Thank you both. I will take some time to consider my options.

The last line in her email makes me very sad, not over analysing here. Just that she doesn't consider herself 'normal'

Sounds like a personal problem to me, and no excuse for anything.

She needs help. She jumps from one relationship to another and that is not good. It's like she is looking for something and does not know what she's look for.
But that is her problem now and she will eventually find her way.
You can no longer enable her. You have your own baggage to sort through.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Homegirl 50

She needs help. She jumps from one relationship to another and that is not good. It's like she is looking for something and does not know what she's look for.
But that is her problem now and she will eventually find her way.
You can no longer enable her. You have your own baggage to sort through.

---

Well yes, best not be told that by me mind! ;)

She does know she is looking for something, somewhere inside her is a lot of unhappyness, insecurity and low self esteem. I could never understand that within her as I have never felt like that myself. Whilst no doubt I am carrying trauma with me right now.

I have a theory on those that have a need/wish to become counsellors (as she does) in that I think a larger percentage on those type of courses than say an engineering course are emotionally damaged, it's like they think the course and the career will fix them. I may be way out of the ball park on this, just a theory based upon the ex, her counsellor and how she describes those on the course. Weird really.

Not posted for a few days. So a little update to where I am at! :)

After her last email agreeing NC, saying no need to reply to her email or text, it took her less than 24 hours to call me! Arggghhhh. I pick up and she wants an answer on me dropping my son around on Thursday to play. Saying it was driving her mad and bothering her.

Well I had cancelled my camping trip at this point and agreed and said we would see how it went. I dropped him off this morning (I was not going to go in her house), anyway they were all outside her house when I got there. I did not engage with her children, this makes me a little sad but I have to think of myself here and protect myself.

I was there about a minute I guess and left, I was polite but no more than that. I didn't feel any emotion towards her really, just all a bit numb all round I guess.

So anyway I am doing OK I reckon. Oh yes I have made a mental list of all her negative points against her positives, it's all a little one sided and I tried to be as objective as I can! :)

At the same time I still feel sadness for the loss of family which I now know will never be the same, shame.

Will be sorting out holiday we had booked over the next few days, will of course be going with my son and my family. She is going to be pissed when I tell her, but she made her bed and she can lie in it, with her new rebound man! Oh no I don't want to sound bitter, it just sneaks out every now and then :)

Have a good time with your son,

Arggghhh, here is where I am at.

On Thursday, she was texting at various points through the day whilst she had my son with her, said that he was being lovely, sweet, funny etc, even offered to look after him in the summer holidays when I have contact and I have to work. So she gradually extended the visit until after tea time, I didn't mind as I knew my son would be having a good time.

I go round to pickup him up as agreed and get drawn into the house, we chat and do the family thing for about half an hour, I can't pretend that I didn't enjoy it, it was all very relaxed and everyone seemed so happy. I noticed her elder son had been missing for about 10 minutes, she finds him upstairs on his bed crying his heart out. He comes down and I know intuitively why he is crying, he realises that it is not the same as it was before, i.e. I am taking my son away and he is not staying. I hug him and tell him that he we still see my son, it seems to make no difference to him. Well through text I find out that he was unable to sleep and was still upset a few hours past his bedtime, and that she doesn't know what she is doing anymore.

So next day I decide to take my son to the seaside, just me and him for a day out, I did consider inviting her son but thought it best not too. Whilst on the way she calls asking if we can all go out on Saturday afternoon as her daughter has a party and there are some activities
That our two sons could probably do together with me. I tell her I will think about it and let her know. She texts a couple of hours later saying it was wrong of her to put on me in that way and if I don't want to do that then that is fine.

In the end I agree to take her two sons out, my son and my ex stepdaughter out on Saturday afternoon whilst she is at the party, I said there was no suitable activities for them and that we shouldn't do the happy family thing as we are not one anymore, so it was better I took them all out separately. She said she was confused about everything, I said that she should should stick with her decision and that the upset of her son should not sway her the other way.

We had a good afternoon out and I returned them, her parents where visiting and I dropped them off before she returned from the party. Her parents asked if they would be seeing me again before they returned home and that it would be nice, I simply said I have no idea.

So I then receive a text from her late on Saturday night saying, I am obviously not communicating with her, her son is still up and is crying and her parents are worried and now and I am giving her the cold shoulder, she is f***** off with it all and it is perhaps better that I do not bother with the kids if it is too much for me!

Well it transpires that she had sent a text earlier in the evening saying ty for taking them out etc, they had a great time and so on. I never received that text.

I told her not to take it out on me, I understand she is upset and so is her son but it is not fair to have a go at me. She ends up saying sorry in a strange way, she also says that she will not bother me with her concerns, she thinks they should be with her sons father who is more constant, no need to reply. I didn't reply.

So since then we have had 2 very short telephone conversations (Sunday/Today) just practical stuff, she says she will talk to me at some point about her son's feelings and the texts on Saturday night.

I have nearly been in tears a couple of times typing this out (sorry it is so long), really because of all the upset this is still causing for me, her and her son. Also for how she came across so angry at me in text on Saturday evening, completely unnecessary. I was actually OK with the taking the children out and didn't have an issue with it at all.

This morning I felt like crap again, but I have processed those feelings throughout the day and I feel OK again.

I am struggling to find a way forward though as I do not really want my son to stop seeing her children but if this is how it ends up then it cannot continue I guess.

This is in your hands. You have to do what is best for you and YOUR family. Stop allowing her to suck you in her drama. I'm not saying she is malicious in doing it, but she is doing it and you are letting her.
If your son is OK with not seeing her kids, do what is best for your son.
As long as you are having these feelings after seeing her not talking to her, you have not healed.
NC, nothing less.

Thank you for the reply homegirl 50 :)

I am not healed, I am now quite sure of that, although I am by no means back at square one. I am not so sure that my son will be OK not seeing her children to be honest. For instance he asked on Sunday if he was going to see them. They do genuinely get on so well, and have known each other since birth.

I agree about what you say i.e. getting sucked into her drama, it is just so hard not to, I love her children and miss them, I miss her too and probably still love her, although probably accept there will be no way back.

So yes I need to do what is best for myself and my son, I am just not sure what that is anymore.

I have always figured a clean break is the best for all, since you both have demonstrated a profound lack of dealing with your own children in a way that can work for them, and for you both.

Stop contacting her, and letting her contact you, and I think over time you both can heal, and deal with your OWN families. And through your healing apart from each other, your children will have time to accept, and adjust to the situation.

Remember it was her decision to not commit to you that started this whole thing, right. It hurts right now, I feel that, but in time, maybe you both will be able to make better decisions.

talaniman

Thank you for your input.

I think as you have pointed out, both our emotions are still too raw. However I thought I conducted myself very well on the 2 occasions of contact, I guess you probably mean I should not have got drawn into the house and into the family thing. It was a little surreal really, she was happy and relaxed (the happiest she had seen her since the breakup, her old self) and so was I and the children (obviously her older son was not), I knew we both felt that at the time. I am not just trying to cling on by saying it and yes I know she is unable to commit to me, hence where we are now.

We have had no contact since Monday morning, wow I hear you say, well that's about 36 hours, I think a record for us both! Anyway I have my sense of humour back ;)

I am still not convinced that no contact is the way forward for the children. I think as you pointed out a few days ago if it was to work we needed to set boundaries and be in a divorcée mode, we never did that. Perhaps that is the way forward.

I have just read my last paragraph and think, hmmmmm is that really just for the children? I think the same could be said on her part as well.

You are right we both need to find some clarity in our minds here.

Well a little update. I went round this evening with my son, I initiated this as my son asked if we could go round. I dropped him off and she asked if I wanted a cup of tea (yes yes I am from the UK :) ). I took her up on the offer.

It all went very well really, no tensions. I was there with my son for a couple of hours, we just talked and talked about what we had been up to etc and got on really well as we do generally. She talked about how she has been feeling, I actually managed to listen properly without my own agenda. There was no real heavy talk, just nice light hearted, healthy chit chat, oh and my amazing sense of humour!! :)

I feel in quite a good place right now, and it is not based on any false hopes, well I bloody well hope not. It was just nice to see her and the children and I suppose catch up and talk quite openly with what seemed like no hidden agenda.

I had a good chat with one of my sisters earlier in the day, she is great to talk too about such matters. I think I came to the realisation that I continue to move on with my life and what will be will be, no point in hanging onto the past, it will only determine my future if I let it. I hope how I feel right now continues.

I pinged her a quick text afterwards just checking her eldest son was OK, she said yes he is OK and that it was nice to see us.

Maybe we can make this work out for the children's best interests, although I have concerns for the longevity of it all.

Well the story continues... Oh no I hear you say! :)

She texted and called Thursday/Friday last week, I help her sort something out and she tells me of her woes as usual about her upset son and so on on Friday.

I have left it up to her to inititiate any contact for some time now. She always does in the end. So I don't hear from her over the weekend and she texts me Monday eve telling me that our ex stepdaughter is going to move in with her, and also the problems with her ex husbamd, not taking the kids on more to help her out. I am polite but distant. She didn't reply to my last text asking a question, saying she fell asleep, so she calls me this morning, once again to tell me of her woes, no how are you, how are you getting on etc? not that I really feel the need I just consider it polite considering the circumstances. I ended the conversation a little abruptly but was not rude, she had to get to college anyway.

So in the afternoon she texts, 'are you pissed off with me?' I said no, and I don't know where she got the idea from. Anyway we text some more and leave it at that. I apparently call her by accident whilst at the gym, check my call log and nope it wasn't me, short conversation to sort that one out! :)

She texts throughout the evening until late just general light hearted banter between us. Then asks if I could do her a huge favour. At this point I am thinking is this where we have been going all evening! She asks if I can look after two of her kids with my son tomorrow whilst she takes her eldest son for an evening concert at school.

I say no, saying that I would feel used, and at this moment in time I feel it the best all round. She needs to look out for herself and I need to do likewise. I am not being vindictive or hurtful etc etc. What it is exactly that you want/expect from me. I have said many times I cannot be your friend right now.

Well her reply is it's OK I get what you are saying, then I guess this it. We say goodbye. I know your not being hurtful.

I reply saying if she wants to take it that way then it is up to her. I asked her a direct question about what she wants/needs, she needs to answer that so we know where the boundaries lie. Maybe she doesn't know the answer, but she needs to try and be honest. Also that I am not expecting her motivation to be that she wants me back. I said also I understood our continuing contact was for the children. I respect her decision that the relationship as it was is over but she needs to be honest with herself and me and realise exactly what she wants from me.

No reply to that text, although it was sent after 1AM here, didn't expect one anyway irrespective of time.

So I am not down or even angry right now, I feel absoloutely fine. For the 1st time in a long time I have stood up for myself and said no to her, I knew she wasn't going to like it, but hey ho! :) She is so manipulative (yes yes I allowed that in the past), her text so that's it then I guess we say goodbye, dramatic to say the least, all because she didn't get her own way. I do not hate her, I still see her as a funny, generally kind and caring person whom I had a great connection with and what I considered a great family too. Her traits and behaviour border on narcissistic at times, although I am obviously not qualified to diagnose! Once again just one BIG shame for BOTH our families.

Continue to stand your ground. But you need to stop so much communication even if she instigates it. She still has a foothold.

Good job recently. You are right in thinking that you should only contact her so the children can see each other.

She seems to be using you like her therapist. You aren't her therapist or her friend. You are her ex and it just so happens your children are friends. Sure you can be curteous, but letting her stay so involved in your life with all these conversations that are irrelevant to your childrens' relationships is only hurting you. You need to either not respond to her texts or tell her to stop texting you.

Thank you homegirl50, I will stand my ground. I feel very strong now. Her behaviour is bizarre to me, I would like to rationalise it and I can't, yes I know I don't need to. I guess I have been a doormat for her, nice! :)

reckless

Thank you for your input. I wish I was her therapist, she pays her current one quite handsomely! I was going to insist that our contact/comms would only be about the children seeing each other, the only thing I think that stopped me was that I thought her reaction would be similar to that of tonight and that the children would suffer.

I took her 3 children and my son out for the day at the weekend. I arranged this via text and a quick call. Call was kept strictly to 'business' as was any text. I had kind of agreed to it some time ago. Anyway we all had a good day out, it was great to see her children and for my son and her eldest to spend time together :)

I advised her that we were on our way back and she metioned food for them all and a takeout. So I promptly arranged with family to have food with them so I had a good reason not to linger during drop off or to get drawn in. So I dropped off and quickly left, she was clearly wanting to cry as we left, I didn't say a word and I was fine with it all. I don't like to see her upset but no point in engaging it imo.

Got happy father day text from her and then a call from her youngest. Again texts afterwards but mainly about the children, I do not respond to any content other than the children, for instance her apologising for maybe being rude when I collected/dropped off, she was just trying to not draw me into her emotional state apparently.

Anyway I am doing OK, think I handled it all rather well, however I still have this thing in my mind that I should cut her off completely. It is not about being selfish and making the children/her suffer. I realise that this situation in the long run probably cannot continue, she/I will meet somebody else and the reality of those relationship/s will knock it all on the head. Am I strong enough to make that leap right now? I don't think so. I realise I am going round in circles with this, bloody children :) I do sincerely love them all to bits but maybe I need/must let go of that for my own future emotional health.

Well it has been a couple of weeks since my last post and I am still here lurking around in the shadows :D

I finally decided to tell her that I was not going on holiday with her and the children and that I was going away with my 2 nieces and my parents. I needed to collect some stuff from her garage for a car boot sale so I texted her, went up and told her face to face (we had been in NC for 8 days) I thought I knew she wouldn't take it well but I wanted to tell her directly.

She seemed Ok about it and I explained that I thought it was for the best. We chatted for some time and all seemed well, she shed a few tears as usual. She agreed that I was correct some time ago and that she felt better with NC apart from discussing the children seeing each other.

Next morning she starts with a text nice and early, the flights were hers, I should have discussed it with her 1st and that her son will be devastated. I explained that the flights are still hers if she wants them and she can book accommodation wherever she wishes as we simply booked four more flights and then our own accommodation. She said she couldn't handle that so I duly cancelled her flights. I explained that I felt guilty BUT it was simply a compromise too far for both of us.

Midweek I get drawn into the ex step daughters drama, her mother has ditched her 20 miles from home, can I pick her up, fortunately I am on the way to pick my son up from school so pick her up and drop her off at the current (or not current rather) ex's. I do not go in and simply leave.

Last weekend she starts contact and I take her son and mine out, all OK. Next day texts from her. I get drawn in a little but cut it all dead. NC since.

To be honest I am not doing the best here, hence my post. When I went round last weekend and her youngest (4 years old, with whom I have the greatest bond with as I have been a significant part of his life for 3 years) and he is all over me, bless him. Seeing them all together in her house all sat on the sofa in a line and the fun they all have together and thinking that this in not sustainable in the long term.

I know that I chose to push her away (yes she did end the relationship) and said I couldn't be friends right now and that I cannot play happy families for my own healing reasons, BUT it hurts knowing that this family as it was is no longer and that is it now it will not continue. OK I can keep myself busy, go to the gym, see friends, go out etc etc, that doesn't take way that big train wreck that it is for every one involved.

So in circles again, I either continue in the same vein as I know the pain will ease in time or I cut off now and the pain eases more quickly but at the expense of the children.

Sorry for the long post , you all probably lost interest some time ago, it does help me typing this out though I think :)

You know what you need to do, you just need to stick to it.

I probably do know, can I do it now? NOPE! So I ask myself why can't I? Be honest to myself. It is for the children AND letting go of her completely, the children swing it. I honestly do think if there were no children involved that I would have healed significantly more by now.

I have been quite strong with her over the last few weeks, I can see that my change in stance and distance offends and upsets her, she no longer gets her own way anymore.

If it wasn't the children, it would be something else. You are still attached to this woman, you don't want to let go.
The kids will be fine when the adults make up their minds.
You two are the ones making it hard for the kids. Stop playing yo yo.

Homegirl50

Ty for your reply, you are always here :) I do sincerely mean that.

My 1st reaction is that you are being harsh with respect to us making it hard on the children. You see if they were my children it would so much simpler, I could simply have them for the weekend and midweek, my son gets to see his best friend and I get the pleasure of them. Yes I know that they are not mine and it cannot be that way, I am not their father and never saw myself as a replacement for him.

So I have the pleasure of losing all of them and my son loses his best friend and I get to heal more quickly.

Ok, my 2nd reaction is that you are probably correct in what you say, because as I have identified in the long run this is not sustainable. Both our emotions are still too raw and neither of us are ready to be friends, I have never done the friend thing with an ex anyway.

More introspection on my part required I think.

Like I said, you know what you need to do, you just need to stick to it.
When you do that, your son will be fine. If she does that, her kids will be fine.
It is up to you , it seems, to make sure this break stays clean.

Your inability to separate the children's needs, from your own is a problem. Its like a divorce really. You do for the kids, and keep the ex as a strictly business association.

Don't say you can't because its done all the time. I draw the line where children are used for power by adults, and in your case, your ability to separate the two. Yeah its tough, and hurtful, so what? The best interest of the kids is all you can plan your actions around and if that means sucking up some misery and pain on your part, do it for them, and who cares how long your personal healing takes.

Make a decision to do what's best for them, as they cannot rant, vent, or get support like you can. They can't tell the adults what to do about adult problems, so why should they suffer because of those adult problems?

That's my point, they should NOT!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Your inability to separate the children's needs, from your own is a problem. Its like a divorce really. You do for the kids, and keep the ex as a strictly business association.

Don't say you can't because its done all the time. I draw the line where children are used for power by adults, and in your case, your ability to separate the two. Yeah its tough, and hurtful, so what? The best interest of the kids is all you can plan your actions around and if that means sucking up some misery and pain on your part, do it for them, and who cares how long your personal healing takes.

Make a decision to do whats best for them, as they cannot rant, vent, or get support like you can. They can't tell the adults what to do about adult problems, so why should they suffer because of those adult problems?

Thats my point, they should NOT!!!!

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Talaniman

I can assure you that I do not use the children for power in any way, I have been on the end of that for the last 5 years from my ex wife, whom despite a court order for access etc continues to grasp that little piece of control left, even though ultimately she could face serious consequences for doing so. Unfortunately for that to happen it would cost me potentially over £15.000 to get to that point, and at any point along the way she plays the game with the order and all that 'investment' is wasted!

I sincerely love all of the four children and do want what is best for them, I simply do not know what it is. You talk of sucking up the pain, maybe you think I should have gone on holiday as a 'psuedo family?', my decision not to go with them was not impulsive nor ill thought out. It was based upon what I deemed best for everyone, most certainly not about power. I have been through a divorce with my own child involved so I know perfectly well how it should be dealt with, I guess the difference is that at the end I had no feelings for her (ex wife)

She (ex gf) asked me yesterday if there were no children involved would I cut contact with her completely? I told her that 100% I would cut contact with no children involved, My reaction was on reflection 100% what I feel, not emotive.

Within 2 minutes of meeting her yesterday she is in in tears, she tells me she is seeing someone else, well I knew this anyway we discussed it weeks ago. Ok the true reason for her telling me is that she thought from my distancing that I was seeing somebody else and wanted to know
If I was. At this point I told her I had some very intimate fun at the weekend, which I did. Fun being the word, nothing serious we both knew that and that was that. Yes I am a little embarrassed about it she was much younger than me, I didn't seek it out it just happened. I am sure I will be castigated for this!

This caused her considerable hurt I could see it. Next day I get a text saying she is now in a childlike state, cannot function and drinking at the thought of me with someone else.

We are hurting each other, we both know it as well, yet we both cannot truly let go. We could sit with each other and talk for hours and have a great time, we both know and acknowledge that.

I have read the above and see some inconsistencies. I will not edit it, it should serve to tell me how I am still emotionally a bit of a mess.

Talinaman I know you are here to help and I generally find your posts insightful. Please do not take my emotive response badly.

I think for your own sanity and self preservation you need to cut all ties with this woman. Do not allow her to use the kids just so she can see you.
I still think your son will be OK. Hers would probably OK too if she would stop putting them in the middle.
But as long as she is being unstable, leave her alone, stay away.

Maybe they can't see each other as much as THEY want, but for the kids, YOU put your feelings aside and give them what s best for them.

Maybe its ME who expects you to be able to put your personal feelings aside for THEIR sake and ignore what ever game she plays, but Emo or NOT, what's best for the kids, all of them, is what matters, not the feelings of the adults at all, in my view.

If it takes you a hundred years to get over this ex, so what? Is it worth it for the kids, or can't you handle your emotions for a higher purpose besides this stupid back and forth, between exes?

Don't mean to be harsh, please understand, but the relationship with the kids, and you, is more important to me, than the emotional inadequacies between adults. I assume you feel the same so one of you has to be mature, and do the right thing. If she can't that only leaves YOU!

So what's the problem?

Well thank you for input once again. I had given this some serious thouht over the last few days.

Oh I omitted that last Monday during our last conversation that I asked if she thought that maybe she had some sort of personality disorder. She said that she thought she maybe Borderline. I looked this up and christ it is more than likely true from my observation, yes I know I am not qualified to diagnose her. I can only assume that she has either considered this with her therapy or through what she is learning at college.

Anyway I decided not to contact her with regard to seeing my son this weekend, although we agreed that there would be some contact this weekend. I would have done so if my son requested seeing her son, he never did.

She texted today and suggested Tuesday I agreed and we set a time.

My ex stepdaughter now lives with her, it's her ex stepdaughter too! The stepdaughter texts me asking to see my son and ask about her iPod that her mother was supposed to send over with my son. Well me and the ex had sorted out the contact and I told her I had the iPod. She had not relayed this to her. I wondered at this point if they actually still lived together. Anyway the penny drops with me, she obviously can't discuss me with ex stepdaughter whilst he is around. Call me paranoid but my gut instinct is usually correct, her new bloke is there and no weekend contact between the children was about her having her new relationship and them me dropping my son off in the week when he is not around.

I can see history repeating itself here, she can't be alone and only thinks of herself and will throw herself fully into this man being around all the time very very quickly. What does that teach her children?

She is so full of BS, her actions do not match her words. Monday she says, I love you, I dreamily think of us back together in 2 years time. Yeah righto.

So... I have texted her saying that Tuesday is cancelled, it is best for everyone that we do not contact each other again and that the kids do not see each other.

No reply. I do not particularly want or need one to be perfectly honest. She needs to take a huge look at herself and get some help for the sake of herself and her children.

My justification for NC with the children?

Ultimately the contact will end, she would have ended it or continued to hide the contact from her relationship. It is best for everyone's sake it ends now.

I do not want my son involved anymore, she is emotionally unstable. Ultimately if contact continued he would have heard/seen her new relationship. What would that teach my son about commitment and families? Quickly disposable and meaningless I would think.

I miss the kids and the 'family', I have always put them 1st. Enough is enough I am done. It's so sad for all of us, but I am done with all this BS.

I could have dealt with the children aspect of contact and took longer to heal, yes it would have hurt. I can see through her crap now and know it unltimately would end in more hurt for me and my son.

You look after your son, leave her kids to her.
I think breaking all contact is the right thing to do.

Yep homegirl50 you nailed it right on the head from your 1st post, doh! :)

I know it took me a while to get to this point, but it was hard with children involved that I did/do actually love.

It was really strange when I look back, the 1st 6 months or so of the relationship were amazing to me, she mirrored me. She started smoking. Loved to watch films, shared the same sense of humour etc etc. Over time she used some of these things to devalue me with! Every time she asked for a break was because I had expressed concern with her pulling away from me and not feeling loved. She said once that I was needy, I am so not needy, it was her that was so needy. Think they call that projection.

So her fear of abondonment leads her to request a break! Ffs. Talk about me being blinded by 'love'.

There is one string left here. I said in my last post that our ex stepdaughter now lives with her. The ex stepdaughters relationship with her mother is not good, mental and physical abuse, she no longer has contact with her. Her only contact with my son (her half brother) is through me. I have texted her and expained that there will no more contact with my son and the ex's children, I am sorry that she is caught up in other peoples relationship BS once again. She can always see her brother and I will not stop that.

She said it was not my fault and she understands and thanked me for letting her still see her brother. I have arranged for her to spend some time with my son in town on Monday. I have not attached any rules to it, that seems pathetic and I am sure she gets the jist of things though.

I guess I am quite looking forward to my holiday on Wednesday :D A week away with my great supportive parents, my amazing son and my two beautiful nieces. I know we will have a great time.

Enjoy yourself.