on a man being faithfull to me, and respectiful. Where the 'bad boy' aspect comes in (I hate even using that term) is in addition to the above characteristics, I love when the man in my life is protective, stands up for me, defends me' kind of that 'knight in shining armour/warrior' characteristic. That slight toughness, which makes me feel secure. (I think it is fair to say that most women if not all like the security a man offers). So if I guy has a type of bad a$$ in him, (Not a bad a$$ towards me) it makes me feel, again in addition to the rest of the qualities, sexy, secure, and loved.
I hope this kind of made sense.
These women that are attracted to men that dish out abuse are the ones I don't want to meet. They somehow seem 'defective' to me. I'm a nice guy who married a nice girl. She was attracted to my extroverted nature (she's more of an introvert) but never once did I ever treat her bad. Now we have two great kids and a good life. Hey women, get jerked around by the 'bad boys', us nice people will sit on the sidelines and enjoy the show. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbird213
Hm. I'm a nice guy.. . I think I answered your question.
Hi Sneezy!
How are you. And yes, by reading your posts since I've been here, you are a nice guy :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Agree, I like that. Those women certainly aren't the ones you want to get involved with.
Starlite - I agree 100% that a guy should be able to support and stand up for his girl - that's not what I meant by @$$hole. I was referring more along the lines of the girls that love the guy who goes out, gets drunk and wants to fight anyone and everyone... what sense does that make??
We're a dying breed, that's for sure. Been married twice, so there are a few rough edges, but as I've aged I realise the world does not revolve around me. It revolves around my friends, and damn (pardon the french) it is a lot nicer place nowadays. Maybe its an age thing, maybe men grow up a lot later in life? Who knows? I wish you luck in finding one of us. We're in the phone book, try looking under 1-800-NICE-GUY?Quote:
Originally Posted by Toluca_86
Sorry this is me being flippant... poor sense of humour!
Hi Big Bird,Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbird213
Sorry about that, I went on a course of my own ;). I have no idea as to why some women enjoy that type of guy. I think that type of man is beyond a&&hole status. The women that find these men attractive, my be real insecure, and feel that they can't do any better, I suppose. I don't get it either, BB
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