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You be open and honest with her, tell her how you feel and that you don't think it's going to work out because you can't handle the career path she has chosen. No one is going to blame you, I couldn't date a stripper, not a lot of people would be able to
I don’t think it is a trust issue any longer. For awhile I did worry that maybe she did things that she wouldn’t admit to me that she actually did when giving lap dances. She told me this whole story of how she dances to avoid the most ‘intimate’ things that are quite common. And she’s very smart and studies how to arouse a man, in order to keep him wanting more, without just going and grabbing his crotch. That sensuality can be in the eyes, touching their head, breathing in their ear….and make all the money she needs. She doesn’t need $500 a night and let some guy molest her for 10 dances in order to get it. $30-40 from the stage and $50-100 in dances and she’s done for the night.
What I’ve been feeeling lately though is not lack of trust, but simply the knowing of the things that she does do. For a stripper, it is extremely tame. But in the past I was OK with her dancing on stage, I loved it when she could make half or more of her dollars in a night just going across the strages without anyone ever even touching her or sitting with anyone. That let’s you be very selective who to sit with. I had gotten OK at her sitting with people and casually putting their hands on her arms, legs, the side of her , giving her a backrub, etc. And the dancing she says she would occaisionally brush a guys cheek with the outside of her breast, hit him on his legs or beltline with her during the dance so she doesn’t have to touch his crotch with her , and all manner of little tricks to keep the contact to a minimum.
She says she can’t keep guys from grabbing her when she goes to a bar downtown, in there it is harder. She minimizes it by moving, but if you act like a and get rude with them, there walks your money…so it may take a few seconds.
We’ve discussed it and she basically says she doesn’t have eyes in the back of her head, so they can reach and grab occaisionally and she can’t stop it or intercept immediately. If he keeps it up after she moves his hands, she’ll quit dancing for him after that song when she’s forced to grab his damn arms and hold them in place. I respect all of that, as far as dancers go that is about as clean as you can ever get.
But in our conversations to know exactly what goes on for my peace of mind……she basically admits that there are times, with some guys, she’ll let them grab her . It’s all a gray area as to how much is too much, how much is sliding the hands and how much is kneading it like bread. And I’m just exhausted in thinking and stressing about it.
I don't want to give her an ultimatum. I don't know how to tell her that this is the reason for so many of our problems (or the underlying reasons behind my feelings, shallow, selfish or not), but I don't know how to tell her I just think it is unreasonable for me to stay in a relationship where I'm miserable all of the time. Even if I can agree with all of her logic why I shouldn't be.
I will just finish with some of her quotes, to give an idea of her perspective. And hell, some of the reasons I've been able to be convinced to keep trying over and over... because I truly believe she is a very good person, and deserves someone who will trust her, support her, believe in her, and not emotionally damage the relationship because of their own jealousy, possessiveness, and insecurity. I have a guilt complex also so I'm fairly quick to blame myself for these quite rational feelings... and quickly turn to her side of the discussion...
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“I want my freedom back, without feeling like i'm asking you to make some huge sacrifice, when all i'm really asking you to do is trust me.... and i have to wonder why that's so hard.”
“you want me to assure you that this will not happen again, that you can feel trust that I have a handle on it, and I will conduct myself with dignity. Yet you have to find some way to trust me and afford me that dignity.”
“and I am also asking you for the same respect you would expect in regards to your job and coworkers. If you want it to be just a job, then you have to stop making it about something sexual, or some kind of ownership, or some like that... and let me do the job as a job, without all the personal that unfortunately makes it feel like less of a job and more of an affair I'm having with someone else.”
“Well that was my world, my life, my income, my ability to support myself, and you just disregarded the importance of it as a job, and fell into it just like everyone else and brought my personal buisness, my personal life, things that are supposed to be seperate and under my control... into that club.... and it did effect me. You may question my ability to deal with it as a job, but it is your inability to deal with it as a job, that has caused us the most problems.... and brings some additional pressures that I've never had to deal with before.”
“I feel guilty for going to work, I feel guilty for not going to work, I feel guilty for appreciating the freedom of that job, I feel guilty because as much as you say you don't want me to quit for you... I did... because I couldn't deal with it anymore. I feel like there's something wrong with me because I like doing that job more than I don't. Sure yes I can find and do intend to find at some point a "real job" or something more appropriate to being someone's wife in this society... but I would like to do that at my own pace, without a bunch of pressure... ”
“And that even though say you were trying to express feelings of your own, you are just really expressing the same insecurities you've been expressing since day one... and that's a long time... and what else can I say or do... repeat myself endlessly and say over and over again I AM NOT A WHORE!“
I just want to go to work, and pay my bills, and not have to deal with more more more pressure in doing so. No I don't want to sit with my boyfriend and take his money when I can do it myself! I don't want to be a charity case at my job too. I don't ever want to feel the other pressures I was feeling in combination with, the only guy that will give me money is my man... talk about loss of dignity. You know when I don't need money and you come in it's different, when I can just off all night with you and not worry about having to get money from you if I do that it's different... 'What I need from you is to just let me have part of my life back, and trust that I understand the importance of our relationship and your feelings, and let me do what I want to and need to do, without a bunch of other feelings glogging up the fact that it's a job, and if you will let me do it as a job it will be a job, but if you continue to view it as "my other lover" we are never going to be ok”
“Find a way to trust me, my heart, and my feelings for you. Trust that I respect you more than that, that I respect my damn self more than that. “
“I feel more and more as time passes and the same insecurities are not ever laid to rest, that you will never have faith or believe that I love you and want to be with you, and would do my damndest to try not to hurt you.... that you will always assume the worst and act accordingly, and that in the end I will be the one that ends up hurt because you can't let go of your fears and stop judging me in the worst possible light (until you talk to me, but not after you make a fool of me, or break some )”
“When is it my turn, when do you give back to me what i gave, and just trust me and comfort me and support me... without making it about you .... can this one thing this one time be about me... and what i need... and what you are willing to deal with within yourself in order to be there for me... instead of me having to in the midst of everything trying to deal with how not to set you off, or how to have a 3 hour conversation with you about your feelings when all I can see right now is my wrecked car, and $1,400 in bills... and the fact that i am letting my mother down (she’s mentally unstable) by not doing something.... and these are my feelings but we can't get to them through yours, and it's frustrating, and a little heart breaking”
It is always your choice, you stay or you go, you don't demand she change from how she was when you meet.
I still don't understand what you want. You want to stay because you sound like you do, you just don't want her to dance. Your not getting that option and if you can't take it, then you need to man up and be honest with her, because she deserves to hear that you feel like you are sharing her and you can't. She hears the BS at the club, if you are going to break up with her, she has earned the right to the truth.
It doesn't seem like you've made a lot of head way. This is always going to be an issue for you (trust me, it would be a big issue for me!), and your girlfriend is clearly unwilling to find another form of employment. You're tired of knowing she's being mauled by horny dudes when she goes to her job, and she's tired of the endless conversations about your feelings. Maybe the two of you need to put this relationship to rest.
All the mental acrobatics in the world won't make you "o.k." with what she does. As wonderful as she is, there are other wonderful women out there who aren't strippers.
Good luck...
I think your at a point where its not about her job any more, but the way you deal with your own feelings. You can't just wish it would go away, and you can't just throw your feelings at her. If you cannot quietly handle yourself for that one night a week, or whenever she is at work, then your making your issues hers, but not dealing with them in a positive proactive way.
To be honest, this will never work, because you really want her job to go away, and it ain't. That means YOU go away, simply because you cannot accept that it is, what it is, and not likely to change.
I guarantee she will leave any way, when she has had enough of your continued inability to deal with the reality of your own making. Your simply not adjusting to HER reality very well. (not easy for any one to, realisticly)
I think she already knows that your feelings are typical of some guys, but that won't mean she will put up with it. Nor should she have to.
Your are not compatible enough to sustain this relationship at this time because you can't work together to solve your issues to the benefit of you both.
This relationship won't go that far. In the future don't date strippers and expect them to change because you want them to. It don't work that way.
I really see this as YOUR problem, not hers.
YOU can't deal with it.
So... leave.
If you REALLY don't want to leave, you HAVE to think of it as her JOB, and not as her "other lover". No choice on that.
So... your choices are this:
1. Leave
2. Accept that she is a dancer, it's her job, just like you'd have to accept her job if she was a secretary in an all male envirionment.
You have no other options. SHE should not have to quit her job for YOU. Would you quit your (lucrative) job for her? Would you throw away a job you like, that you're good at, and that makes a lot of money just because your girlfriend didn't like some of the people you work with? Or didn't like your clients? Of course you wouldn't! You'd think she was overly demanding to even ask!
BUT--if you can't switch the way you think, I suggest you move on. You have absolutely NO RIGHT to ask her to change.
First off, ultimatums don't work, especially when it's her job. Secondly, if you can't genuinely support her, faking it won't cut it, she'll leave you before you leave her. You're just setting yourself up for heartbreak.
If you have doubts, and you certainly do, break it off now so you can protect your ego and then you won't have to come back here asking everyone on here how to get her back.
Threads merged for the whole story.
Short form question – my girlfriend and I are now in a very unhealthy relationship. I want to know what strategy to pursue to communicate I want to end it. She's cheated on me. I accused her of it but never presented any facts. I snooped her email but don't want to admit that. I'd done it once before a year ago and promised not to do it again.
I do want this to end as amicably as possible; giving me the best chance at closure, and her the least damage as possible.
I don't want to throw out all the facts, basically calling her a lying whore, and walk away. If I admit to snooping, it's just more justification for what she did perhaps. But I have enough other facts that it is a hard way ti lie herself out of anyway.
Nor do I want to just tell her this just isn't working for me, and then see me as another jealous and suspicious guy that was too weak and had simply had no reason to not trust her since I never even confronted her.
I'd like me to get the closure and self-respect I need – I already feel humiliated and destroyed – but I'd like for her to see enough truth to understand that half of the stupid things I did was because of her actions – until now she's just pointed to all my flaws and said I need to work on 'me' and not on 'us' right now, because I'm the one that keeps not trusting her and breaking her boundaries.
And the deep details for those with more time and interest (THANK YOU!!!):
Just had 2 year anniversary with my girlfriend. The first 1.5 years felt like the real thing, fantastic romantic love, one of a kind soulmate, gets ME in every way, etc, etc. I'm 35. Was married for 5 years. This was the most amazing relationship I'd ever been in. Though there were some capatibility issues regarding her work, her previous kids, she's a night-owl that likes to stay at home, I'm a daytime adventurer, etc.
About 3 months ago we started falling apart... I did some things wrong in regards to my ex-wife - I didn't sleep with her but basically made my girlfriend feel betrayed or unsafe that I might go back to her. There were 2-3 small-medium events over the course of 9 months or so. I take accountability for that.
But in response my girlfriend pulled away, I became insecure and suspicious and broke a few of her boundaries – some she knew about and was angry at, and eventually I read her email and found the proof – though she didn't know that. I finally gave in and snooped and found email evidence that she said to her lover "I cheated on him, so that tells me that my feelings obviously aren't what they used to be. I love him but wasn't in love with him anymore."
I was mortified and in the worst pain of my life. I did struggle with my own guilt for causing this environment, all the while trying to reaffirm there's never a reason to cheat. And of course then the big conundrum, what to do? Confront her with the evidence that shows you were spying, or simply walk away and never get that closure. If you give her the facts that I did gain honestly, it might be enough to show that I'm not being just another jealous that doesn't trust her.
I was devastated obviously. We had a big blow out and she wanted to 'start over completely' with me. Right or wrong, I tried to understand and decide if I could forgive her. She had a right to be angry and hurt, but not to go outside the relationship. A month later and we were much, much closer again - our affection and fun and love had come back. Her lover had left the state on business for 2 months so I knew she wasn't cheating still. And I wanted to confront her but never could. Then he came back. He was back a week and had written her to come to him. She didn't write him back; not even to say she was re-committed to me. Nor did she go to him.
We got into another big argument and she was yelling at me how good she had been to me. In the last month she had been amazing and self-sacrificing to make me happy; she made true efforts to build what we used to have. But in her constant attacks on me about how good she was, I yelled back, "so you never lied to me, you never cheated on me?"
Well, in her mind I was just another man calling her a whore and not trusting her. That was always a hot-button item for her and she turned it into the obvious defensive mechanisms or sarcasm and outrage.
We didn't talk for days. And now just are in limbo. It's obvious we need to end this. I must break the fantasy of, if I can just keep her happy and satisfied, she'll always stay faithful. I guess that's every person, right? But we're going to hurt each other and let each other down... it's what you do then that truly matters.
I'd hurt her many times and she'd always bounced back... this time I think she just felt differently... more hurt, more angry, completely unsafe and insecure, and fully aware that after almost 2 years, I still hadn't fully accepted who she was since she knew she could never be a 'traditional' wife. And it was proof I didn't love her enough to give up my dreams of how I wanted my life to be... lifestyle does matter.
Anyway, I just worry so much about not getting my closure if I just walk away. I've been cheated on in the past, and I could never begin to heal until they admitted it... or I could at least tell them what I thought happened or knew happened.
It will be true grief and loss for many weeks and months... I don't want to make it worse by feeling lack of self-respect by feeling like not only did I not confront her, she is going to simply see my failures as a guy that was too jealous and suspicious and never had a reason to not trust her, good riddance if you don't want to keep trying and want to leave.
I do love this woman. I do think she's been in a lot of unhealthy relationships in the past. I don't want to pile on her and destroy her already weak self-image by knifing out a confession from her and in effect actually calling her a lying whore. But neither do I want to just walk away and have her think that there goes another man that didn't trust me for no reason. Or for stupid reasons phone calls from male friends too late at night. Those simply aren't the reasons I doubt her; but in her mind I have no other proof - after waiting 6 weeks since anything happened, she's got to imagine I would have confronted her long ago.
Part of me wants to tell her how I see the last 3 months happening – that it wasn't some deep character flaw within me that made me clingy and suspicious, since she was actually cheating though I had no proof yet. And then present a portion of my facts. And how I didn't know what to do because we were already doing better when I started filling in the final pieces.
Or do I just walk away... and let time be the healer.
That tit for tat stuff to get even, is childish. You simply tell her your feelings have changed, and you see no future with her, and since the love is gone, so are you.
The way your trying to do things is immature and messy. Now make a fast clean break so you can get beyond this.
Break ups hurt, even under the best conditions, so she will have to deal with it, as will you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Oh.
Ok. My intentions were truly in the best interest of both of us... but I can see your point that my closure, my moving on should be about me and my path - and not about what I do or don't communicate to her. If that indeed is what you're trying to say.
Thanks.
That's exactly what I was saying. In trying to spare her feelings about a break up( which you can't do) you do more harm than good and all you can do is be civil, and direct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Can someone change the title of this question. I know it was merged, but thought I would get a lot more responses with a new title... no one is going to read through all of this or comment... her job is really a moot point here and it's misleading.
No trust left, how best to break up for true closure?
I no longer feel the same way about you, somewhere along the way our destinations changed and I feel it's best if we both go our separate ways
Honestly, from what you've wrote she's expecting this conversation at some point. You are not fooling her into thinking everything is perfect, she knows it's not and is just keeping you around to take herself down before she takes herself out. You might as well do it first.
Seems to me every response will be about the same. So just do it, and be done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuff
Thanks... this was a good answer. Unfortunately I'm just about genetically programmed to not be able to do 'brevity'. Thanks for the forum... I'll do my best.
HARSHNESS ALERT.Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog9
Her job a 'moot point'?? How quickly you forget the long involved posts you wrote.
My view is that you were always trying to find the trigger which would give you the excuse for finishing the relationship. You always saw yourself as the victim to her sexuality because of her job. Your insecurity and jealousy drove a wedge between you as you kept obsessing about what she did with other men when she danced. You couldn't let it go.
The things we most fear are the things we most often create. The magic wand of your fear has manifested an infidelity and now your fears and obsession are justified. You can now safely say that it was all her fault and feel magnanimous in wanting to end the relationship gently, whilst bleating about how painful it will be for you to get over it (another obsession in the making).
At least be honest with yourself and stop being such a martyr.
Let her know that you're unable to be in the relationship any more and take responsibility for your part in it. If you end it, for heaven's sake don't contact her any more. Continue to get professional help for your tendency to humiliate and destroy yourself.
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