True, but it's just strange that at 37 years old, two children to two different fathers (me being one), she doesn't know what she wants yet? I guess it takes an eternity for some.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaitou
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True, but it's just strange that at 37 years old, two children to two different fathers (me being one), she doesn't know what she wants yet? I guess it takes an eternity for some.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaitou
The benefit is the same as that of a child acting out... sometimes negative attention is still attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrewolfe
sabrewolfe agrees: Ok, so she feels the lack of attention. Good possibility. Thank you. Makes sense.
Do not misunderstand that to mean that you are not offering her enough attention. It's bad behavior, no matter how you look at it. She is getting a response from you and that is what she is looking for.
This isn't healthy for either of you.
Your right, sorry to question you more about it though, but shouldn't she be looking to get positive attention which is mutually beneficial? I just don't understand how the arguing and breaking up is beneficial to her at all. We are not children, Im 38, she is 37. We both have children and a lot of responsibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Justwantfair
Some adults learn these behaviors as children. When they feel that they only get attention for having choas and hostility around them, they continue poor behaviors.
I have completely read your other threads, but I know you mentioned numerous negative characteristics in her personality... has she seen a doctor or therapist?
No, she mentioned it once before, but never followed up. She doesn't really think she has a problem. She has also said that counselors are a waste of time. She's just too set in her ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Justwantfair
You need to let go, for your own benefit and that of the children.
Dysfunction can't be changed. Two people have to be working on a relationship.
Maybe your just meeting the wrong kind of women.
No kidding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mary99
Sometimes it's hard to tell or takes a while till you find out who they really are, and harder to rid yourself from when you have a kid with them.
Well at least you have been blessed with a beautiful child out of it. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrewolfe
Sometimes we have to walk away from the dumb stuff (her) and deal with the good stuff that matters (your child).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mary99
Sorry to say, but you might be in this game for life. She will either be your girlfriend, or your ex-girlfriend.
To answer your question, in general I think people play games to pass the time and have fun. Someone wins, someone loses. If there is love in a relationship, there would be no games because no one really loses.
There is. I actually studied some psychology a couple years ago to answer similar questions. I'm sure you've seen shows or read books where they explain mating ritiuals for different animals, but nobody ever looks at humans as an animal. If you step back and sort of just watch humans as animals you start to notice patterns of behavior that cut across race, religion, history, or country of origin. At the end of the day, humans are no different then other animals in that we are "programmed" to mate to provide offspring for another generation.Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrewolfe
Women are emotional creatures, by that men usually assume that means they want us to say "I love you" 50 times a day, cry with them, and be sensitive to try and relate to them, etc. In reality what that means is women were given the responsibility (in nature before civilization and the human invention of marriage) of raising their children while men went out and hunted for food or to protect the cave or villiage. A woman could not physically do that as she was not as physically strong as a man, and she had to take care of the children. So a way for her to weed out all the potential males for fathers was to use a women's best weapon, her own emotions and understanding of them to find the best mate and strongest male in the group (back when humans were in small villiages and not big cities) by constantly using games to test his strength. If he was constantly worried about her, he wasn't focused on getting food for the young or defending the home against outsiders, which meant he would not live long and not be a good mate. If a male was weak, and did not defend himself for the woman, he would be weak when it came to hunting or defending the villiage and would not live long enough to assist in the raising of the young. On the flip side, if he was weak, back when resources were scarce the woman would use his weakness to her advantage and get the male to provide her with what resources he could before he would be killed. It was a defense strategy for a female.
Fast forward 50,000 years, and societies have changed but the traits humans use for mating are actually very similar. One reason women constantly play games with your head is they are hard wired to do it. They are constantly testing you to see if you are strong enough for them. Today, we don't fight to save the villiage, but women may want to pick a fight to see how strong you are and if you'll defend herself.
We've all seen examples of a-holes who get women way out of their league and just go, "she could do so much better." But the problem is not that he's the jerk, it's that every other guy before him was so nice (weak) that she ate them and threw them out, when she found someone who stood up for himself, she believed that to be strong, because he'll last the longest to provide for her and the young. Just like her ancestors did in the caveman days. Society has changed, but human behavior remains the same.
Thanks Chuff, now Im starting to understand. I knew that there had to be some sort of benefit somewhere in her logic to why she behaves so destructive, but turns out there is some reason for it. So the mistake we make is taking it at face value, re-assuring them and telling them how much we love them and kissy-kissy, etc. which is what we think they want, but their underlying motives are to size us up? Hope I got that right. In that case, how do we handle these ordeals properly? Should we give no attention to it? I've tried that, but then it becomes an argument of me not paying attention to her or caring how she feels.
Indeed. For example, when something is wrong on the mistakes most men make is asking 53 times, "what's wrong" or "what you mad about." If there upsest about something so bad, they will let you know. So if they don't and they are acting in a bad mood all you can do is assume this her way seeing how you cope with her emotional state of being upset. Personally, I ignore it or laugh at it. Her problems are hers. I don't inherit them because I'm going out with her and she chooses to be upset. Some how we are taught that we have to solve there problems for them. They can solve there own problems, especiallly when they create them.Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrewolfe
A relationship is based on two individuals meeting in the middle. Many men make the mistake of going over the line into her life to solve all her supposed issues because they think logically and it makes sense that if you solve her issues logically, she'll be happier emotionally. But she does not think that way, she thinks it's weak minded that a male spends so much time worrying about her and not about himself or his responsibilities.
Sometimes women will keep bringing up the same problem and we sit there and think "I already told you what to do, why don't you just do it and move on, this is so simple and could have been over with." The problem isn't whatever she's talking about, it's her female brain testing what you do about it. My rule of thumb is I'll give a woman advice, if she doesn't take it, the next time it comes up I tell her, "I already told you what the solution was, there's nothing else to talk about." I'm doing two things by that. The first is I remind her that I offered my help, and the second is I demonstrate to her in a calm, rational manner that I don't put up with the emotional games she plays, which triggers to her that I have some strength.
I suggest you do something similar. You're a happy person right? You've got one life to lead, and you want it to be for the most part happy. If she starts arguing with you, laugh at her and tell her she's being ridicules. She'll get more upset trying to get you to go along. Just keep smiling no matter what she says. You determine how you feel. Not her, and her attitude problem is not something you assume because your dating. That's her problem and hers to keep. If she starts yelling at you ignore it. When she asks, "what do you have to say to that?" flat out tell her, you're a grown man and if she wants an answer to her question she can talk to you like one in a calm rational manner. If not, this conversation is done. You will demonstrate that you care to listen to her concerns, but you will not be disrespected in the process. If she does, she doesn't get the benefit of your time. She will pout but just play it through and stay consistent, and she will actually start to respect you more and the arguments will be less and less because she understands in her own mind she's dealing with someone who can keep her in line.
Interesting questions that you pose Sabrewolf (as I've followed some of your previous posts).
What gain do women get from playing these games?
Is there some possible psychological reason or benefit?
I'm a woman, and I don't play mind games, but I do like being in control of myself and my life. I'm independent, intellectual and analytical and love being in a relationship with my husband. In reading Chuff's post I can understand what he's trying to say, but I don't see myself in it. I've never expected a man to solve my problems for me, nor would I belittle him if he was unable to. My husband and I have a loving, equal and open relationship and we bloody work hard to maintain it.
I actually think that it's hard to generalize about the reasons WOMEN play games, as I believe that both genders play games in relationships.
Having said that, I believe that when either gender plays mind games it's about CONTROL. The sort of mind games you describe confuse, destabilize, demean and manipulate the other person. The gain from this type of behaviour is that the perpetrator keeps their partner on tenterhooks, constantly wondering what they are doing wrong (or what they can do to right things) and the focus and power in the relationship is with the 'controller'. The other person's discomfort is, in itself, a gain for the perpetrator.
Now I'll make a generalization myself and say that more often women are good at forms of control that involve emotional manipulation. This is where they excel and this contrasts with the male's propensity for solutions based thinking. So the male thinks - 'what can I do to make this better', and the woman thinks, 'what can I do to keep him insecure and make sure his attention is on me'. She wins. The cycle continues.
Solutions are really hard in these circumstances, but as I mentioned in a previous post, and as Chuff so rightly suggests, it's about creating strong boundaries. You have to decide what you're prepared to put up with, and stick to it. This of course may not be sustainable in the longer term and may mean leaving the dysfunctional relationship and seeking a healthy one.
I can not believe the nasty advice you have been given. I am in the process of trying to get over a 2 yr relationship with a Hisotonic, Toxic Narcissist! One thing that is saving me is that I finally found out what and why I have been in this mental tourment for so long. He was like Jeckel and Hyde! I even told him that. I was ALWAYS wrong and he was always right about everything and anything that mostly was so insignificant to life I couldn't understand why I was always being lectured instead of just living. Then he would tell me he just wanted to live. I always knew what he was saying to me was definitely about him but have never dealth this such a wacked personality and when he was good he was the best and the man of my dreams. When he was bad he was my worse crulest nightmare.
I know know that finding out that every trait I read about is like reading a Bio on him that he would never really love me and that all that I did was never going to get me anywhere.
I am having a hard time not thinking about him or what he is doing and I understand that I need to work on that. I also found out that the reason I didn't run the first time he flipped and accused me of such BS stuff is because I had become a codependant from my 26 yr relationship with my ex-husband who was an alcoholic. So I am now trying to fix myself so I can live!
;)
Threads merged.
My ex girlfreind and I have been through a lot, we have been off and on for a long time now. We recently had a pretty calm conversation about things and about taking time to see if we could find our way back to each other in a sense. She has trust issues with me as far as female friends I used to have, and the fact that when she broke things off with me this past summer, I dated someone else for a while. We got back together, but it didn't go so well, she always seemed to want to argue about the past too much till I told her I was done. I understand we have a lot of unresolved issues, but my logic to that is we will never be able to agree to the problems of the past, so why even argue about it, I think the past is better left alone. Anyway, it seems neither one of us can completely let go of each other even now.
So now that we are taking this time, we agreed that we will not see other people. I would like to see if we can get along a lot better than before, and if it's worth pursuing further or just ending it for good. I decided to give this one more try, but Im not exactly sure how to go about it. We will be taking things extremely slow, and will talk and see each other occasionally. I would like to see things work out for us, I honestly do not want to be with anyone else, and I don't think she does either. Has anyone else gone through this process successfully? Is there any advice that might make things easier or more productive to working things out. I would like to have a woman's perspective on this also. I hope that I've given enough information on my situation. If not, I would appreciate any questions that would help bring things clearer. Thank you all.
It's unreasonable for her to have trust issues because you were with another woman, since she was the one to break it off with you. What were you supposed to do? Sit on your hands and wait for her to be finished with the men that she was probably messing around with? The funny thing is, after writing that last sentence I realized that that more than likely is what she was doing.
That being said, she's being unreasonable and definitely had her cake, didn't tell you how much and is now shaming you for indulging yourself. It's a trick so she can get all the control and power back in the relationship. Single women are mostly miserable and NEED to be with men to alleviate their boredom. This includes her as she was definitely getting with someone while you were apart, but she probably has a selective memory when it comes to her "transgressions". She was doing exactly what you were doing while apart and don't you forget it. Remember this and don't let her browbeat you into feeling remorseful for being dumped by her.
Leave your past in the past. If she can't get over it then she's obviously not worth it. I remember having a conversation on here with you before and if it's the same woman that I remember you definitely need to proceed with caution. You're a man. Remember to act like one.
All that being said. Give it a shot if you want. But don't give up any ground to her. Set boundaries and limits without saying them and carry yourself with confidence during this newest version of your relationship.
Good luck.
Sabrewolf, is this the same woman that you talked about in these threads?
All his threads were merged for the full story.
If it is, I don't know that there can be a way back. The trust issues will keep coming up again and again, and they will become the excuse for everything that goes wrong in your relationship.
Things will be OK while you're still uncertain and she doesn't have your commitment, but once you start to believe that you want to be with her again, you'll start to relive your previous problems.
Tread carefully. If you both GENUINELY want to resolve your issues, then counseling is the only way to gain a fresh perspective.
I whole heartedly disagree that the past should be ignored, as those issues and feelings always come back to rip you a new one later. Issues should be resolved before you can move forward, not ignored to show up later.
I think you both have had enough, and should resolve things for the sake of the kids involved, not to get back together.
Defining boundaries of good behavior should be at the top of the list.
Yes, this is the same woman. The threads merged by Tal gives some history to the situation. Im glad he did, I read back over some of those things and regained some more insight that is useful now.
Her and I spent this weekend together with our son. It was a very good time for him, he really enjoyed having that time again with both his mom and dad together. She and I had a few conversations, nothing too heavy, about our relationship. We both see the past differently and have agreed not to discuss it anymore, because it will only cause an argument. We spent most of our alone time peacefully watching movies and laying with each other. We agreed that neither one of us will date others or have any secrets from each other. We are taking it slow, and will just try to get along and see if we can rebuild what we had originally started this relationship based on. And also during this time, we are working on our own problems and issues.
That sounds like a solid plan. Good luck.Quote:
We both see the past differently and have agreed not to discuss it anymore, because it will only cause an argument. We spent most of our alone time peacefully watching movies and laying with each other. We agreed that neither one of us will date others or have any secrets from each other. We are taking it slow, and will just try to get along and see if we can rebuild what we had originally started this relationship based on. And also during this time, we are working on our own problems and issues.
Thanks Tal.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Threads merged again
Hi everyone. I really messed up with my girlfriend now. Last weekend, I did something I thought I would never do and I am so ashamed of. I don't feel I deserve anything at this point. As some of you may know by reading some of my threads about me and my girlfriend, we have had a rocky relationship for three years now. She has been so unstable, and I accepted so much of her behaviour and tried so hard to make things work. Anyway, last weekend she came by. We talked for a while, she was yelling and telling me how she felt. She was crying and yelling. She told me we should just let it go between us and I agreed and peacefully went back into my house. About a half hour later, she came back crying and asking me if we could be back together. We talked again, she yelled some more, and I told her to just go home. She didn't leave, she just sat in her car in the driveway. So I went back out, we talke some more. She wanted to go to a hotel room together and finish talking and spend some time together. So I agreed and we went. Shortly after we got there, we were arguing again. She has a tendency to be violent, I had her arrested for it when we lived together. But this time, I got violent with her. I never thought I would or could do such a thing. There has been numerous times in our past and I would never hit her back, I would just take it or call the police. I could never imagine I would ever do such a thing. But I did. That ended things completely. I feel as though I became someone I didn't even know that night. And she never expected that.
I know I'll never be able to take back what I did. I feel so bad, you couldn't imagine how bad I feel. I want to write her an apology letter just to let her know how bad I do feel and that was something I never meant to do and how much I regret it. I need to do this, I need help, I know I don't deserve it, but I've got to do this.
Thanks for reading this.
Have you considered just breaking up. Both of you fighting all the time, each being violent and worst.
So before someone wakes up with a knife in their back, it is time to move on and get counseling
I have, and I know this relationship has gone to far to come to this. No matter what we have been through together, I love her with all my heart. I just her to know that what happened that night was never something I ever wanted to happen. I can't even understand it myself, or what brought me to behave in such a way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Before you ever want her to forgive you to perssue a friendship or maybe even get back together you need to forgive yourself. I know this may sound crazy, but you deserved to hit her back. You're the victum suffering from abuse. And yelling and arguing is indeed another form of abuse, both about the same, emotionally. Im not saying its okay that you hit her, but you had a right to stop her from hitting you. You probably shouldn't try to continue your relationship unless you want to go to counseling together. Id tell her you love her to death, and you never meant to hurt her, but three years of the same thing was getting old and something just snapped. And if it hadn't happened with you it was going to happen with her. Tell her you're extremely sorry. If you want her back tell her to go to conseling with you, after all. She sounds like the one that needs help.
"Unhappy couples tend to get stuck in negative, destructive patterns, they have fewer positive interactions than happy couples and are unable to resolve problems.” Does this sound familiar?
sabrewolfe, I along with others have been following what is happening in your relationship. I'm really VERY sorry that it's got to this point and I won't ask you to elaborate on the gory details.
You are clearly aware that it's never OK to resort to physical violence and I can understand that you're suffering because you allowed yourself to respond in this way. I can only assume that what happened is an expression of your intense frustration and anger and that you allowed yourself to be sucked into the drama.
Problem is, that by resorting to violence you've completely played into her hands. Now you're the one that is in the wrong and you will never be allowed to forget it. I also assume that the relationship is now over. If it isn't, it needs to be. You can see how destructive it has become for both of you!
By all means write to her. However, I would not, in writing, admit to any violence against her. Remember that this could be held against you and that she may even charge you with assault if you are silly enough to put it in writing. Perhaps you can simply apologize 'for the events' that happened and state that you never meant for your relationship to end this way. I would not, under any circumstances, be admitting to any physical violence in a letter to her.
Yes, you feel awful, and the relationship has ended under less that auspicious circumstances. But don't be silly. Protect yourself and put some distance between you.
This relationhsip NEVER was good for you - you have real proof of that now. Please, please don't ever accept bad behavior from anyone in a relationship again and don't ever yourself resort to physical violence again.
This is your wake up call - please do not ignore it.
Take care and be kind to yourself. We all make mistakes - sometimes even big ones.
I'm feeling a little angry about this to be honest with you.
The relationship has been toxic and violent and off the wall ridiculous since the beginning.
Yet, you keep going back for more.
Instead of walking away, you assault her. Instead of staying in your house and letting her pout in her car, you go outside 'to talk', and end up in a hotel room brawl.
Over and over. Pete and repeat. She says, you say, she hits, you hit, and the destructive dance goes on.
And you worry about an apology letter?
Skip the letter to her, and write one to yourself. Tell yourself why the relationship is over, and why this self destructive connection with her is ruining your life. Tell yourself what you're going to do to end it once and for all, and then sign it.
It really has to stop. An apology now is useless.
Jake is spot on-you need to be honest with yourself and realise why this toxic mess should be laid to rest.
You have a child together,the wellbeing and future happiness of your child should be a priority now,so get that sorted out.
Forget the apology,but maybe see a therapist for yourself,to go through your own issues.
You are all right in everything you all have said. I appreciate all of the caring input. I have been struggling with this toxic person too long that was beginning to change me into someone I never wanted to be. I did write an apology letter, and kept it brief. And I never received a reply, which is fine. But the strange part is that she forwarded it to someone, I don't know who. She still had access to my email account at the time. I asked her about it and she totally denies it, which Im not surprised. So anyway, it doesn't matter anymore. I've decided to put her behind me, have no contact with her, get myself staightened out, and will pursue legal visitation with my son. And if, and I don't know if she will at this point, but if she does ever come around to me drunk again, I will call the police and let them deal with her, and then I will take my son.
Great decisions,I wish you and your son all the best.
Good luck. :-)
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